Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Jim2007

jem wrote: »

It is a way of joining up all govt departments etc- advantages for the permanent govt yes. advantages for the citizens of ireland no.
How long before banks require it to open accounts.
How long before Insurance companies require it
I can see a legal case been taken on this.

This is the standard way it works all over Europe, if it works for 500m people I'm sure the Irish can manage it as well.

In my wallet I have a credit card sized Swiss national identity card and it is very convenient:
- It can be used for European travel, so no need for a passport
- It can be renewed at the post office in about 10 mins
- It is the only thing needed to open bank accounts, HP agreements etc
- It is the only identity document needed when signing contracts etc...
- To prove to the post office that you are the recipient for registered post etc...
- It is the easy way to satisfy the Schengen requirement to be able to prove your identity and right to be there at all times.
- It is used by all organisations, state and private, to identify people before confidential information is handed out - pension information, health insurance, reports etc. No one will talk to you until they have first confirmed your identity via the card.

I have not renewed my Irish passport in over five years, simply because I could not be bothered collecting up the documents required by the Irish Embassy to do it.

drake70

Jim2007 wrote: »

I have not renewed my Irish passport in over five years, simply because I could not be bothered collecting up the documents required by the Irish Embassy to do it.

Can you renew your passport online?
https://passportonline.dfa.ie/

Sierra Oscar

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What was your source for 'literally' knowing this for years? Was this stated in any public policy document?

This article is from Ocrober 2011 - New social welfare identity cards to be issued next week

The department says that the card will act as a ‘key’ for access to public services and will reduce resources currently required to verify a person’s identity. It also says that the card will replace current cards in use such as the Free Travel Card and Social Services Card.

This is from a few years back when it replaced the Free Travel card.

Public Services Card Free Travel will replace both the current free travel pass and the social services
card. Therefore if you currently collect your payment at the Post Office your Public Services Card Free Travel will be the card you use for this purpose. It will also be your free travel pass.

...

In the short term yes, you may continue to use your current Free Travel Pass. However, ignoring requests to register may cause future potential problems accessing public services, including possible suspension of social welfare payments or free travel entitlements if SAFE registration has not been
completed.

Another article from 2011 - New biometric ID card aims to prevent welfare fraud

Here's a Dáil discussion on it in 2015 - Public Services Card Data

25. Deputy Seán Kyne Information on Seán Kyne Zoom on Seán Kyne asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection Information on Joan Burton Zoom on Joan Burton if she will report on the introduction of the new public social services card; the number of cards issued since the new system was introduced; and her plans that all persons in receipt of a social welfare support will receive one. [17279/15]

Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton): Information on Joan Burton Zoom on Joan Burton The purpose of the Public Services Card (PSC) is to enable individuals to gain access to public services more efficiently and with a minimum of duplication of effort, while at the same time preserving their privacy to the maximum extent possible. The PSC is designed to replace other cards within the public sector such as the free travel pass and the social services card of this Department and to make it easy for providers of public services to verify the identity of customers.

Considerable progress has been made in the roll out of the PSC. Approximately 1.4 million cards, including some 420,000 Free Travel Variants, have now been produced.

Face-to-face registration, which involves the capture of an individual's photograph and signature and the verification of identity data already held by the Department, is taking place countrywide in 94 offices of the Department. Selected low-risk customers, whose identity is regularly authenticated in a face-to-face process, have also been invited to avail of a 'postal' registration process. Registration is required for individual applicants for a Personal Public Service (PPS) Number and people applying for or in receipt of social protection payments or benefits.

The PSC project is a key initiative in the Public Service Reform Plan, with the aim to expand its use to cover a greater range of public services, e.g., later this year, the National Driver Licence Service registration process is being extended to include registration for a PSC. This effort is being overseen by an interdepartmental steering committee.

So yeah, this has been well flagged for many years. It has been highlighted in numerous Government / Civil Service publications.

It's gas that some people are jumping at the opportunity to cricitise this just because they heard it in the news. Hundreds of thousands of people have been using these cards to access social welfare payments and other State services for quite some time now and we haven't heard many complaints.

Sam Russell

More on this from the Minister for Social Protection.

Regina Doherty says public services card now mandatory for welfare

LoLth

why is this card the only form of ID accepted for booking a driving theory test

http://www.theorytest.ie/driver-theory-test/public-services-card-psc-id-policy/

and a passport (required to get the PSC) no longer valid?

I do not understand why Dtt/RSA need to know a PPSN when a passport has been sufficient proof of identify for years. (its the lack of either/or that confuses me)

circular flexing

Jim2007 wrote: »

This is the standard way it works all over Europe, if it works for 500m people I'm sure the Irish can manage it as well.

I'm sure they can too. And I'm also sure that all these cards are enabled by legislation that has been passed by the national parliament in that country. The problem here is that there is no legislation backing the PSC. Go through all the acts and all the SI and there is zero mention of it.

Sam Russell

LoLth wrote: »

why is this card the only form of ID accepted for booking a driving theory test

http://www.theorytest.ie/driver-theory-test/public-services-card-psc-id-policy/

and a passport (required to get the PSC) no longer valid?

I do not understand why Dtt/RSA need to know a PPSN when a passport has been sufficient proof of identify for years. (its the lack of either/or that confuses me)

The new system for validating ID used by the PSC and is sufficient for proving you are who you say you are. If you have proved who you are to the satisfaction of the PSC, then the rest of the Gov services accept that validation. [At least that is my understanding]. Validation and security is improving with every iteration - current passports are much more secure than they used to be.

In the future, this is the way ID will be validated. Missing from the card before it can be an official ID is the person's address (Eircode) and the person's Nationality/Residency status. Perhaps these will be added in the future, however, I would have thought that the driver's licence would be a better basis for a national ID card as I think it has more robust security built in.

blanch152

circular flexing wrote: »

I'm sure they can too. And I'm also sure that all these cards are enabled by legislation that has been passed by the national parliament in that country. The problem here is that there is no legislation backing the PSC. Go through all the acts and all the SI and there is zero mention of it.

Another frequent lie told on social media, here is the legislation:


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/37/section/9/enacted/en/html


(1) The Minister may issue a card (in this Act referred to as a ‘public services card’) to a person in such form as the Minister considers fit for the purposes of carrying out a transaction.

(1A) Where a public services card is issued to a person the following information shall be inscribed on it:

(a) the name of that person;

(b) the personal public service number of that person;

(c) a photograph of that person;

(d) the signature of that person;

(e) the issue number of the public services card;

(f) the expiry date of the public services card;

(g) such other information (if any) as may be prescribed by the Minister.

(1B) A public services card shall in addition to the information referred to in subsection (1A) contain the following information which shall be in non-legible form and be capable of being recovered by electronic means:

(a) the name of that person;

(b) the personal public service number of that person;

(c) the date of birth of that person;

(d) the place of birth of that person;

(e) the sex of that person;

(f) the nationality of that person;

(g) all former surnames (if any) of that person;

(h) all former surnames (if any) of the mother of that person;

(i) a photograph of that person;

(j) the signature of that person;

(k) the issue number of the public services card;

(l) the expiry date of the public services card;

(m) such other information (if any) as may be prescribed by the Minister.”.

Dark Rabbit

I can see this issue growing legs now, the Irish Council of Civil Liberties has called for clarification. I think this card is such a great fraud prevention measure but can see this issue until the cards are no longer mandatory

Sam Russell

Dark Rabbit wrote: »

I can see this issue growing legs now, the Irish Council of Civil Liberties has called for clarification. I think this card is such a great fraud prevention measure but can see the tinfoil hat wearing gang pushing this issue until the cards are no longer mandatory

- or they become fully mandatory - that is they become official ID cards.

Alternatively, if Ryanair accept them for travel purpses, they will become very popular.

AndrewJRenko

Interesting comment on the fraud savings issue;

https://twitter.com/rossamcmahon/status/900431662647050241

And the ID card is in the news today;

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0825/899911-public-service-card-scheme/

LoLth

Sam Russell wrote: »

The new system for validating ID used by the PSC and is sufficient for proving you are who you say you are. If you have proved who you are to the satisfaction of the PSC, then the rest of the Gov services accept that validation. [At least that is my understanding]. Validation and security is improving with every iteration - current passports are much more secure than they used to be.

You need a passport and a ppsn to get a psc. So why is the psc the ONLY form of ID accepted for a function that is not ppsn related and why is a passport no longer enough? The only difference is the ppsn aspect of the card.

michaelp97

Think I read something about the public service card before about how it could become like a leap card topped up with the welfare payment but people would not be able to use it to purchase luxury goods like alcohol and cigarettes

AndrewJRenko

Dark Rabbit wrote: »

I can see this issue growing legs now, the Irish Council of Civil Liberties has called for clarification. I think this card is such a great fraud prevention measure but can see the tinfoil hat wearing gang pushing this issue until the cards are no longer mandatory

As mentioned above, the €60m project has prevented €1.7m of fraud. Not quite sure if that's a huge success.

Karsini wrote: »

Personally I don't understand why a national ID card system is such a bad thing? Other countries have it.

And other countries don't have it also. The UK, which has the closest legal and government system to ours threw it out before it got going.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards

Chips Lovell

LoLth wrote: »

You need a passport and a ppsn to get a psc.

You don't need a passport. They'll issue one to you if you don't have one.

Chips Lovell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

As mentioned above, the €60m project has prevented €1.7m of fraud. Not quite sure if that's a huge success.

€60 million was the overall cost of the project.

€1.7 million was the total fraud saving until the end of July 2016.

That only relates to fraud where the person has been caught. It can't quantify how many people stopped committed fraud as a result of the PSC:

The Accounting Officer pointed out that the savings recorded relate to the cases where DSP actually caught the person using a false identity. The Department cannot assess the actual savings that have been made in cases where a person signed off or claimed they no longer needed social assistance/benefit instead of going through the SAFE registration process

The €1.7 million was part of the an overall saving of €2.5 million achieved up to that date.

Social Protection said that fraud savings were not the main goal of the PSC:

DSP stated that the main benefit of the PSC is in the saving of time previously spent re-verifying identity when a member of the public accesses a public service. DSP considers the reduction in the number of people who fraudulently claim to be someone else and a reduction in the potential for forgery as ancillary benefits. DSP did not set a savings target in this area given the difficulties in assessing how many people have been or are engaged in identity fraud

blanch152

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

€60 million was the overall cost of the project.

€1.7 million was the total fraud saving until the end of July 2016.

That only relates to fraud where the person has been caught. It can't quantify how many people stopped committed fraud as a result of the PSC:



The €1.7 million was part of the an overall saving of €2.5 million achieved up to that date.

Social Protection said that fraud savings were not the main goal of the PSC:

None of those facts will stop those on Twitter with an agenda from spouting rubbish about only €1.7m being saved.

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And other countries don't have it also. The UK, which has the closest legal and government system to ours threw it out before it got going.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards

Other countries don't have it?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country

"A national identity card is defined as an identity card with photo, usable as an identity card at least inside the country, and which is issued by an official authority. Driver's licenses and other cards indicating certain permissions are not counted as national identity cards."

"According to a 1996 publication by Privacy International, around 100 countries had enacted laws making identity cards compulsory."

"As noted above, certain countries do not have national ID cards, but have other official documents that play the same role in practice (e.g. driver's license for the United States). While a country may not make it de jure compulsory to own or carry an identity document, it may be de facto strongly recommended to do so in order to facilitate certain procedures."

AndrewJRenko

blanch152 wrote: »

None of those facts will stop those on Twitter with an agenda from spouting rubbish about only €1.7m being saved.

So why don't you tell us how much was actually saved?

blanch152 wrote: »

Other countries don't have it?

Why the question mark above? Other countries don't have it - that is a fact.

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So why don't you tell us how much was actually saved?


Why the question mark above? Other countries don't have it - that is a fact.

Over 100 countries do have it!!!!!!

murphaph

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

As mentioned above, the €60m project has prevented €1.7m of fraud. Not quite sure if that's a huge success.


And other countries don't have it also. The UK, which has the closest legal and government system to ours threw it out before it got going.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards

You're seriously using something Theresa May did as an example of best practice?!

_Kaiser_

Regardless of the merits - or otherwise - of this card, the way this has been handled by our FG Government is yet another mess..."no it's not mandatory.. but we'll accept only it for x, y, z with more to come"

It's this underhanded means of implementing what is a mandatory national ID card that concerns me. Who has access to the data? For what purpose? Under what controls? What other bodies/companies (eg: contractors retained to supply services to departments) have access?

All basic and important questions but ones which are being ignored in the rush to get everyone on the system... and no, "but it's handy!" isn't an answer!

Donal55

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Regardless of the merits - or otherwise - of this card, the way this has been handled by our FG Government is yet another mess..."no it's not mandatory.. but we'll only accept it for x, y, z with more to come"

It's this underhanded means of implementing what is a mandatory national ID card that concerns me. Who has access to the data? For what purpose? Under what controls? What other bodies/companies (eg: contractors retained to supply services to departments) have access?

All basic and important questions but ones which are being ignored in the rush to get everyone on the system... and no, "but it's handy!" isn't an answer!

The other govt party ie FF, have been keeping quiet on this issue up until now. I s'pose they are waiting to see which way the wind blows.

_Kaiser_

Donal55 wrote: »

The other govt party ie FF, have been keeping quiet on this issue up until now. I s'pose they are waiting to see which way the wind blows.

Nothing new in that of course, but FG have proven themselves dangerous on matters like this - look at the whole IW PPS number debacle, and the threats that initially were made if people didn't comply with registration.

Here we go again... don't get this card, we'll cut off your pension/services.

Turnipman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So why don't you tell us how much was actually saved?

Probably because nobody knows.

Savings from fraud are - as you probably didn't realise - ongoing. Hence if we look at a conservative timescale of 10 years, the estimated saving would be €17m.

recedite

OSI wrote: »

It's not remotely an ID. All it has on it is your name, Photo and PPS number.

That's all the info an ID card needs.The PPS number then leads to more info on nationality etc.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Missing from the card before it can be an official ID is the person's address (Eircode) and the person's Nationality/Residency status. Perhaps these will be added in the future...

Your address is not part of your identity, its only the place where you are currently living (or mostly living).

IMO intoducing this card gradually in this way is a smart move. In a few years there will be hardly anyone who hasn't got one, despite it not being "mandatory". There will be more people with these ID cards than have either passports or driving licences.

And who are the people most likely to militantly resist mandatory ID cards? Yep, the same ones who resisted "bin charges" and "water charges"; those on social welfare.
But this time, they will be the first to sign up for it. Nice!

AndrewJRenko

murphaph wrote: »

You're seriously using something Theresa May did as an example of best practice?!

I know, that did feel a bit icky - but it is an interesting comparison regardless, given the similarities between the two countries.

blanch152 wrote: »

Over 100 countries do have it!!!!!!

Which would mean that about 100 don't have it, including many of the best developed democracies;

Canada, Australia, Denmark, New Zealand, Norway, UK

blanch152

For something that was introduced in legislation in 2010 under an FF/Green government and has been part of everyday life since 2012, there is an awful lot of faux outrage.

While I have seen lots of that outrage online and in some media circles, which politicians are protesting this?

cbreeze

The PSC card is not an ID. The main reason is that your date of birth is not shown. That's what they told me in the Intreo office anyway.

I agree with everyone having the PSC if it helps to reduce fraud - which we all pay for in the end.

SPDUB

cbreeze wrote: »

The PSC card is not an ID. The main reason is that your date of birth is not shown. That's what they told me in the Intreo office anyway.

Indeed it is not acceptable ID to open a bank account along with a bill for that address , you are required to bring a birth cert as well whereas a Driving Licence or Passport along with a bill is acceptable

AndrewJRenko

cbreeze wrote: »

I agree with everyone having the PSC if it helps to reduce fraud - which we all pay for in the end.

Just for balance - we all also pay for the costs of the system itself, which at present, outweigh the cost savings by a factor of x20.

blanch152 wrote: »

Another frequent lie told on social media, here is the legislation:


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/37/section/9/enacted/en/html

There is nothing in that legislation about it being used for driving licences or student grants or other services.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This article is from Ocrober 2011 - New social welfare identity cards to be issued next week



This is from a few years back when it replaced the Free Travel card.



Another article from 2011 - New biometric ID card aims to prevent welfare fraud

Here's a Dáil discussion on it in 2015 - Public Services Card Data



So yeah, this has been well flagged for many years. It has been highlighted in numerous Government / Civil Service publications.

It's gas that some people are jumping at the opportunity to cricitise this just because they heard it in the news. Hundreds of thousands of people have been using these cards to access social welfare payments and other State services for quite some time now and we haven't heard many complaints.

Again. nothing in those articles about it becoming a general public service card, outside of the realm of Dept Social Protection. The reference to driving licences there is the reverse of what has actually happened. They stated it it was planned to enhance the driving licence registration to include the application for the PSC. What happened was the reverse - that you must have your PSC BEFORE you apply for a driving licence.

blanch152 wrote: »

For something that was introduced in legislation in 2010 under an FF/Green government and has been part of everyday life since 2012, there is an awful lot of faux outrage.

The issue is that the scope and purpose is now changing significantly, from the original 'welfare card' to a much broader cross-departmental role - with significant privacy and data protection implications.

Do we have appropriate IT security skills and expertise in the public sector to keep this data safe?

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just for balance - we all also pay for the costs of the system itself, which at present, outweigh the cost savings by a factor of x20.


There is nothing in that legislation about it being used for driving licences or student grants or other services.


Again. nothing in those articles about it becoming a general public service card, outside of the realm of Dept Social Protection. The reference to driving licences there is the reverse of what has actually happened. They stated it it was planned to enhance the driving licence registration to include the application for the PSC. What happened was the reverse - that you must have your PSC BEFORE you apply for a driving licence.



The issue is that the scope and purpose is now changing significantly, from the original 'welfare card' to a much broader cross-departmental role - with significant privacy and data protection implications.

Do we have appropriate IT security skills and expertise in the public sector to keep this data safe?

No, the issue that has brought it into the public arena is the woman refusing to get one for her pension. Do you agree with her stance?

recedite

cbreeze wrote: »

The PSC card is not an ID. The main reason is that your date of birth is not shown. That's what they told me in the Intreo office anyway.

As soon as they scan it, or plug the PPS no. into a computer terminal, they will have your date of birth etc. if they need it.

Granted, the age is not written on the actual card, so it would not do for buying alcohol in an off licence.

But if a person is carrying a card, and you can match them to some positive biometric info (eg a photo, at least, which also gives an idea of their age) as displayed or stored in a chip on the card, and the person's name and PPS number is also displayed there, then that's a positive ID of the person.

Stheno

Is the psc linked to your mygov id??

jimmycrackcorm

_Kaiser_ wrote:

Regardless of the merits - or otherwise - of this card, the way this has been handled by our FG Government is yet another mess..."no it's not mandatory.. but we'll accept only it for x, y, z with more to come"

How is this a mess? It's like arguing that the leap card should not have been introduced because out would be an inconvenience for people who can only handle using cash.

Still the right way to do things is to provide a incentive to take it up, like the way leap cards are more popular than using cash ( including those with id).

_Kaiser_ wrote:

It's this underhanded means of implementing what is a mandatory national ID card that concerns me. Who has access to the data? For what purpose? Under what controls? What other bodies/companies (eg: contractors retained to supply services to departments) have access?

If you drive then the law states you must carry your mandatory id card (driving licence).

I still don't get the link to being a national id card as most people don't need it and, you're not obligated to carry it and nearly everyone already has a passport.

_Kaiser_

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

How is this a mess? It's like arguing that the leap card should not have been introduced because out would be an inconvenience for people who can only handle using cash.

Still the right way to do things is to provide a incentive to take it up, like the way leap cards are more popular than using cash ( including those with id).

It's a mess because rather than come out and say "we're thinking of implementing a national ID card" and having a proper debate on the issue, they're sneaking it in by the back door by taking this card and expanding it way beyond its original scope instead.

If you drive then the law states you must carry your mandatory id card (driving licence).

I still don't get the link to being a national id card as most people don't need it and, you're not obligated to carry it and nearly everyone already has a passport.

If you want a driver license renewal... you need it
If you want a passport... you need it
If you access any welfare services... you need it

And it's been confirmed today that it's to be expanded further.

You can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is this is another underhanded, solo run by an arrogant Government who thinks they can just push through whatever takes their fancy without mandate - in this case by dressing it up as combating welfare fraud (which no-one objects to) but yet muddying the debate so the focus isn't on the REAL issue - a mandatory national ID card with little to no detail on where that info will reside, who it'll be shared with, under what controls, and for what other purposes.

Or do you really believe our present Government and civil service to be competent and professional enough to make such decisions about YOUR data themselves?

oscarBravo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which would mean that about 100 don't have it, including many of the best developed democracies;

Canada, Australia, Denmark, New Zealand, Norway, UK

Let's take one of those best developed democracies: Denmark. In Denmark, everyone has an ID number. When you change address, you must inform the government, so the government knows where everyone lives at all times.

But that's the only entity you need to inform when you change address. Anyone who needs to know your address has been given your ID number, and they've registered with the government. If you change address, the government tells anyone who needs to know.

That's how bureaucracy works in a well developed democracy. If it was proposed here, we'd lose our sh*t. Hell, we can't even introduce water charges without half the country having a stroke.

Was reading this IT article today when I noticed the following:

It emerged in May that the card is to be made a requirement for all passport and driving licence applications shortly, including renewals.

I thought it was going to be required for initial passport applications only? Can't see the sense in having to have one if you are renewing a passport, especially if the old one hasn't expired yet. It's a valid ID before it runs out.

ianobrien

Just as a point of info. I went to my local social welfare office today to apply for a PSC card. I had no appointment but brought my passport and my most recent P60. After confirming my name, place and date of birth, the welfare officer then proceeded to tell me my parents name off a copy of my birth cert that she had pulled up on screen. A few more clicks and she had my address. If that sort of information is stored in the card (or if the card points to where it is on the central database) it's going to make applying for anything from the government a whole lot easier. The whole process took less than 5 minutes from walking in to walking out.

My own view is that if you want anything off the government (social welfare payments, driving licence, free bus tickets etc) you need to have ID, and this is their ID card. Hell, I can't get into work without showing my employers ID card. Me waving my driving licence won't leave me into the lab.....

Turnipman

Deleted User wrote: »

Was reading this IT article today when I noticed the following:



I thought it was going to be required for initial passport applications only? Can't see the sense in having to have one if you are renewing a passport, especially if the old one hasn't expired yet. It's a valid ID before it runs out.

All that you are required to do is to input your PSC number when applying for a licence or passport renewal. At least that's what I had to do in May when I renewed my passport.

uck51js9zml2yt

I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

If you've nothing to hide then it's not a problem.
Motor tax and vehicle registration are also being looked at. Having worked in motor tax it's a good development.

dense

jonnycivic wrote: »

I read a little about this yesterday, it seemed to imply that she had no other form of national ID (Drivers lisence/passport) and wanted her to get the card to use as the ID.

I believe the pension is to do with her late husband??

That's good, I first thought that it was the lady who was looking for a suitable "home" and a place in UCD.

dense

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's a mess because rather than come out and say "we're thinking of implementing a national ID card" and having a proper debate on the issue, they're sneaking it in by the back door by taking this card and expanding it way beyond its original scope instead.



If you want a driver license renewal... you need it
If you want a passport... you need it
If you access any welfare services... you need it

And it's been confirmed today that it's to be expanded further.

You can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is this is another underhanded, solo run by an arrogant Government who thinks they can just push through whatever takes their fancy without mandate - in this case by dressing it up as combating welfare fraud (which no-one objects to) but yet muddying the debate so the focus isn't on the REAL issue - a mandatory national ID card with little to no detail on where that info will reside, who it'll be shared with, under what controls, and for what other purposes.

Or do you really believe our present Government and civil service to be competent and professional enough to make such decisions about YOUR data themselves?

What's wrong with the state being able to ID someone and their giving to it and taking from it?

There are far too many operating under the radar.

blanch152

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's a mess because rather than come out and say "we're thinking of implementing a national ID card" and having a proper debate on the issue, they're sneaking it in by the back door by taking this card and expanding it way beyond its original scope instead.



If you want a driver license renewal... you need it
If you want a passport... you need it
If you access any welfare services... you need it

And it's been confirmed today that it's to be expanded further.

You can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is this is another underhanded, solo run by an arrogant Government who thinks they can just push through whatever takes their fancy without mandate - in this case by dressing it up as combating welfare fraud (which no-one objects to) but yet muddying the debate so the focus isn't on the REAL issue - a mandatory national ID card with little to no detail on where that info will reside, who it'll be shared with, under what controls, and for what other purposes.

Or do you really believe our present Government and civil service to be competent and professional enough to make such decisions about YOUR data themselves?

They did have a debate about it back in 2010 when it was introduced by a FF/Green government!!!

uck51js9zml2yt

There was some ambivalence from state agencies initially concerning the cards but when they saw the results social welfare were having in dealing with fraud they began to see the benefits and signed up.
The idea is to have a single online portal which people can access services through, all linked to your card. You will just need a single account

Hotblack Desiato

oscarBravo wrote: »

There are clear advantages to having such a card - just ask anyone living in a country that has them. The disadvantages seem to mostly boil down to "I don't trust the government".

Those who really don't trust the government are of course free to not claim payments from the government.

jem wrote: »

It is a way of joining up all govt departments etc- advantages for the permanent govt yes. advantages for the citizens of ireland no.
How long before banks require it to open accounts.
How long before Insurance companies require it
I can see a legal case been taken on this.

Bring it on - it'll cut down on a great deal of fraud especially among non-nationals.

jem wrote: »

I would put money on this being a civil servant idea as opposed to an actual minister.

You may be right - ministers have no balls in doing necessary things that a few people object to.

SPDUB

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. ...........equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

.

So why is the Government only claiming 1.7m in fraud if large numbers are being caught .

Sounds like usual presentation flannel more than real figures .

marcus001

blanch152 wrote: »

For something that was introduced in legislation in 2010 under an FF/Green government and has been part of everyday life since 2012, there is an awful lot of faux outrage.

While I have seen lots of that outrage online and in some media circles, which politicians are protesting this?

If you think it's faux outrage you clearly don't understand the issue.

People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.

marcus001

cbreeze wrote: »

The PSC card is not an ID. The main reason is that your date of birth is not shown. That's what they told me in the Intreo office anyway.

I agree with everyone having the PSC if it helps to reduce fraud - which we all pay for in the end.

It's not an ID for the purposes of buying drink, but if it has your name and photo it's ID.

What if the reduction in fraud is virtually nothing? What if the real fraud is that this definitely isn't about fraud?

marcus001

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

If you've nothing to hide then it's not a problem.
Motor tax and vehicle registration are also being looked at. Having worked in motor tax it's a good development.

As someone whose never claimed the dole I really don't see why I should have to get one of these pleb cards just so I can renew my driver's licence.