Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

NinetyTwoTeam

It was done by stealth definitely. When I got mine I was asked to take my glasses off which I questioned because I would wear my glasses regularly, including when picking up the dole. I was just told that they want the photo without glasses, no other explanation.

Now I know why: this is a biometric card. Wearing glasses confuses face recognition technology. They can recognise a face with glasses from a photo without glasses easily, but the presence of glasses on your file photo distorts the outline of your face and distances from your eyes to other parts of your face.

None of this was explained, that my photo was being taken to be analysed by facial recognition software, neither are you made aware what other data is kept or who has access to it.

jimmycrackcorm

SPDUB wrote:

So why is the Government only claiming 1.7m in fraud if large numbers are being caught .

There is no measurement for the prevention of fraud, only fit what is being caught.

marcus001 wrote:

People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.

What we can understand is people running away with their imagination without any actual evidence that it is a national id card.

marcus001 wrote:

As someone whose never claimed the dole I really don't see why I should have to get one of these pleb cards just so I can renew my driver's licence.

You don't need it to renew.

NinetyTwoTeam wrote:

Now I know why: this is a biometric card. Wearing glasses confuses face recognition technology. They can recognise a face with glasses from a photo without glasses easily, but the presence of glasses on your file photo distorts the outline of your face and distances from your eyes to other parts of your face.

Glasses don't confuse biometrics. Neither does a beard nor dying hair.

gordongekko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do we have appropriate IT security skills and expertise in the public sector to keep this data safe?

No I heard they just hired 2 lads off the street and are hoping they make a go of it.

murphaph

marcus001 wrote: »

If you think it's faux outrage you clearly don't understand the issue.

People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.

I genuinely don't understand the concern. I live in Germany where non-national EU citizens like me unfortunately do not get issued an ID card but rather a crappy A4 certificate of abode, which is only valid in conjunction with a passport or national ID card from the home country.

I don't carry my passport around. I have a driving licence and some other picture ID like my health insurance card. These should suffice if I'm ever required to identify myself to the police (hasn't happened in the decade I've been here yet).

On the other hand I see my missus (German) conveniently use her national ID card all the time. I have noticed no downsides for her compared to me. I am actually going to become a German citizen to get one for the convenience factor.

_Kaiser_

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

If you've nothing to hide then it's not a problem.
Motor tax and vehicle registration are also being looked at. Having worked in motor tax it's a good development.

dense wrote: »

What's wrong with the state being able to ID someone and their giving to it and taking from it?

There are far too many operating under the radar.

Again.. missing the point! This isn't about whether dole cheats should be caught (obviously they should) - it's about the Government introducing a national ID card by stealth by making it "essential" but not "mandatory" for access to things beyond Welfare.

It even comes with threats as the woman in the IT article found out... don't get one, we'll cut you off - but still say it's not a requirement

As I said before it's IW, PPS numbers and "we'll reduce your water pressure to a trickle" all over again.... and we know how well that turned out!

marcus001 wrote: »

If you think it's faux outrage you clearly don't understand the issue.

People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.

Exactly! It may suit some to focus on the fraud aspect (which no-one .. except those involved in it I imagine .. has any issue with addressing), but that's not the issue here.

It's FG once again trying to slide things through without mandate or full transparency.

_Kaiser_

gordongekko wrote: »

No I heard they just hired 2 lads off the street and are hoping they make a go of it.

Come off it... given the piss-poor state of the public/civil service in general and their IT systems (take AGS or the HSE as examples), I think concerns about how this data is being collected, stored, accessed and shared, and for what purposes are very real.

But sure, let's just focus on dole cheats instead :rolleyes:

Tabnabs

Hotblack Desiato wrote:

Those who really don't trust the government are of course free to not claim payments from the government.

Can we stop paying taxes in this new reality of yours? Thought not.

gordongekko

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Come off it... given the piss-poor state of the public/civil service in general and their IT systems (take AGS or the HSE as examples), I think concerns about how this data is being collected, stored, accessed and shared, and for what purposes are very real.

But sure, let's just focus on dole cheats instead :rolleyes:

Sure your information was stolen off this site at one stage. It doesnt stop people from using it.

Hotblack Desiato

Tabnabs wrote: »

Can we stop paying taxes in this new reality of yours? Thought not.

You don't need it to pay taxes.

Sierra Oscar

SPDUB wrote: »

So why is the Government only claiming 1.7m in fraud if large numbers are being caught .

This has been explained multiple of times in this thread already. The €1.7m figure comes from the number of people who have actually been caught in the act of defrauding the State.

It does not include people who have mysteriously decided to stop claiming social welfare benefits once they have been informed that they have to verify their identity and receive a Public Services Card.

In anycase, the purpose of this card is more so to help streamline access to State services in the digital age - it is linked to MyGovID.

People have been demanding that the State do a lot more to rollout digital services. To do so you need a robust verification process in place. This is part and parcel of that process. You can't have it both ways.

AndrewJRenko

gordongekko wrote: »

No I heard they just hired 2 lads off the street and are hoping they make a go of it.

The scary bit is that they haven't even got the two lads off the street. No extra resources or new posts have been assigned to this project.

I suppose these leading academics must be just scaremongering too
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/privacy-law-experts-write-to-minister-for-justice-over-public-services-cards-1.3199487?mode=amp

Squatter

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Come off it... given the piss-poor state of the public/civil service in general and their IT systems (take AGS or the HSE as examples), I think concerns about how this data is being collected, stored, accessed and shared, and for what purposes are very real.

But sure, let's just focus on dole cheats instead :rolleyes:

So what new, previously uncollected, personal data is going to be collected by the PSC?

AndrewJRenko

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It does not include people who have mysteriously decided to stop claiming social welfare benefits once they have been informed that they have to verify their identity and receive a Public Services Card.

Why not? That would be a fairly straightforward correlation to make.

flaneur

The issue I have with continental style ID cards isn't the cards or the concept of having an ability to prove ID easily. It's the idea that you must carry the ID at all times.

An ID card, without the compulsorily carry requirement, doesn't seem to me to be particularly problematic.

I'm actually more annoyed when some mobile phone company wants my utility bills, bank statements and driving licence to be processed in some outsourced call centre like environment.

I find the approach to ID in some continental countries, however, bordering on police state level stuff.

In Belgium for example you must have an ID card on you if you are over 15 years old and more than 200m from your home.

If you move to Belgium or move house within Belgium, you must register with the town hall and the local police are informed so they can check the you are living at that address and have your name correctly displayed on your doorbell!

Take a look at requirements : https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/belgium/our-services/new-to-belgium/

The Irish passport card was created largely to avoid the inconvenience of having to carry a highly loosable / prone to stealing, large and expensive to produce passport book in countries where compulsory national ID or passport is required.

If Ireland's just introducing an ID card to use to identify yourself when using public services, I can't really see the big deal.

If it were to introduce anything even remotely like the Belgian approach, I would be voting FG out of office.

Squatter

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why not? That would be a fairly straightforward correlation to make.

No it wouldn't. And even if the DSP was to produce such a statistic, you'd probably be among the first to disbelieve its veracity unless it suited your one-eyed, anti-PSC agenda.

AndrewJRenko

Squatter wrote: »

No it wouldn't.

Why not? You've outlined the basis for the calculation yourself.

elperello

Future use of PSC.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/PSCFUTURE.pdf

gordongekko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The scary bit is that they haven't even got the two lads off the street. No extra resources or new posts have been assigned to this project.

I suppose these leading academics must be just scaremongering too
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/privacy-law-experts-write-to-minister-for-justice-over-public-services-cards-1.3199487?mode=amp

Don't most people claim the civil service is bloated and over staffed. Maybe they had enough already

elperello

From -

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx


You must bring certain documents with you to your appointment to prove your identity and address. You should also bring your mobile phone, if you have one. Having your mobile phone with you when you are SAFE registered means that we can “pair” that mobile phone number with you. This makes it much easier for you to verify your MyGovID account which is required should you wish to access public services online in the future.

They want to "pair" you with your mobile number.

AndrewJRenko

flaneur wrote: »

If Ireland's just introducing an ID card to use to identify yourself when using public services, I can't really see the big deal.

If it were to introduce anything even remotely like the Belgian approach, I would be voting FG out of office.

The nub of the current issue is that there has been no public or Government debate on where to find the balance between those two options - no public consultation, no expert input at Oireachtas committees - just a quiet push in one direction.

flaneur

Well, you can always buy another SIM card if your That worried.

The main reason I would assume is some kind of use of mobiles as 2 factor authentication with the card much like what Gmail, banks, Facebook etc all do.

But I can see why people wouldn't necessarily want that level of connected ID.

AndrewJRenko

gordongekko wrote: »

Don't most people claim the civil service is bloated and over staffed. Maybe they had enough already

Yes, most people who know nothing about it do claim that, though the formal comparisons from OECD and others suggest otherwise.

TheChizler

Bringing the phone is also optional.

Hotblack Desiato

You have to verify your identity to the State in order to get a driving licence, passport or to claim welfare benefits. It makes no sense at all to have to go through three different processes to do these, rather than doing it once.

I'm just annoyed this wasn't done when biometric passports and driving licences were brought in. Better a bit late than never, however.

elperello

TheChizler wrote: »

Bringing the phone is also optional.

Yes they just say "you should bring it" so I suppose you can leave it in your pocket. But how many people are just handing over the phone without any idea of the implications?

flaneur

Biometric passports were effectively slammed through by the USA after 9/11.
The state would have had to have had a lot of infrastructure in place to rollout that as ID documents.

flaneur

elperello wrote: »

Yes they just say "you should bring it" so I suppose you can leave it in your pocket. But how many people are just handing over the phone without any idea of the implications?

Considering people accept insane permissions on Android apps without bathing an eyelid, I would doubt it.

SPDUB

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This has been explained multiple of times in this thread already. The €1.7m figure comes from the number of people who have actually been caught in the act of defrauding the State.

Read my post again I specifically was only taking about people caught in the act of fraud .

Tatranska said that was a large number of people according to a presentation he was at

I called that presentation flannel ( and I've been at presentations where there was flannel ) since if €1.7m is divided by "large numbers" say 1000 people then you are talking about €1,700 each over the last 5 years etc so about €300 a year or about €6 a week .

So that presentational is flannel since to get to "large figures" we have to count very small scale fraud and the C&AG office has found error rather that an intent to defraud an issue especially at that level .

Squatter

elperello wrote: »

From -

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx


You must bring certain documents with you to your appointment to prove your identity and address. You should also bring your mobile phone, if you have one. Having your mobile phone with you when you are SAFE registered means that we can “pair” that mobile phone number with you. This makes it much easier for you to verify your MyGovID account which is required should you wish to access public services online in the future.

They want to "pair" you with your mobile number.

It's an extra facility that they offer, works great too! Enables one to look at one's PRSI contributions online - very handy for checking eligibility for DSP schemes.

elperello

flaneur wrote: »

Considering people accept insane permissions on Android apps without bathing an eyelid, I would doubt it.

You could be right but I am increasingly becoming like the lad on the bus in that old ad, remember the one "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is.."

There are a lot of questions and not enough answers about this PSC business.
We need more details and a proper informed debate.

Squatter

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why not? You've outlined the basis for the calculation yourself.

They could produce raw data - but converting that into reliable information, rather than mere assumption, would be a massive challenge.

RustyNut

elperello wrote: »

We need more details and a proper informed debate.

This x 1000

taylor3

Just wondering about when re-newing my driving licence. My current driving license is due to expire at the end of October. I currently have a PSC cause I claim child benefit. My question is do I need to produce my PSC to 're-new' my licence or is it a requirement only for first time applications for driving license.
Cheers.

Jim2007

elperello wrote: »

From -

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx


You must bring certain documents with you to your appointment to prove your identity and address. You should also bring your mobile phone, if you have one. Having your mobile phone with you when you are SAFE registered means that we can “pair” that mobile phone number with you. This makes it much easier for you to verify your MyGovID account which is required should you wish to access public services online in the future.

They want to "pair" you with your mobile number.

The amusing part here is that without a national identity system people end up having to provide more personal data than is necessary in order to be identified, government systems need to store more personal data than is necessary in order to operate and government employees need access to more personal data in order to be able to confirm they are dealing with the correct person....

And of course it all ends up being more expensive than it need be.

AndrewJRenko

Squatter wrote: »

They could produce raw data - but converting that into reliable information, rather than mere assumption, would be a massive challenge.

So why bring it into the argument then?

RustyNut

taylor3 wrote: »

Just wondering about when re-newing my driving licence. My current driving license is due to expire at the end of October. I currently have a PSC cause I claim child benefit. My question is do I need to produce my PSC to 're-new' my licence or is it a requirement only for first time applications for driving license.
Cheers.

No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

Seems like its just an ID tax.

taylor3

RustyNut wrote: »

No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

Seems like its just an ID tax.

I use AIB and they always ask me for id, to which I hand over my driving license and they accept that (up to 4 weeks ago at least). I have a psc and I literally have never ever used it, it just sits in my purse doing nothing.

Sam Russell

RustyNut wrote: »

No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

Seems like its just an ID tax.

As time goes on, more security is added to the existing system. The old paper driving licences were an affront to security, only beating the cornflake box cut out because they were pink. The new CC one is much more secure.

To get the PSC you must present yourself and be photographed to get it, plus have added items to prove that you are who you say you are.

Currently, if I contact my bank they will ask me a few security questions. Usually they ask for my dob, my address, and occasionally my mobile phone number. All these bits of information are trivial to collect. If I had a government ID, then that would be all I need. Greater security, and perhaps less personal data floating about.

40 years ago, identity theft was something Frederick Forsyth wrote about in 'the day of the Jackal', and not an everyday unfortunate scam. Times have changed and governments have moved to tighten such matters, for example cross referencing death certs with birth certs so Mr Forsythes anti-hero would have been caught at the first attempt.

uck51js9zml2yt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Bring it on - it'll cut down on a great deal of fraud especially among non-nationals.



.

Just to set the record straight. It was found that the majority of fraudulent social welfare claims were by Irish Nationals, including little old ladies in their 70's.
Non nationals were in the minority.

uck51js9zml2yt

SPDUB wrote: »

Read my post again I specifically was only taking about people caught in the act of fraud .

Tatranska said that was a large number of people according to a presentation he was at

I called that presentation flannel ( and I've been at presentations where there was flannel ) since if €1.7m is divided by "large numbers" say 1000 people then you are talking about €1,700 each over the last 5 years etc so about €300 a year or about €6 a week .

So that presentational is flannel since to get to "large figures" we have to count very small scale fraud and the C&AG office has found error rather that an intent to defraud an issue especially at that level .

I said large numbers signed off without explanation when they were required to get a card.
Facial recognition was putting an end to Joe Murphy signing in at 2 different addresses, though they did have identical twins which caused problems when both got cards!

blanch152

RustyNut wrote: »

No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

Seems like its just an ID tax.

An ID tax?

Since when do you have to pay for one?

AndrewJRenko

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I said large numbers signed off without explanation when they were required to get a card.
Facial recognition was putting an end to Joe Murphy signing in at 2 different addresses, though they did have identical twins which caused problems when both got cards!

How large is the large number?

SPDUB

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I said large numbers signed off without explanation when they were required to get a card.
Facial recognition was putting an end to Joe Murphy signing in at 2 different addresses, though they did have identical twins which caused problems when both got cards!

This is what you said

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.
.

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why not? That would be a fairly straightforward correlation to make.

Do you really think that is the reason people would use?

Oh, I am signing off because

(a) my circumstances have changed, or

(b) I have been claiming fraudulently for years and the new card means I will get caught

Now which do you think is given as the reason to the social welfare officer?

AndrewJRenko

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you really think that is the reason people would use?

Oh, I am signing off because

(a) my circumstances have changed, or

(b) I have been claiming fraudulently for years and the new card means I will get caught

Now which do you think is given as the reason to the social welfare officer?

I didn't say anything about the reason given. People keep telling me that loads of people sign off when told to register for the card. I'm just asking how many people signed off? Why is that so hard to answer?

jimmycrackcorm

taylor3 wrote:

Just wondering about when re-newing my driving licence. My current driving license is due to expire at the end of October. I currently have a PSC cause I claim child benefit. My question is do I need to produce my PSC to 're-new' my licence or is it a requirement only for first time applications for driving license. Cheers.

Not at the moment but it will be arty shine point in the future.

taylor3 wrote:

I use AIB and they always ask me for id, to which I hand over my driving license and they accept that (up to 4 weeks ago at least). I have a psc and I literally have never ever used it, it just sits in my purse doing nothing.

Which is why there is an outcry about people imagining it is a national ID card. You only need it for pubic services.

SPDUB

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

.
Which is why there is an outcry about people imagining it is a national ID card. You only need it for pubic services.

The word not mentioned there is currently .

Because they are planning to get rid of the restriction in the Social Welfare Bill 2017 about offering to show it to an unspecified body (specified bodies are basically Govt Depts ) being an offence

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/900038915666710528

Currently banks such as the AIB are not allowed to accept it as proof of identify even if you voluntarily offer it .

Possibly people are worried it may become the only acceptable form of ID in future

Dublinstiofán

I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

It seems like another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing amongst government departments. It would seem that while this is not 'Mandatory' It will certainly be a requirement for basic services sooner or later. From June 16th this year, you cant book in for a drivers theory test for any new category of driving license if you don't have the code from the back of a public services card, and from the sounds of it you cant get a passport either unless you have one.

My advise would be to get one now to save yourself hassle down the line, apparently they last seven years. The office was packed with people trying to get them for one reason or another on Thursday.

uck51js9zml2yt

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How large is the large number?

I can't remember the figures.

As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

uck51js9zml2yt

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

It seems like another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing amongst government departments. It would seem that while this is not 'Mandatory' It will certainly be a requirement for basic services sooner or later. From June 16th this year, you cant book in for a drivers theory test for any new category of driving license if you don't have the code from the back of a public services card, and from the sounds of it you cant get a passport either unless you have one.

My advise would be to get one now to save yourself hassle down the line, apparently they last seven years. The office was packed with people trying to get them for one reason or another on Thursday.

If it stops people getting passports under false pretences and stops people giving fraudulent details when registering cars, then I'm all for it.
Why we don't have a national ID like the rest of Europe (excluding UK) is beyond me.