Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Inquitus

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

Magdalena Spoiled Rifleman

Magdalena Spoiled Rifleman wrote: »

This August event will go down as the first total solar eclipse whose path of totality stays completely in the United States since 1776, official beginning of its nationhood.

There was one in 1918?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/08/04/americas-previous-coast-to-coast-eclipse-almost-proved-einstein-right/#5a9b491537c3

ligerdub

Inquitus wrote:

I would disagree, Nazism and White Supremacism does not deserve a platform, and protesting to deny it one is both reasonable and to be expected in a decent society.

Neither Milo nor Ann Coulter are Nazi's or white supremacists. They might be to you, because you don't like them.....but it doesn't make it true.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Danzy

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

They appeal to the same mindset, authoritarian, cultish adherence to belief, a belief in violence as cleansing, obsession with uniforms and flags,both appeal to those that see themselves outside of the mainstream and rebelling against it, a desperate need to have an opposing side, both come from the extreme wings of political systems and represent the worst excesses and monstrosities of the last century, both have **** all relevance to the lives of most but believe they do as they live in an echo chamber of similar people.

This was largely a family dispute between 2 groups of assholes and lots of innocent people got hurt and worse.

end of the road

BabyCheeses wrote: »

It should be condemned, instead here we have people trying to excuse it and act like nazism is the ideology of peace. Nobody has defended attacking Trump supporters while we have people pretending that driving a car through a crowd s the same as throwing eggs at them.

All violence as bad but the right like to use the excuse that they treat women and gay people better than ISIS so it's fine, suddenly everyone is the same.

and then they (the far right that is) play the victim when they are called out on the fact that they still don't treat women and gay people as well as everyone else.

Samaris

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Glorious proving of his point. I agree entirely, but maybe if you replace all the words referring to Southerners to..oh, say, "Muslim", you might get what he was getting at...

Billy Mays

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

Agree with this

Personally speaking I don't have a problem with neo nazis and white supremacists getting a kicking.

It should be encouraged if anything

A Little Pony

Billy Mays wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

Agree with this

Personally speaking I don't have a problem with neo nazis and white supremacists getting a kicking.

It should be encouraged if anything

Why not discourage the violence in the first place? Why was police not dealing with it and separating them? How did they get so close to each other? You had two extreme sides in ANTIFA and Neo Nazis clashing what did people expect to happen?

hatrickpatrick

Anyone who reacts to somebody's exercising of their right to free speech with physical violence needs to be unequivocally condemned. The person who drove the car in yesterday's attack is a terrorist, no other way to put it, and should in my view be locked up indefinitely as a dangerous threat not only to peoples' lives but to democracy itself.

For some reason, while I'm sure everyone will agree with what I've written above, it's going to become controversial with my next sentence: People who riot, set fire to cars, pull fire alarms falsely and physically assault people in order to prevent right wing speakers from exercising their right to free speech belong in the same category, and should be condemned in the same terms (although obviously, murder goes above and beyond rioting so the specific attacker in yesterday's car attack deserve a special category of repulsion).

Anyone who advocates violently attacking left wing protesters is a despicable human being - and so, to, is anyone who advocates violently attacking right wing protesters. This shouldn't be a complicated concept to grasp. Words should never be met with physical violence, and anybody who responds to words with physical violence is a reprehensible and authoritarian individual.

The Legend Of Kira

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

( 1 ) Both the KKK & Antifa wear masks to conceal their identities .

( 2 ) Both are extremists obsessed with identity politics.
( 3 ) Both the KKK + Antifa have a history of violence & Intimidation.

Samaris

Yes, Kira, you know who else shares all those traits too? The Nazis that were out in force yesterday. The ones that everyone else is talking about bar a few people obsessed with whataboutery.

The Legend Of Kira

Billy Mays wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

Agree with this

Personally speaking I don't have a problem with neo nazis and white supremacists getting a kicking.

It should be encouraged if anything

In your own words please define what you think is a " neo nazi " as " neo nazi " + " fascist " are terms that get loosely thrown around these days , in your view should communists + islamic extremists also equally get a kicking ?

The Legend Of Kira

Samaris wrote: »

Yes, Kira, you know who else shares all those traits too? The Nazis that were out in force yesterday. The ones that everyone else is talking about bar a few people obsessed with whataboutery.

I know nazis have same traits .

mcmoustache

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

Think about it. This was a nazi rally. An actual nazi rally. And people are trying to shift blame elsewhere. There was a time when nazis were the bad guys. Same with the KKK. And here we are. 2017. And their supporters feel emboldened enough to expose their faces.

Interesting times.

BabyCheeses

( 1 ) Both allies and nazis had armies
( 2 ) Both allies and nazis bombed each other
( 3 ) Both allies and nazis had camps for prisoners.


Hence both sides in the war were the same. Sorry I dont have any pictures. I'm lazy.

mcmoustache

Samaris wrote: »

The ones that everyone else is talking about bar a few people obsessed with whataboutery.

They're whatabouting nazis and clansmen. That's where we are now.

BabyCheeses

mcmoustache wrote: »

They're whatabouting nazis and clansmen. That's where we are now.

Now? Go find the Breivik thread, or the mosque shooting, or the last time they used a car, or any of the other shooting threads. This isn't new, the same people have always been trying to blame everyone else when one of their own kills people.

mcmoustache

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Now? Go find the Breivik thread, or the mosque shooting, or the last time they used a car, or any of the other shooting threads. This isn't new, the same people have always been trying to blame everyone else when one of their own kills people.

That's true but there's a difference now. Prior to this, they could dress up their nazi ideology as some white disenfranchisement or as some concern about immigration. Now, with an actual nazi/klan rally, they're doing the same thing. That mask has slipped.

The Legend Of Kira

BabyCheeses wrote: »

( 1 ) Both allies and nazis had armies
( 2 ) Both allies and nazis bombed each other
( 3 ) Both allies and nazis had camps for prisoners.


Hence both sides in the war were the same. Sorry I dont have any pictures. I'm lazy.

So there is only extremists on the right, no extremists on the left whatsoever at all ? Gotcha .

tomwaterford

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

So there is only extremists on the right, no extremists on the left whatsoever at all ? Gotcha .

No ones said that


But to equate ramming a car into a peaceful protest with anything gone before and killing people and try justify it is wrong



But sure look,If it stops you from having to critise it....do what you have to do

Eric Cartman

Inquitus wrote: »

It amazes me how many /r/The_Donald types we have here on boards, who have crawled out from under a rock to try and defend the indefensible here, offering false equivalences, trying to tar White Supremacism and Anti-Fa with the same brush.

Antifa are funnily enough the largest organised fascist group in operation in the US at present, their entire function is using violence and criminal damage to shut down any opinion that goes against their left wing views.

The protest is against the continued destruction of white and conservative history in the US, it was organised and attended by a lot of the moderate right. Some white supremacists joined in because it aligns with their beliefs, the violent acts by them are to be condemned but the agression was instigated by Antifa against both the moderate peaceful protestors and the white supremacists who retaliated.

The white supremacists and antifa are similar in regard to hardline ideologies, however the difference is that the moderate right and white supremacists came to peacefully protest, violence was antifa's game before they even left their houses.

BabyCheeses

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

So there is only extremists on the right, no extremists on the left whatsoever at all ? Gotcha .

What? The allies were leftist extremists trying to silence the peaceful German Indentarians. It was only then that some extremist German Identarians fought back due to the threat. Both sides had bad eggs.

BabyCheeses

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Antifa are funnily enough the largest organised fascist group in operation in the US at present, their entire function is using violence and criminal damage to shut down any opinion that goes against their left wing views.

The protest is against the continued destruction of white and conservative history in the US, it was organised and attended by a lot of the moderate right. Some white supremacists joined in because it aligns with their beliefs, the violent acts by them are to be condemned but the agression was instigated by Antifa against both the moderate peaceful protestors and the white supremacists who retaliated.

The white supremacists and antifa are similar in regard to hardline ideologies, however the difference is that the moderate right and white supremacists came to peacefully protest, violence was antifa's game before they even left their houses.

Could you point out the violence aimed at the car? Was it when they threw their bodies at it?

The Legend Of Kira

mcmoustache wrote: »

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Now? Go find the Breivik thread, or the mosque shooting, or the last time they used a car, or any of the other shooting threads. This isn't new, the same people have always been trying to blame everyone else when one of their own kills people.

That's true but there's a difference now. Prior to this, they could dress up their nazi ideology as some white disenfranchisement or as some concern about immigration. Now, with an actual nazi/klan rally, they're doing the same thing. That mask has slipped.

Since the late 1990s with Immigration into Ireland, whatever ones view is on it- why to date has there being no rational public debate on type of Immigration policy ? none of the main parties ever really debated it, the only view expressed publicly is the open border view from far left type parties, in the past when new small parties tried to hold public meetings on Immigration the meetings were disrupted by left wing extremists + other meetings canceled due to threats of violence, Immigration + abortion are both touchy issues but at the moment there is only of those touchy issues being debate which is abortion, the other touchy issue Immigration isn,t publicly debated, why is that ? why should an issue be above & beyond public debate/public discussion ?

Billy Mays

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

In your own words please define what you think is a " neo nazi " as " neo nazi " + " fascist " are terms that get loosely thrown around these days , in your view should communists + islamic extremists also equally get a kicking ?

The scum at yesterday's rally wearing swastika armbands, waving swastika flags and wearing t-shirts with quotes from Hitler are what I'd define as neo nazis. I'd throw the ones wearing Klan robes and hoods in there aswell.

I make no apologies for saying people with these ideologies deserve a battering.

Do Islamic extremists like Chowdray and his ilk deserve the same treatment?

Absolutely.

Inquitus

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Since the late 1990s with Immigration into Ireland, whatever ones view is on it- why to date has there being no rational public debate on type of Immigration policy ? none of the main parties ever really debated it, the only view expressed publicly is the open border view from far left type parties, in the past when new small parties tried to hold public meetings on Immigration the meetings were disrupted by left wing extremists + other meetings canceled due to threats of violence, Immigration + abortion are both touchy issues but at the moment there is only of those touchy issues being debate which is abortion, the other touchy issue Immigration isn,t publicly debated, why is that ? why should an issue be above & beyond public debate/public discussion ?

So you are advocating that what we need, here in Ireland, is an anti-immigration right wing party? When I would say we are blessed that our political scene has no such thing, which says a lot for our country and its people!

The Legend Of Kira

BabyCheeses wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

So there is only extremists on the right, no extremists on the left whatsoever at all ? Gotcha .

What? The allies were leftist extremists trying to silence the peaceful German Indentarians. It was only then that some extremist German Identarians fought back due to the threat. Both sides had bad eggs.

You know full well Im not referring to events from the 1930s, but violent opposition to people on the right/Trump supporters in general in the present day you know as in the here and now not the past .

A Little Pony

Nazi symbol and the sickle banner in an American protest/fight. Outrageous.

hatrickpatrick

Billy Mays wrote: »

The scum at yesterday's rally wearing swastika armbands, waving swastika flags and wearing t-shirts with quotes from Hitler are what I'd define as neo nazis. I'd throw the ones wearing Klan robes and hoods in there aswell.

I make no apologies for saying people with these ideologies deserve a battering.

Do Islamic extremists like Chowdray and his ilk deserve the same treatment?

Absolutely.

The problem is, once you advocate violence as an acceptable response to speech you find objectionable, who gets to be the adjudicator of what counts as speech which carries an acceptable penalty of extra-judicial violence and what doesn't? Like, not too long ago there were people who felt that it was ok to beat up gay people in public, which as I'm sure you know culminated in a murder in Fairview Park. We live in a world today in which a permissive society is "in" but it's not long since girls were being locked up for being too sexually expressive. Right now, the majority may align with your beliefs on what counts as an acceptable ideology and what doesn't, but that can change in an instant - and if you've opened the door to normalising violence against people you disagree with, if those people become the majority next week you won't have any sort of moral ground to stand on when you complain that they are using violence against you for opposing them.

The only solution which works is to protect all speech and regard violence as an unequivocally unacceptable form of opposition to speech - regardless of what that speech involves or who the violence is coming from.

Moral absolutes are necessary in this situation because anything you normalise can subsequently be used against you. If we tolerate Nazis being beaten up by non-Nazis today because non-Nazis are currently the majority, we are implicitly by extension saying that if Nazis become the majority tomorrow, it will be acceptable for them to beat up people like us because they regard our views as evil. The only way out of this is to adopt a uniform approach across the board - violence is never an acceptable response to words. Ever.