Man and woman shot dead, two others injured in Dublin gangland shooting

hatrickpatrick

NIMAN wrote: »

Scum will be scum.

Can't believe there are people using this as a chance to slag off the Government and Gardaí.

To be fair, it's the government which refuses to address endemic under-sentencing of violent scum in this country, so when something like this happens it's very legitimate to question the government's commitment to the safety of its citizens.

Nobody with multiple convictions for gangland crime should be free to walk the streets. Nobody. Whether this be policed by jail time, house arrest, GPS tracking or something else is up for debate, but there needs to be something.

We have a sex offenders registry because we recognise as a society that dangerous sexual offenders are highly likely to re-offend, and that even after serving their time, tabs must be kept on them for the good of the decent, law abiding public. Can somebody please explain why the actual f*ck we don't have anything similar for gang related activity and violence?

DEFTLEFTHAND

MysticMonk wrote: »

For those who howl out for the government to build "social housing"..take a good look at this incident.

I remember watching an RTE doc on the Limerick gangs.

When the sink estates were been planned in the late 60s early 70s some Detective asked the Council, what do you think will happen when we dump hundreds of destitute families with no jobs or prospects into the same era. He was told to fcuk off.

Prophetic, they created breeding grounds for crime and life long welfare dependency.

Truly tragic.

mikeybrennan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Where are people going with all this, 'we must be hard on drug users'! There's no evidence globally that shows hardening drug related sentences etc has any sort of positive reduction in supply and use.

It fills up jails with users as has happened in the US

I'm not aware of any positive consequences from persecuting users?

Wanderer78

mikeybrennan wrote:

It fills up jails with users as has happened in the US

Maybe we could/should privatise our jails as well, that would surely help the situation!

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Irish Times says that the two who died were "very closely associated with a criminal shot dead and whose body was dumped in a laneway in Dublin 3.5 years ago."

Great way to get you to take out a digital subscription so you can trawl their archives of "3.5 years ago" and find the name of somebody from Balbutcher Drive who was shot dead in January 2014 a week after being released from prison. A career criminal with 70 convictions at the time.

Course it could have been somebody else completely.........

......but it wasn't

irishproduce

myshirt wrote: »

Part of the problem is these kids are born into dysfunctional social and economic environments that 'the rest of us' ignore. It's not our problem, it's not on our doorstep. F#ck them. Scumbags.

However, that scumbag that you meet on the Red line was once a kid, and there are currently kids in Ireland still born into appalling circumstances that no kid should be born into. They are watching an old tape of Superman and believe that maybe some day maybe someone like Superman will come and rescue them. But Superman is not coming. This is Ireland.

Without any help, these kids develop impaired coping strategies for their life challenges and have really bad social, emotional, and financial resources to swim against the tide and meet the challenge of the world they were given.

Victimisation, poverty, no role models, low self esteem, piss poor parenting, abuse, drugs, traumatisation, social isolation, paranoid behaviour, violence, suicide, all shared experiences which can enhance a 'group identify' and create hostility, hopelessness, or outright disdain for civilised society. There are even epigenetic effects to socioeconomic disadvantage and a devastating impact on a person's development from the introduction of stressors into their lives from a young age.

Regardless of where you stand on social policy, the reality is you either spend the money at the start or you spend it at the end. You spend it on the kid needing help, or you spend it on the kid when you meet him as a 21 year old criminal, drug addict, welfare recipient, or whatever. Assuming he is not in the river, as suicides very high in socioeconomic disadvantage communities. Not only if you invest in tackling socioeconomic disadvantage issues can you get better outcomes, you also get more bang for your buck. It's way more expensive dealing with it when it is too late.

I am not excusing anyone's appalling crimes, but I am saying that we have to face up to a big problem we have, and that is short changing kids dealt a bad hand in life. It is disgusting what these scumbags are after doing in broad daylight and the environment young people have to live in. We permit socioeconomic issues to persist as long as it doesn't hit the leafy suburbs of South Dublin. It's just not good enough that thousands of kids are in hotels tonight. We can do better.

Where do you stand on the states role in who has children in the first place?
I totally understand your point, it is well made.
But all of your well made points are simply post event corrective efforts for a f*ck up that happened in the first place i.e. a drug addict or very mentally disturbed person having children or even just someone who clearly is unfit to have children by common standards (Think of neglect/ abuse etc).
I think it is laudable to and valiant to continually strive for social justice and better conditions for all but I think we also have to face up to the fact that we have many many people who simply should not have children.
I do not have a solution but based on your post, you are educated in this area and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your opinion.

Benteke

One way of sorting it out would be to stop treating them as gangland criminals and start treating and sentencing them as terrorists of the state, Life without parole

septictank

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Has probably signed his own death warrant whoever he is.

Think he's might have enough problems already.

Spider Web

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I'm not suggesting Ireland is such a country. What annoys me is people still make excuses and bring out that line "one of the safest countries in the world" everytime something like this happens.

These gangs are running amok in Dublin and there is a huge heroin crisis on the streets of the city that is not being addressed. Instead of settling for less we should be expecting more otherwise it will get worse. The guards know exactly who is involved. Not enough is being done imo from a force that jumps from crisis to crisis.

Lets not settle for less ffs as we tend to do.

Nobody is saying it should be settled for - it's truly abysmal, this latest attack with children present indicates people utterly devoid of humanity.

People just respond with the "Have perspective" reply when things get a bit hysterical - e.g. saying Ireland is lawless as if it's a narco ruled country in Latin America, or when people act as though it's just an Irish thing.

Nobody wants to settle for it and any suggestions on how to tackle it would be always most welcome.

scoey

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Where are people going with all this, 'we must be hard on drug users'! There's no evidence globally that shows hardening drug related sentences etc has any sort of positive reduction in supply and use. As other have said, just legalise everything already, as all we 're doing is wasting time, money and resources fighting it. It's a health issue not a legal one.

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

Wanderer78

scoey wrote: »

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

ive only ever been to singapore from your examples, certainly felt safe there, didnt see much drug use but i ll stick my neck out and say, it goes on but probably behind closed doors.

humans have consumed mind altering substances since we ve walked the planet, this will continue until our time ceases on this planet. incarceration of users WILL NOT end consumption, period!

this is a health issue, and to be more precise, a mental health issue! 'cracking down' on drug use will and is exacerbating the root causes of drug use and addiction. the most common root causes being complex mental health issues, complex behavioral problems and personality disorders, learning disabilities etc etc etc. some of the most common issues would be things such as bipolar disorder, borderline disorder, learning disabilities such as dyslexia, various forms of autism such as adhd, asperger's etc etc etc. you will also find these are some of the most common issues of many if not most 'criminals'!

some believe, by incarcerating those that struggle with these issues, is best for all, when in fact, most reoffend upon release. one possible explanation of this is, we havent truly addressed the root causes of why these people were incarcerated in the first place. but then again, if it aint broken, why fix it!:rolleyes:

blinding

Nothing will change unless the gangsters kill some Politicians , Bankers or another high profile journalist .

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

MysticMonk

blinding wrote:

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

MysticMonk

blinding wrote:

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

Ronaldinho

blinding wrote: »

Nothing will change unless the gangsters kill some Politicians , Bankers or another high profile journalist .

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

What changes need to be made by the politicians in your opinion?

It's obvious that the Gardai have problems from all the scandals that have emerged over the past couple of years, but I think people need to cut them some slack when it comes to their work on gangland crime. Do people expect the Guards to offer criminals a 24-7 protection service to cut down the risk of a successful hit? Personally I'd prefer the resources went towards getting convictions for the crimes of those (same) criminals.

lazybones32

MysticMonk wrote: »

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

But who is tasked with governing the Country? Who is tasked with guarding the peace? Responsibility doesn't fall on one 'category' only.

Dyr

MysticMonk wrote: »

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

The scumbags aren't in charge of law and order.... oddly enough.

Sofiztikated

scoey wrote: »

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

Doesn't Japan have a bit of a amphetamine problem, though?

https://www.thecabinchiangmai.com/statistics-of-japan-s-rising-drug-use/

The drugs are popular amongst truck drivers, gang members, partiers, housewives, salary men, people wanting to lose weight, and the rich of Japan

So, much the same as here, it's a variety of people getting wanked, even with the serious threat of "coming down hard!!!one!11!" on users.

ChikiChiki

Bambi wrote: »

The scumbags aren't in charge of law and order.... oddly enough.

A'int that the the truth. No point arguing. People are so thick and can't see the root cause of these issues its ridiculous.

Its up to the elected government to ensure the scumbags are properly policed ffs.

blinding

Ronaldinho wrote: »

What changes need to be made by the politicians in your opinion?

It's obvious that the Gardai have problems from all the scandals that have emerged over the past couple of years, but I think people need to cut them some slack when it comes to their work on gangland crime. Do people expect the Guards to offer criminals a 24-7 protection service to cut down the risk of a successful hit? Personally I'd prefer the resources went towards getting convictions for the crimes of those (same) criminals.

How did some of these areas end up the way they did .

Politicians on the take and feathering their own nests .

Our Gardai force particularly at leadership is rotten with cronyism and corruption . Not exactly a great example to the Gardai on the front line .

Sick politicians and sick leadership of the Gardai....Its hardly surprising we are where we are with gangsterism........

Ronaldinho

Bambi wrote: »

The scumbags aren't in charge of law and order.... oddly enough.

Law and Order starts with each and every one of us.

Then, it falls to the Government to take remedial action on legislation, policing etc. And then further, the Judiciary.

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

Dyr

Ronaldinho wrote: »

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

What people

Wanderer78

Ronaldinho wrote: »

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

what causes criminality and how do we prevent it?

Wheeliebin30

Right I see we've moved onto the Irish goverment should have the solution to solving crime which happens in every world in the country.

It was homelessness that they should have solved even though no country ever has, now it's crime.

God sake Leo you're not doing your job. We still have crime in Ireland.

Wheeliebin30

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what causes criminality and how do we prevent it?

I suppose you're gonna tell us it's the bankers and politicians and to go read some author of some book about the subject.

Meanwhile in the real world..

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I suppose you're gonna tell us it's the bankers and politicians and to go read some author of some book about the subject.

Meanwhile in the real world..

white collar criminality certain is a problem and a complex issue, all humans have the capabilities to engage in criminality. i certainly have had many opportunities in doing so, i even regularly break laws, and remain to have a clear conscience in doing so.

Spider Web

Why are people so obsessed with blaming people who are not directly responsible? (In other contexts too, not just this).

There is only one person who made the decision to become involved in violent crime, and one person who pulled the trigger.

Taking their responsibilities away from them and blaming the guards and politicians is one surefire way of giving them a laugh.

What do people think the guards should do?

MysticMonk

ChikiChiki wrote: »

A'int that the the truth. No point arguing. People are so thick and can't see the root cause of these issues its ridiculous.

Its up to the elected government to ensure the scumbags are properly policed ffs.

if I shoot a few people it's not my fault because of politicians?

Absolute horseshiite..the same remarks you see all over the echo.ie's fb page whenever scumbags behave like scumbags.

Ffs the government do more than enough for these people..time to cut them off altogether.

scoey

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Doesn't Japan have a bit of a amphetamine problem, though?

https://www.thecabinchiangmai.com/statistics-of-japan-s-rising-drug-use/



So, much the same as here, it's a variety of people getting wanked, even with the serious threat of "coming down hard!!!one!11!" on users.

The problems are on a completely different scale.

Nobody who has spent any amount of time in Japanese cities and Dublin could draw any sort of equivalance between the drug problems on the streets of the two places with a straight face.

Nobody said there are no drugs in Japan. It is impossible to wipe out criminality 100% in any country.
People feel the drug situation in Ireland/Dublin is out of hand.
There is a distinct lack of junkies roaming the streets of Tokyo and therefore an absense of the associated problems they bring so moving the goalposts to "ha, I found an article that says some people in Japan use drugs!" doesn't really say much.

Of course maybe Japanese cities are just the same as Dublin with drugs and the only solution is legalisation.
Feel free to believe whatever suits your pro drug ideology.

Uriel.

Spider Web wrote: »

Why are people so obsessed with blaming people who are not directly responsible? (In other contexts too, not just this).

There is only one person who made the decision to become involved in violent crime, and one person who pulled the trigger.

Taking their responsibilities away from them and blaming the guards and politicians is one surefire way of giving them a laugh.

What do people think the guards should do?

That's very simplistic. Why was the target targetted for example? I don't know, don't need to know and don't really care. But the person targetted was clearly involved in criminality and seems to have been for almost his entire life. His brother the same. They were a family that, at least on the surface, supported and condoned criminality. Did the two victims deserve to be shot and killed, no, of course not. But it far too simplistic to turn around and just say the gunman is the only decision maker in all this.
Sure he was the one to make the decisions to shoot etc. But the decisions and the life led by the target contribute to all of this as well