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Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

    If you've nothing to hide then it's not a problem.
    Motor tax and vehicle registration are also being looked at. Having worked in motor tax it's a good development.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    jonnycivic wrote: »
    I read a little about this yesterday, it seemed to imply that she had no other form of national ID (Drivers lisence/passport) and wanted her to get the card to use as the ID.

    I believe the pension is to do with her late husband??

    That's good, I first thought that it was the lady who was looking for a suitable "home" and a place in UCD.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    It's a mess because rather than come out and say "we're thinking of implementing a national ID card" and having a proper debate on the issue, they're sneaking it in by the back door by taking this card and expanding it way beyond its original scope instead.



    If you want a driver license renewal... you need it
    If you want a passport... you need it
    If you access any welfare services... you need it

    And it's been confirmed today that it's to be expanded further.

    You can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is this is another underhanded, solo run by an arrogant Government who thinks they can just push through whatever takes their fancy without mandate - in this case by dressing it up as combating welfare fraud (which no-one objects to) but yet muddying the debate so the focus isn't on the REAL issue - a mandatory national ID card with little to no detail on where that info will reside, who it'll be shared with, under what controls, and for what other purposes.

    Or do you really believe our present Government and civil service to be competent and professional enough to make such decisions about YOUR data themselves?

    What's wrong with the state being able to ID someone and their giving to it and taking from it?

    There are far too many operating under the radar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    It's a mess because rather than come out and say "we're thinking of implementing a national ID card" and having a proper debate on the issue, they're sneaking it in by the back door by taking this card and expanding it way beyond its original scope instead.



    If you want a driver license renewal... you need it
    If you want a passport... you need it
    If you access any welfare services... you need it

    And it's been confirmed today that it's to be expanded further.

    You can argue semantics if you wish, but the truth is this is another underhanded, solo run by an arrogant Government who thinks they can just push through whatever takes their fancy without mandate - in this case by dressing it up as combating welfare fraud (which no-one objects to) but yet muddying the debate so the focus isn't on the REAL issue - a mandatory national ID card with little to no detail on where that info will reside, who it'll be shared with, under what controls, and for what other purposes.

    Or do you really believe our present Government and civil service to be competent and professional enough to make such decisions about YOUR data themselves?

    They did have a debate about it back in 2010 when it was introduced by a FF/Green government!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    There was some ambivalence from state agencies initially concerning the cards but when they saw the results social welfare were having in dealing with fraud they began to see the benefits and signed up.
    The idea is to have a single online portal which people can access services through, all linked to your card. You will just need a single account


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,854 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    There are clear advantages to having such a card - just ask anyone living in a country that has them. The disadvantages seem to mostly boil down to "I don't trust the government".

    Those who really don't trust the government are of course free to not claim payments from the government.

    jem wrote: »
    It is a way of joining up all govt departments etc- advantages for the permanent govt yes. advantages for the citizens of ireland no.
    How long before banks require it to open accounts.
    How long before Insurance companies require it
    I can see a legal case been taken on this.

    Bring it on - it'll cut down on a great deal of fraud especially among non-nationals.

    jem wrote: »
    I would put money on this being a civil servant idea as opposed to an actual minister.

    You may be right - ministers have no balls in doing necessary things that a few people object to.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. ...........equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

    .

    So why is the Government only claiming 1.7m in fraud if large numbers are being caught .

    Sounds like usual presentation flannel more than real figures .


  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    blanch152 wrote: »
    For something that was introduced in legislation in 2010 under an FF/Green government and has been part of everyday life since 2012, there is an awful lot of faux outrage.

    While I have seen lots of that outrage online and in some media circles, which politicians are protesting this?

    If you think it's faux outrage you clearly don't understand the issue.

    People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    cbreeze wrote: »
    The PSC card is not an ID. The main reason is that your date of birth is not shown. That's what they told me in the Intreo office anyway.

    I agree with everyone having the PSC if it helps to reduce fraud - which we all pay for in the end.

    It's not an ID for the purposes of buying drink, but if it has your name and photo it's ID.

    What if the reduction in fraud is virtually nothing? What if the real fraud is that this definitely isn't about fraud?


  • Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

    If you've nothing to hide then it's not a problem.
    Motor tax and vehicle registration are also being looked at. Having worked in motor tax it's a good development.

    As someone whose never claimed the dole I really don't see why I should have to get one of these pleb cards just so I can renew my driver's licence.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭NinetyTwoTeam


    It was done by stealth definitely. When I got mine I was asked to take my glasses off which I questioned because I would wear my glasses regularly, including when picking up the dole. I was just told that they want the photo without glasses, no other explanation.

    Now I know why: this is a biometric card. Wearing glasses confuses face recognition technology. They can recognise a face with glasses from a photo without glasses easily, but the presence of glasses on your file photo distorts the outline of your face and distances from your eyes to other parts of your face.

    None of this was explained, that my photo was being taken to be analysed by facial recognition software, neither are you made aware what other data is kept or who has access to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    SPDUB wrote:
    So why is the Government only claiming 1.7m in fraud if large numbers are being caught .

    There is no measurement for the prevention of fraud, only fit what is being caught.
    marcus001 wrote:
    People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.

    What we can understand is people running away with their imagination without any actual evidence that it is a national id card.
    marcus001 wrote:
    As someone whose never claimed the dole I really don't see why I should have to get one of these pleb cards just so I can renew my driver's licence.

    You don't need it to renew.
    Now I know why: this is a biometric card. Wearing glasses confuses face recognition technology. They can recognise a face with glasses from a photo without glasses easily, but the presence of glasses on your file photo distorts the outline of your face and distances from your eyes to other parts of your face.

    Glasses don't confuse biometrics. Neither does a beard nor dying hair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Do we have appropriate IT security skills and expertise in the public sector to keep this data safe?

    No I heard they just hired 2 lads off the street and are hoping they make a go of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,020 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    marcus001 wrote: »
    If you think it's faux outrage you clearly don't understand the issue.

    People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.
    I genuinely don't understand the concern. I live in Germany where non-national EU citizens like me unfortunately do not get issued an ID card but rather a crappy A4 certificate of abode, which is only valid in conjunction with a passport or national ID card from the home country.

    I don't carry my passport around. I have a driving licence and some other picture ID like my health insurance card. These should suffice if I'm ever required to identify myself to the police (hasn't happened in the decade I've been here yet).

    On the other hand I see my missus (German) conveniently use her national ID card all the time. I have noticed no downsides for her compared to me. I am actually going to become a German citizen to get one for the convenience factor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,861 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.

    If you've nothing to hide then it's not a problem.
    Motor tax and vehicle registration are also being looked at. Having worked in motor tax it's a good development.
    dense wrote: »
    What's wrong with the state being able to ID someone and their giving to it and taking from it?

    There are far too many operating under the radar.


    Again.. missing the point! This isn't about whether dole cheats should be caught (obviously they should) - it's about the Government introducing a national ID card by stealth by making it "essential" but not "mandatory" for access to things beyond Welfare.

    It even comes with threats as the woman in the IT article found out... don't get one, we'll cut you off - but still say it's not a requirement

    As I said before it's IW, PPS numbers and "we'll reduce your water pressure to a trickle" all over again.... and we know how well that turned out!
    marcus001 wrote: »
    If you think it's faux outrage you clearly don't understand the issue.

    People are not outraged at the idea of a Public Services Card. they're outraged that the PSC is becoming a national ID card through the back door. Whatever your opinion on national ID cards, if you can't at least understand people's concern then the problem is on your end.

    Exactly! It may suit some to focus on the fraud aspect (which no-one .. except those involved in it I imagine .. has any issue with addressing), but that's not the issue here.

    It's FG once again trying to slide things through without mandate or full transparency.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,861 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    No I heard they just hired 2 lads off the street and are hoping they make a go of it.

    Come off it... given the piss-poor state of the public/civil service in general and their IT systems (take AGS or the HSE as examples), I think concerns about how this data is being collected, stored, accessed and shared, and for what purposes are very real.

    But sure, let's just focus on dole cheats instead :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Those who really don't trust the government are of course free to not claim payments from the government.

    Can we stop paying taxes in this new reality of yours? Thought not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Come off it... given the piss-poor state of the public/civil service in general and their IT systems (take AGS or the HSE as examples), I think concerns about how this data is being collected, stored, accessed and shared, and for what purposes are very real.

    But sure, let's just focus on dole cheats instead :rolleyes:

    Sure your information was stolen off this site at one stage. It doesnt stop people from using it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,854 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Can we stop paying taxes in this new reality of yours? Thought not.

    You don't need it to pay taxes.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    SPDUB wrote: »
    So why is the Government only claiming 1.7m in fraud if large numbers are being caught .

    This has been explained multiple of times in this thread already. The €1.7m figure comes from the number of people who have actually been caught in the act of defrauding the State.

    It does not include people who have mysteriously decided to stop claiming social welfare benefits once they have been informed that they have to verify their identity and receive a Public Services Card.

    In anycase, the purpose of this card is more so to help streamline access to State services in the digital age - it is linked to MyGovID.

    People have been demanding that the State do a lot more to rollout digital services. To do so you need a robust verification process in place. This is part and parcel of that process. You can't have it both ways.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    No I heard they just hired 2 lads off the street and are hoping they make a go of it.

    The scary bit is that they haven't even got the two lads off the street. No extra resources or new posts have been assigned to this project.

    I suppose these leading academics must be just scaremongering too
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/privacy-law-experts-write-to-minister-for-justice-over-public-services-cards-1.3199487?mode=amp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »

    Come off it... given the piss-poor state of the public/civil service in general and their IT systems (take AGS or the HSE as examples), I think concerns about how this data is being collected, stored, accessed and shared, and for what purposes are very real.

    But sure, let's just focus on dole cheats instead :rolleyes:


    So what new, previously uncollected, personal data is going to be collected by the PSC?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko



    It does not include people who have mysteriously decided to stop claiming social welfare benefits once they have been informed that they have to verify their identity and receive a Public Services Card.

    Why not? That would be a fairly straightforward correlation to make.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    The issue I have with continental style ID cards isn't the cards or the concept of having an ability to prove ID easily. It's the idea that you must carry the ID at all times.

    An ID card, without the compulsorily carry requirement, doesn't seem to me to be particularly problematic.

    I'm actually more annoyed when some mobile phone company wants my utility bills, bank statements and driving licence to be processed in some outsourced call centre like environment.

    I find the approach to ID in some continental countries, however, bordering on police state level stuff.

    In Belgium for example you must have an ID card on you if you are over 15 years old and more than 200m from your home.

    If you move to Belgium or move house within Belgium, you must register with the town hall and the local police are informed so they can check the you are living at that address and have your name correctly displayed on your doorbell!

    Take a look at requirements : https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/belgium/our-services/new-to-belgium/

    The Irish passport card was created largely to avoid the inconvenience of having to carry a highly loosable / prone to stealing, large and expensive to produce passport book in countries where compulsory national ID or passport is required.

    If Ireland's just introducing an ID card to use to identify yourself when using public services, I can't really see the big deal.

    If it were to introduce anything even remotely like the Belgian approach, I would be voting FG out of office.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Why not? That would be a fairly straightforward correlation to make.

    No it wouldn't. And even if the DSP was to produce such a statistic, you'd probably be among the first to disbelieve its veracity unless it suited your one-eyed, anti-PSC agenda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Squatter wrote: »
    No it wouldn't.

    Why not? You've outlined the basis for the calculation yourself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,973 ✭✭✭✭elperello




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    The scary bit is that they haven't even got the two lads off the street. No extra resources or new posts have been assigned to this project.

    I suppose these leading academics must be just scaremongering too
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/privacy-law-experts-write-to-minister-for-justice-over-public-services-cards-1.3199487?mode=amp

    Don't most people claim the civil service is bloated and over staffed. Maybe they had enough already


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,973 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    From -

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx


    You must bring certain documents with you to your appointment to prove your identity and address. You should also bring your mobile phone, if you have one. Having your mobile phone with you when you are SAFE registered means that we can “pair” that mobile phone number with you. This makes it much easier for you to verify your MyGovID account which is required should you wish to access public services online in the future.

    They want to "pair" you with your mobile number.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    flaneur wrote: »
    If Ireland's just introducing an ID card to use to identify yourself when using public services, I can't really see the big deal.

    If it were to introduce anything even remotely like the Belgian approach, I would be voting FG out of office.

    The nub of the current issue is that there has been no public or Government debate on where to find the balance between those two options - no public consultation, no expert input at Oireachtas committees - just a quiet push in one direction.


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