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Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I do agree that we need a proper debate about a national ID card, but I'm not sure we're capable of having proper debates in this country.

    There are clear advantages to having such a card - just ask anyone living in a country that has them. The disadvantages seem to mostly boil down to "I don't trust the government".

    If we were having a proper debate, we could discuss the risks and the necessary measures to mitigate them. But as long as the debate centres around "ID cards bad mkay" then we'll never get to that discussion.

    The debate should be had in stages. The first stage is, do we need them? I think it fails the first test.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    marcus001 wrote: »
    Well they can't implement that system here because not everyone has the card, but once everyone has it it becomes possible to implement it should the "need" arise.

    Slippery slope fallacy.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,800 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    marcus001 wrote: »
    The debate should be had in stages. The first stage is, do we need them? I think it fails the first test.
    That's because you've decided you don't want them, and are arguing from that premise.

    Do we "need" ID cards? No. Are there arguments in favour of ID cards? Yes. Are there arguments against them? Yes.

    If we're going to have the debate in stages, we need to have a grown-up debate. But, as I've said, we're not good at those.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    What I'm driving at was that a passport is a form of identification that people never had any issue with getting, but do have an issue with this identification. What's the difference really?

    The passport has a basis in law, the ID card doesn't

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/4/enacted/en/html


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,337 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I don't think it is correct to compare the PSC card to a national ID card. A national ID card had implications for privacy where it shouldn't be warranted. E.g. Garda stops me on the street, I shouldn't have to carry ID.

    A PSC, just like a passport or driving licence is used for the specific purposes they're intended.

    The concept of going down a slippery slope is imaginary. I'd happily protest if there was a proposal to use it as ID for the purposes it wasn't intended. Otherwise I don't feel objecting to my gym asking me to get in using my membership card.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There two ID cards that appear to be voluntary - the Garda Age ID card for young ones, and the Garda ID card for immigrants. These appear to be quite useful for those that have them.

    The PSC appears to be quite popular with those availing of free travel.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    I genuinely don't get how this is perceived as an ID card. It's just for using services provided by/on behalf of the state. You don't need to have it on you at all times. It's no more a means of identification than a Library Card.
    There two ID cards that appear to be voluntary - the Garda Age ID card for young ones, and the Garda ID card for immigrants. These appear to be quite useful for those that have them.

    The PSC appears to be quite popular with those availing of free travel.

    That's because the PSC card is the free travel ticket now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    murphaph wrote: »
    National ID cards with compulsory registration of abode are actually very convenient. No "utility bill" nonsense when opening bank accounts or getting a mobile phone etc.

    It's not just that the state knows where you are. It also makes it possible for private citizens to find credit defaulters etc. The state can find you through other means.

    The actual carrying of the card is secondary. In Germany it's not compulsory to carry it, just to possess it and keep it up to date with current address.

    THAT A THOUSAND TIMES!!!!!
    In Germany I just need my ID card for everything. No need to spend 5 minutes to print off "genuine" utility bills (that any 12 year old with a laptop and a printer can fake) in order to satisfy this foolproof stupid fcuking requirements in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The passport has a basis in law, the ID card doesn't

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/4/enacted/en/html
    And yet, it has become mandatory for certain services - with no legal basis. Scary.
    A PSC, just like a passport or driving licence is used for the specific purposes they're intended.

    The concept of going down a slippery slope is imaginary. I'd happily protest if there was a proposal to use it as ID for the purposes it wasn't intended.
    You presumably didn't read the link I posted earlier showing how it will be mandatory for access to agfood.ie portal and student grant services. The slippery slope is very, very real - with no debate inside or outside the Oireachtas on the matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    Slippery slope fallacy.

    Slippery slope is one of the most wrongly flagged fallacies of all.

    The slippery slope fallacy is when you say that A leads to C without establishing how A leads to B and B leads to C.

    But if you can establish how A leads to B and B leads to C then its not a fallacy.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    I don't think it is correct to compare the PSC card to a national ID card. A national ID card had implications for privacy where it shouldn't be warranted. E.g. Garda stops me on the street, I shouldn't have to carry ID.

    A PSC, just like a passport or driving licence is used for the specific purposes they're intended.

    The concept of going down a slippery slope is imaginary. I'd happily protest if there was a proposal to use it as ID for the purposes it wasn't intended. Otherwise I don't feel objecting to my gym asking me to get in using my membership card.

    You're missing the point that once everyone has a card for all the various services its required for it then becomes as easy as passing a bill to make it compulsory to carry. There needs to be no debate at that stage, no civil servants to get on board no discussion of the cost of implementation. They just sign a bill and your PSC card becomes a national ID card you are required to carry


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭jem


    It is a way of joining up all govt departments etc- advantages for the permanent govt yes. advantages for the citizens of ireland no.
    How long before banks require it to open accounts.
    How long before Insurance companies require it
    I can see a legal case been taken on this.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The passport has a basis in law, the ID card doesn't

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/4/enacted/en/html

    I'm assuming the government may argue that it's legally entitled to verify the identity of a person claiming a service and that this is now its preferred way of verifying identities.
    marcus001 wrote: »
    Slippery slope is one of the most wrongly flagged fallacies of all.

    The slippery slope fallacy is when you say that A leads to C without establishing how A leads to B and B leads to C.

    But if you can establish how A leads to B and B leads to C then its not a fallacy.

    No, I think you're misunderstanding it there. With a slippery slope argument, the chain of events is known, but what's fallacious is the assumption that the chain is likely or inevitable.

    For example: "We shouldn't introduce a property tax. Sure, €200 a year sounds reasonable but there's nothing to stop the government from jacking it up to €2,000 next year".


  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭bluezulu49


    According to this
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/regina-doherty-says-public-services-card-now-mandatory-for-welfare-1.3198024
    Regina Doherty has said on radio this morning that the psc is now mandatory for welfare payments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    I'm assuming the government may argue that it's legally entitled to verify the identity of a person claiming a service and that this is now its preferred way of verifying identities.



    No, I think you're misunderstanding it there. With a slippery slope argument, the chain of events is known, but what's fallacious is the assumption that the chain is likely or inevitable.

    For example: "We shouldn't introduce a property tax. Sure, €200 a year sounds reasonable but there's nothing to stop the government from jacking it up to €2,000 next year".

    That's a slippery slope argument but a slippery slope argument is not ipso facto fallacious.

    A slippery slope fallacy would be " gay marriage? Next it'll be cousin marriage! :O"

    You see?

    Saying that once the PSC card is mandatory across the board it will be possible for the government to sign a law requiring everyone to carry it. That is not fallacious because one clearly leads to the other.

    Its important we establish that because this issue will come up in this debate a lot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Billgirlylegs


    What?
    It's a Public Services Card. It uses your Personal Public Services Number as an index, rather than your name.
    Each person is allocated a single PPSN, each PPSN refers to one person only (excluding Errors/blunders)
    It will eliminate most errors mixing up Pat Joe Kelly with Patrick J Kelly who lives two houses down the road.
    It will address fraudulent SP / Education / Agriculture etc claims.

    They have studiously avoided (admittedly only to date) not putting your date of birth on the PSC, your address or PPSN on your Passport, and your PPS on your Driving Licence.

    The perceived cunning plan isn't that cunning.
    The Government and Smart ? Have you not listened to them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭jem


    I would put money on this being a civil servant idea as opposed to an actual minister.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    bluezulu49 wrote: »
    According to this
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/regina-doherty-says-public-services-card-now-mandatory-for-welfare-1.3198024
    Regina Doherty has said on radio this morning that the psc is now mandatory for welfare payments.

    It's been reported as if this is a new development. It's not. The Public Services Card was first introduced in 2011 for people receiving social welfare payments. It was well flagged at the time that people would need the new card to access payments and the changeover from the old PPSN card. It was introduced on a phased basis.

    We've literally known for years that this card would be extended to everyone and would become the primary verification scheme for accessing State services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    We've literally known for years that this card would be extended to everyone and would become the primary verification scheme for accessing State services.

    What was your source for 'literally' knowing this for years? Was this stated in any public policy document?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Personally I don't understand why a national ID card system is such a bad thing? Other countries have it. It would also negate the need for me to use my passport as ID when I really shouldn't have to.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    jem wrote: »
    It is a way of joining up all govt departments etc- advantages for the permanent govt yes. advantages for the citizens of ireland no.
    How long before banks require it to open accounts.
    How long before Insurance companies require it
    I can see a legal case been taken on this.

    This is the standard way it works all over Europe, if it works for 500m people I'm sure the Irish can manage it as well.

    In my wallet I have a credit card sized Swiss national identity card and it is very convenient:
    - It can be used for European travel, so no need for a passport
    - It can be renewed at the post office in about 10 mins
    - It is the only thing needed to open bank accounts, HP agreements etc
    - It is the only identity document needed when signing contracts etc...
    - To prove to the post office that you are the recipient for registered post etc...
    - It is the easy way to satisfy the Schengen requirement to be able to prove your identity and right to be there at all times.
    - It is used by all organisations, state and private, to identify people before confidential information is handed out - pension information, health insurance, reports etc. No one will talk to you until they have first confirmed your identity via the card.

    I have not renewed my Irish passport in over five years, simply because I could not be bothered collecting up the documents required by the Irish Embassy to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭drake70


    Jim2007 wrote: »

    I have not renewed my Irish passport in over five years, simply because I could not be bothered collecting up the documents required by the Irish Embassy to do it.

    Can you renew your passport online?
    https://passportonline.dfa.ie/


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    What was your source for 'literally' knowing this for years? Was this stated in any public policy document?

    This article is from Ocrober 2011 - New social welfare identity cards to be issued next week
    The department says that the card will act as a ‘key’ for access to public services and will reduce resources currently required to verify a person’s identity. It also says that the card will replace current cards in use such as the Free Travel Card and Social Services Card.

    This is from a few years back when it replaced the Free Travel card.
    Public Services Card Free Travel will replace both the current free travel pass and the social services
    card. Therefore if you currently collect your payment at the Post Office your Public Services Card Free Travel will be the card you use for this purpose. It will also be your free travel pass.

    ...

    In the short term yes, you may continue to use your current Free Travel Pass. However, ignoring requests to register may cause future potential problems accessing public services, including possible suspension of social welfare payments or free travel entitlements if SAFE registration has not been
    completed.

    Another article from 2011 - New biometric ID card aims to prevent welfare fraud

    Here's a Dáil discussion on it in 2015 - Public Services Card Data
    25. Deputy Seán Kyne Information on Seán Kyne Zoom on Seán Kyne asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection Information on Joan Burton Zoom on Joan Burton if she will report on the introduction of the new public social services card; the number of cards issued since the new system was introduced; and her plans that all persons in receipt of a social welfare support will receive one. [17279/15]

    Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton): Information on Joan Burton Zoom on Joan Burton The purpose of the Public Services Card (PSC) is to enable individuals to gain access to public services more efficiently and with a minimum of duplication of effort, while at the same time preserving their privacy to the maximum extent possible. The PSC is designed to replace other cards within the public sector such as the free travel pass and the social services card of this Department and to make it easy for providers of public services to verify the identity of customers.

    Considerable progress has been made in the roll out of the PSC. Approximately 1.4 million cards, including some 420,000 Free Travel Variants, have now been produced.

    Face-to-face registration, which involves the capture of an individual's photograph and signature and the verification of identity data already held by the Department, is taking place countrywide in 94 offices of the Department. Selected low-risk customers, whose identity is regularly authenticated in a face-to-face process, have also been invited to avail of a 'postal' registration process. Registration is required for individual applicants for a Personal Public Service (PPS) Number and people applying for or in receipt of social protection payments or benefits.

    The PSC project is a key initiative in the Public Service Reform Plan, with the aim to expand its use to cover a greater range of public services, e.g., later this year, the National Driver Licence Service registration process is being extended to include registration for a PSC. This effort is being overseen by an interdepartmental steering committee.

    So yeah, this has been well flagged for many years. It has been highlighted in numerous Government / Civil Service publications.

    It's gas that some people are jumping at the opportunity to cricitise this just because they heard it in the news. Hundreds of thousands of people have been using these cards to access social welfare payments and other State services for quite some time now and we haven't heard many complaints.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    More on this from the Minister for Social Protection.
    Regina Doherty says public services card now mandatory for welfare


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,339 ✭✭✭✭LoLth


    why is this card the only form of ID accepted for booking a driving theory test

    http://www.theorytest.ie/driver-theory-test/public-services-card-psc-id-policy/

    and a passport (required to get the PSC) no longer valid?

    I do not understand why Dtt/RSA need to know a PPSN when a passport has been sufficient proof of identify for years. (its the lack of either/or that confuses me)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    This is the standard way it works all over Europe, if it works for 500m people I'm sure the Irish can manage it as well.

    I'm sure they can too. And I'm also sure that all these cards are enabled by legislation that has been passed by the national parliament in that country. The problem here is that there is no legislation backing the PSC. Go through all the acts and all the SI and there is zero mention of it.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    LoLth wrote: »
    why is this card the only form of ID accepted for booking a driving theory test

    http://www.theorytest.ie/driver-theory-test/public-services-card-psc-id-policy/

    and a passport (required to get the PSC) no longer valid?

    I do not understand why Dtt/RSA need to know a PPSN when a passport has been sufficient proof of identify for years. (its the lack of either/or that confuses me)

    The new system for validating ID used by the PSC and is sufficient for proving you are who you say you are. If you have proved who you are to the satisfaction of the PSC, then the rest of the Gov services accept that validation. [At least that is my understanding]. Validation and security is improving with every iteration - current passports are much more secure than they used to be.

    In the future, this is the way ID will be validated. Missing from the card before it can be an official ID is the person's address (Eircode) and the person's Nationality/Residency status. Perhaps these will be added in the future, however, I would have thought that the driver's licence would be a better basis for a national ID card as I think it has more robust security built in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,810 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I'm sure they can too. And I'm also sure that all these cards are enabled by legislation that has been passed by the national parliament in that country. The problem here is that there is no legislation backing the PSC. Go through all the acts and all the SI and there is zero mention of it.

    Another frequent lie told on social media, here is the legislation:


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/37/section/9/enacted/en/html


    (1) The Minister may issue a card (in this Act referred to as a ‘public services card’) to a person in such form as the Minister considers fit for the purposes of carrying out a transaction.

    (1A) Where a public services card is issued to a person the following information shall be inscribed on it:

    (a) the name of that person;

    (b) the personal public service number of that person;

    (c) a photograph of that person;

    (d) the signature of that person;

    (e) the issue number of the public services card;

    (f) the expiry date of the public services card;

    (g) such other information (if any) as may be prescribed by the Minister.

    (1B) A public services card shall in addition to the information referred to in subsection (1A) contain the following information which shall be in non-legible form and be capable of being recovered by electronic means:

    (a) the name of that person;

    (b) the personal public service number of that person;

    (c) the date of birth of that person;

    (d) the place of birth of that person;

    (e) the sex of that person;

    (f) the nationality of that person;

    (g) all former surnames (if any) of that person;

    (h) all former surnames (if any) of the mother of that person;

    (i) a photograph of that person;

    (j) the signature of that person;

    (k) the issue number of the public services card;

    (l) the expiry date of the public services card;

    (m) such other information (if any) as may be prescribed by the Minister.”.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Dark Rabbit


    I can see this issue growing legs now, the Irish Council of Civil Liberties has called for clarification. I think this card is such a great fraud prevention measure but can see this issue until the cards are no longer mandatory :s


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I can see this issue growing legs now, the Irish Council of Civil Liberties has called for clarification. I think this card is such a great fraud prevention measure but can see the tinfoil hat wearing gang pushing this issue until the cards are no longer mandatory :s

    - or they become fully mandatory - that is they become official ID cards.

    Alternatively, if Ryanair accept them for travel purpses, they will become very popular.


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