Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Options
13468924

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I can't remember the figures.

    As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

    Wasn't there a high millions figure released about the savings since they introduced anti fraud measures and PSC


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    blanch152 wrote: »
    An ID tax?

    Since when do you have to pay for one?

    My bad, there is no charge. Even more reason to be suspicious.

    What proof of identity do you need to produce to get one of these cards that you don't need to get a passport or driving licence?

    Why can I not use a pasport or licence to identify myself to the government that issued them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Turnipman


    RustyNut wrote: »

    Why can I not use a pasport or licence to identify myself to the government that issued them?

    Because they've changed the requirements. Simple really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,813 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Just to set the record straight. It was found that the majority of fraudulent social welfare claims were by Irish Nationals, including little old ladies in their 70's.
    Non nationals were in the minority.

    I was not referring to SW fraud, but insurance and bank accounts. I bolded these parts of the post I was replying to, to make that clear.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,868 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I didn't say anything about the reason given. People keep telling me that loads of people sign off when told to register for the card. I'm just asking how many people signed off? Why is that so hard to answer?


    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentapril2017/

    OK, there were 47,300 less people employed in April 2017 than April 2016. Can you tell me

    (a) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that ensured they got a job?

    (b) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that required an ID card to prevent fraud?

    (c) does it really matter which because the reduction in numbers is a great outcome and it probably a mixture of both?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I can't remember the figures.

    As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

    I'm just a bit amazed about how 'everyone' knows that there were loads of people who signed off welfare when they were invited to get the PSC card, but no-one can quote an actual number or source an official report. If no-one has an actual number, how can we have any idea what 'loads' mean? Does it mean 10, or 100 or 100,000?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,965 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Do you need the PSC to claim Single Farm Payment or farm related grants?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    blanch152 wrote: »
    http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentapril2017/

    OK, there were 47,300 less people employed in April 2017 than April 2016. Can you tell me

    (a) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that ensured they got a job?

    (b) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that required an ID card to prevent fraud?

    (c) does it really matter which because the reduction in numbers is a great outcome and it probably a mixture of both?
    I can't tell you anything about these numbers. They're not my numbers.

    But why can't the Dept tell us that how many people signed off welfare within (for example) 2 months of being called to get their card, compared to the number of people who signed off welfare WITHOUT being called to get their card - or some other comparable measure of the effectiveness of the card as a deterrent to fraud?

    How can anyone stand up and say it is deterring fraud unless you can quote some actual number to support this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    elperello wrote: »
    Do you need the PSC to claim Single Farm Payment or farm related grants?

    Looks like it is heading that way;
    http://egovstrategy.gov.ie/annex-b/
    Dept. Agriculture, Food and the Marine Agfood.ie Support for individual access to the Agfood.ie set of services via MyGovID Sep-18


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,813 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    RustyNut wrote: »
    My bad, there is no charge. Even more reason to be suspicious.

    :rolleyes:

    Some people will never be happy I suppose.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

    Now that is interesting. When I got mine, they took the photo from my passport. So the reverse of the current (or soon to be current) situation. My wife was waiting ages for hers even though everything should have been OK. They appeared to have some problem with her first name not matching her name of her birth cert - but it was not a problem when she got her passport.

    I think the PSC is going to be the 'prime' identity document for all government services into the future, and the security will continue to improve.

    The current card cannot be an ID card as it stands but will form the basis of one when one is introduced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Now that is interesting. When I got mine, they took the photo from my passport. .

    Person I know didn't bother going to picture appointment but received card with photo taken from Passport

    Found out afterwards they are supposed to ask your permission to do that


  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭yenom


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Person I know didn't bother going to picture appointment but received card with photo taken from Passport

    Found out afterwards they are supposed to ask your permission to do that

    They don't do that anymore. It was done a few years ago as a trial. They want everyone in now as the card has a facial recognition system. It's to stop people having two PPS numbers or two licences or two dole claims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007



    And now tell us why this could not possibly happen in an Ireland without it??? In case you missed it Irish health records have been found in a dump in the Philippines.

    This is not an argument for not doing it, only a warning that it needs to be done right.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    The current card cannot be an ID card as it stands but will form the basis of one when one is introduced.

    Once there passport checks entering the UK/NI, a demand for a credit card sized ID will grow.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Oh my god, I have to identify myself for receiving grants and services! What next? Pay for water?
    The biggest outrage in the history of mankind!
    :rolleyes:
    People seem to imagine this sort of Big Brother machinery behind the state, something from the X-Files. I blame TV, sugary foods and the tuba.
    But having to use an ESB bill as "proof" of address is perfectly alright. No worries, I can knock one up in 5 minutes on my laptop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

    I don't have a PSC card and I renewed my passport last week without one, so it isn't mandatory.

    They also asked me for my PPS number, so its probably the case that they want some piece of identifying information, but not necessarily the PSC card.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't remember the figures.

    As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

    There is some info here. Seems some refused to get a card and had their payments withheld. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/welfare-recipients-see-benefits-cut-off-in-row-over-mandatory-cards-457782.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There is some info here. Seems some refused to get a card and had their payments withheld. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/welfare-recipients-see-benefits-cut-off-in-row-over-mandatory-cards-457782.html

    Yeah, it looks like someone has done the impossible calculation and found that the 'large' savings are less than a million, for the 60 million project.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    This is not an argument for not doing it, only a warning that it needs to be done right.

    It's certainly an argument for, if it has to be done, that adequate specialist resources are allocated - no sign of that happening


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, it looks like someone has done the impossible calculation and found that the 'large' savings are less than a million, for the 60 million project.

    "The savings made from those not complying with the card requirements are referred to in a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General last autumn which notes that €2.502m in total savings were recorded, including €1.7m relating to suspected fraudulent claims."

    Long term it may weed out some more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Yeah, it looks like someone has done the impossible calculation and found that the 'large' savings are less than a million, for the 60 million project.
    article
    The savings made from those not complying with the card requirements are referred to in a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General last autumn which notes that €2.502m in total savings were recorded, including €1.7m relating to suspected fraudulent claims
    So €2.5M so far, but if that's an ongoing (and rising) saving of around €2.5M per year it won't be long paying for itself.

    Anyway, the inflated cost of introducing something new is irrelevant to the merits or otherwise of the thing itself. We had ridiculously inflated costs with eircode and with Irish Water and Nama; due to all the buddies consultancies and dodgy tenders involved. But that is not to say that these projects are a bad thing in themselves. Just there is a lot of corruption in the political system which is just waiting to cream off the taxpayers money on any given project, or steer it in the direction of their own private profit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Once there passport checks entering the UK/NI, a demand for a credit card sized ID will grow.

    It's already possible to purchase a credit card sized Irish passport!

    Here's a life-sized photo of one!

    NO%20FEE%20NEW%20PASSPO.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭Dublinstiofán


    If it stops people getting passports under false pretences and stops people giving fraudulent details when registering cars, then I'm all for it.
    Why we don't have a national ID like the rest of Europe (excluding UK) is beyond me.

    I accept that however if your going to do something, why not do it right?! And it's nothing to do with registering cars. It's to do with applying for a new category license.

    A) Why doesn't it say that a PCS is the only form of identification now accepted in the passport application forms at the moment in order to get a passport?

    B) Why should this woman be the guinea pig, she was Irish and as entitled to an Irish passport as you or I! She had also paid €100 for the express passport service by post and the passport office insisted that when she gets her public services card (or a letter proving she has applied for one and it has been approved) that she travel to Dublin to apply for an emergency passport and pay the €220 fee as she didn't provide the required documentation in the first application. The application that doesn't currently say you need a PSC card to apply for a passport, what a joke!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Person I know didn't bother going to picture appointment but received card with photo taken from Passport

    Found out afterwards they are supposed to ask your permission to do that

    They did ask and I agreed. Picture looks washed out.

    I think now that the PSC is now only given after a face to face interview and photo taken, it is intended to be a stronger ID than even a passport, but still not a national ID card (yet).


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    recedite wrote: »
    article So €2.5M so far, but if that's an ongoing (and rising) saving of around €2.5M per year it won't be long paying for itself.
    It would be 24 years paying for itself, to be precise - is this really a good investment?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It would be 24 years paying for itself, to be precise - is this really a good investment?

    Have you factored in future false claims? It'll be a deterrent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,965 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Have you factored in future false claims? It'll be a deterrent.

    I haven't factored in anything because they're not my figures - but you raise an interesting project governance question about the business case. Is there a business case for this project showing what are the projected costs and savings?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I haven't factored in anything because they're not my figures - but you raise an interesting project governance question about the business case. Is there a business case for this project showing what are the projected costs and savings?

    This is a government project to increase security as far as ID is concerned. As each change goes it notches up the level of security and so improves that security. It is not a once and for ever solution in itself but improves security wrt identity in a time of identity theft.

    Alternatively, consider the project that the RSA is waging wrt the driving test. First they introduced the theory test. Great, anyone looking for a DL had to pass a simple multiple choice questionnaire. Then the made the actual driving test a bit harder, and have been making it harder bit by bit. It does nothing for all those who currently hold a licence, but it is a start. There are even people currently still driving now that never sat a test, but eventually these will all be out of the system. Meanwhile, deaths on the road are much lower than 10 years ago - hugely so. Is it a worthwhile project? Yes of course - a death on the road is a major tragedy.

    You will see a reduction on ID related fraud against the Gov fall over the coming years - no question.

    By the way, those that never sat a test got one when there were no motorways, roundabouts or traffic lights in most of the country.


Advertisement