Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Samaris

Nody wrote: »

You are aware that white supremacists perform over twice the number of terrorist attacks in USA compared to Islamic attacks, right? Or that the white supremacists attacks are twice as likely to have a deadly outcome? And that they are less than 50% as likely to be stopped by the police before they happen?



But hey; why let facts stop your delusions about who performs terrorist attacks in the USA.

Uh huh. It's totes the left stirring up all the violence and the poor innocent KKK are just trying to have a little march, maybe some tea and buns and they just keep getting attacked for no reason.

People could be forgiven for thinking you (Kira, possibly red ears) are "okay" with the side you support committing violence, given how when it does, you are salivating to blame the other side and refusing, ducking and diving to avoid talking about that there is a woman dead and nineteen people injured because a white supremacist drove a car into them deliberately. Your points regarding the scary leftists stoking violence to the point where people just -had- to come around to the idea of white supremacism and subjugating the other races (logic!) just doesn't measure up that well going by the data. You're right that violence breeds violence -but it's the violent thugs -you- defend and deflect from that are doing the majority of it.

As for the guy trying to justify it by "he was scared by the scary parade"...I have no words except to wonder what planet he's on and what he was reading.

martingriff

red ears wrote: »

People warned back when many were celebrating Richard Spencer getting punched that violence can go both ways. Sadly that is what transpired. We had reckless Hollywood celebs bellowing out at award ceremonies that punching a 'Nazi' was only the beginning. Let these people talk, argue against them, make better points. Antifa violence was always going to result in right wing violence. That shouldn't surprise anyone.

Debate and talk, silencing people or attacking them for their views will never work.

Ya the poor guy who ran down all those people. He should not be vilified. He should be taken to a resort and comforted. I mean he had no FREE WILL they must have had a gun to his head

Danzy

martingriff wrote: »

Ya the poor guy who ran down all those people. He should not be vilified. He should be taken to a resort and comforted. I mean he had no FREE WILL they must have had a gun to his head

The point that there were nothing but assholes on each side, who have the same mentality to each other, even though opposing each other is a valid one.

Samaris

Danzy wrote: »

The point that there were nothing but assholes on each side, who have the same mentality to each other, even though opposing each other is a valid one.

Okay, let us break that down. Why was the 32 year old woman that was run down by a car that was deliberately driven into her an asshole? Specific examples, please. What did she do to you?


Your argument appears to end up at the brick wall of "she was protesting white supremacy, therefore she's an asshole", but feel free to give me a list of what she did to you that is so bad that she is the same as the guy that murdered her in a terrorist attack?

red ears

martingriff wrote: »

Ya the poor guy who ran down all those people. He should not be vilified. He should be taken to a resort and comforted. I mean he had no FREE WILL they must have had a gun to his head

Why would you even post that if you have read this thread fully? Seriously?

If I was your English teacher you'd be getting an F for comprehension. Nowhere have I implied that about him.

martingriff

red ears wrote: »

martingriff wrote: »

Ya the poor guy who ran down all those people. He should not be vilified. He should be taken to a resort and comforted. I mean he had no FREE WILL they must have had a gun to his head

Why would you even post that if you have read this thread fully? Seriously?

If I was your English teacher you'd be getting an F for comprehension. Nowhere have I implied that about him.

You are blaming everyone else for what happened. The only people to blame for the yesterday was those people

Danzy

Samaris wrote: »

Okay, let us break that down. Why was the 32 year old woman that was run down by a car that was deliberately driven into her an asshole? Specific examples, please. What did she do to you?


Your argument appears to end up at the brick wall of "she was protesting white supremacy, therefore she's an asshole", but feel free to give me a list of what she did to you that is so bad that she is the same as the guy that murdered her in a terrorist attack?

I don't know that person, it is very sad that she died, if he did it deliberately, and I presume he did, then he deserves the death penalty.

Both the Klan and Antifa types are largely the same type of individual, who just have ended up acting out on different sides.

There will be plenty of harmless people going along who will often end up getting hurt, if they had sense they would corral Antifa and the Klan into one street and beat the **** out of both of them.

Both sides represent the worst and most murderous tendencies of the political divide of the last century.

no.8

martingriff wrote:

Ya the poor guy who ran down all those people. He should not be vilified. He should be taken to a resort and comforted. I mean he had no FREE WILL they must have had a gun to his head

Ugh...yawwwwn. Get off your childish high-horse please, for the sake of a credible debate. It irks, it really does. How can so many have such strong opposing agenda's and hypocritical ones at that. Classic case being europes crisis.
There were elements of filth on both sides yesterday, please acknowledge that at least! Tragic death of that young lady but I'm almost certain you wouldnt care if the shoe was on the other foot.

The Legend Of Kira

Samaris wrote: »

Nody wrote: »

You are aware that white supremacists perform over twice the number of terrorist attacks in USA compared to Islamic attacks, right? Or that the white supremacists attacks are twice as likely to have a deadly outcome? And that they are less than 50% as likely to be stopped by the police before they happen?



But hey; why let facts stop your delusions about who performs terrorist attacks in the USA.

Uh huh. It's totes the left stirring up all the violence and the poor innocent KKK are just trying to have a little march, maybe some tea and buns and they just keep getting attacked for no reason.

People could be forgiven for thinking you (Kira, possibly red ears) are "okay" with the side you support committing violence, given how when it does, you are salivating to blame the other side and refusing, ducking and diving to avoid talking about that there is a woman dead and nineteen people injured because a white supremacist drove a car into them deliberately. Your points regarding the scary leftists stoking violence to the point where people just -had- to come around to the idea of white supremacism and subjugating the other races (logic!) just doesn't measure up that well going by the data. You're right that violence breeds violence -but it's the violent thugs -you- defend and deflect from that are doing the majority of it.

As for the guy trying to justify it by "he was scared by the scary parade"...I have no words except to wonder what planet he's on and what he was reading.

Read over my posts Im not just referring to one specific incident nor am I just referring to yesterday, Trump has many supporters they aren,t all KKK types, many Trump supporters have being violently targeted for the thoughtcrime of wearing a Trump t shirt or the the thoughtcrime of wanting to see & hear a pro Trump speaker .


If people want to peacefully counter protest a pro Trump rally Im ok with it, example last month there was a Rally for life in Dublin that was met a by pro repeal the 8th counter protest , while there might of been abuse & words exchanged etc it didn,t boil over into political violence .

Samaris

Danzy wrote: »

I don't know that person, it is very sad that she died, if he did it deliberately, and I presume he did, then he deserves the death penalty.

Both the Klan and Antifa types are largely the same type of individual, who just have ended up acting out on different sides.

There will be plenty of harmless people going along who will often end up getting hurt, if they had sense they would corral Antifa and the Klan into one street and beat the **** out of both of them.

Both sides represent the worst and most murderous tendencies of the political divide of the last century.

That much I can agree with you with, Danzy. What I cannot agree with is that anyone who protests white supremacy - seriously, think about that concept for a few minutes. There is nothing good or cohesive or not divisive about a concept that is literally about subjugating other races and those that disagree with them. That is what white supremacy is. That is what Islamic supremacy is. That is what black supremacy is.


But it was the white supremacists marching yesterday and the people that man injured and the woman that he killed were not black supremacists, they were protesting white supremacy. I cannot agree that anyone who protests white supremacy (or any other form of deeply authoritarian dangerous ideology) is evil just because they are protesting. There is a very dangerous push in this thread and elsewhere to equate them exactly, so they cancel each other. So if a woman protesting peacefully, as all the videos indicate that march was, is murdered in the street, it can be argued that sure, they're all as bad as each other. That is what is happening. Look back at the last few pages. Look at the deflection, the whataboutery, the attempts to dodge any condemnation of a terrorist attack.

This is not reasonable debate. That is a goddam agenda, and a nasty one too.

I do agree with you that Antifa and the KKK are both dangerous sets of thugs and need to be dealt with. But I do not and will not agree that anyone protesting either is automatically the opposite extreme.

no.8 wrote: »

Ugh...yawwwwn. Get off your childish high-horse please, for the sake of a credible debate. It irks, it really does. How can so many have such strong opposing agenda's and hypocritical ones at that. Classic case being europes crisis.
There were elements of filth on both sides yesterday, please acknowledge that at least! Tragic death of that young lady but I'm almost certain you wouldnt care if the shoe was on the other foot.

There were. But there is no evidence that she was one of them. There is no evidence that the nineteen injured were violent. There is no evidence that the parade that was mowed through was violent. There is no evidence that Fields had any reason to feel threatened enough to attempt slaughter. All the evidence points the other direction. And people are angry that liars came out to blacken her and others. Reason was tried, it didn't work. It rarely does against intentional lies.

And I for one would care if the shoe was on the other foot, if someone peacefully protesting a black supremacist march was murdered in the street by a coward with a car and no sense of proportion, reason nor empathy.

BabyCheeses

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Read over my posts Im not just referring to one specific incident nor am I just referring to yesterday, Trump has many supporters they aren,t all KKK types, many Trump supporters have being violently targeted for the thoughtcrime of wearing a Trump t shirt or the the thoughtcrime of wanting to see & hear a pro Trump speaker .


If people want to peacefully counter protest a pro Trump rally Im ok with it, example last month there was a Rally for life in Dublin that was met a by pro repeal the 8th counter protest , while there might of been abuse & words exchanged etc it didn,t boil over into political violence .

How many Trump supporters have been killed?

Danzy

Samaris wrote: »

That much I can agree with you with, Danzy. What I cannot agree with is that anyone who protests white supremacy - seriously, think about that concept for a few minutes. There is nothing good or cohesive or not divisive about a concept that is literally about subjugating other races and those that disagree with them. That is what white supremacy is. That is what Islamic supremacy is. That is what black supremacy is.


But it was the white supremacists marching yesterday and the people that man injured and the woman that he killed were not black supremacists, they were protesting white supremacy. I cannot agree that anyone who protests white supremacy (or any other form of deeply authoritarian dangerous ideology) is evil just because they are protesting. There is a very dangerous push in this thread and elsewhere to equate them exactly, so they cancel each other. So if a woman protesting peacefully, as all the videos indicate that march was, is murdered in the street, it can be argued that sure, they're all as bad as each other. That is what is happening. Look back at the last few pages. Look at the deflection, the whataboutery, the attempts to dodge any condemnation of a terrorist attack.

This is not reasonable debate. That is a goddam agenda, and a nasty one too.

I do agree with you that Antifa and the KKK are both dangerous sets of thugs and need to be dealt with. But I do not and will not agree that anyone protesting either is automatically the opposite extreme.




There were. But there is no evidence that she was one of them. There is no evidence that the nineteen injured were violent. There is no evidence that the parade that was mowed through was violent. There is no evidence that Fields had any reason to feel threatened enough to attempt slaughter. All the evidence points the other direction. And people are angry that liars came out to blacken her and others. Reason was tried, it didn't work. It rarely does against intentional lies.

And I for one would care if the shoe was on the other foot, if someone peacefully protesting a black supremacist march was murdered in the street by a coward with a car and no sense of proportion, reason nor empathy.

A fair point which I'll take on board.*

*Is that allowed to be written on a forum?

The absolutism of both sides makes things like this inevitable, the inability, the firm belief that dialogue must not be entertained, the logic of no platforming, that this or that side is all bad or all good has taken root in America in a very toxic way.

This isn't just about this incident but American politics in general.

I think that those protesting have done more to bring this exceptionally micro niche group of people to a world wide platform. Would anyone outside of Richard Spencer's family know who he is without the promotional work that his opponents have put in for him.

It is as much about themselves as opposing him because he is an asshat.

BillyBobBS

BabyCheeses wrote: »

How many Trump supporters have been killed?

None. What do you think about the attacks on Trump supporters by violent leftist extremists?

The Legend Of Kira

BabyCheeses wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Read over my posts Im not just referring to one specific incident nor am I just referring to yesterday, Trump has many supporters they aren,t all KKK types, many Trump supporters have being violently targeted for the thoughtcrime of wearing a Trump t shirt or the the thoughtcrime of wanting to see & hear a pro Trump speaker .


If people want to peacefully counter protest a pro Trump rally Im ok with it, example last month there was a Rally for life in Dublin that was met a by pro repeal the 8th counter protest , while there might of been abuse & words exchanged etc it didn,t boil over into political violence .

How many Trump supporters have been killed?

For your info only two months ago there was an attempted murder of a Trump supporter who was stabbed 9 times .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6XclpdT-K8

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/what-critical-condition-means_us_5942d483e4b0f15cd5b9eabe

BabyCheeses

BillyBobBS wrote: »

None. What do you think about the attacks on Trump supporters by violent leftist extremists?

huh, both sides must not be the same then.

Anyone causing harm to another should be charged with whatever relevant laws. I'm not going to make excuses for some people unlike other terrorist sympathizers.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For your info only two months ago there was an attempted murder of a Trump supporter who was stabbed 9 times .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6XclpdT-K8

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/what-critical-condition-means_us_5942d483e4b0f15cd5b9eabe

How many Trump supporters have been killed? Someone else says none, is that true?

I should add that I can read, I don't need memes and polluting my youtube recommendations.

4068ac1elhodqr

For anyone interested in 'numerical astrological symbolic coincidences'
can they guess when the last solar eclipse with totalatity that covered the US coast to coast was?

nb. This was also during a period of clashing of ideologies.
nb. Aug 21st 2017 is the big upcoming one.

Danzy

Magdalena Spoiled Rifleman wrote: »

For anyone interested in 'numerical astrological symbolic coincidences'
can they guess when the last solar eclipse with totalatity that covered the US coast to coast was?

nb. This was also during a period of clashing of ideologies.
nb. Aug 21st 2017 is the big upcoming one.

April 8th, 2045?

red ears

Klansmen and Nazi supporters are vermin as are antifa.

Peaceful protesters on one side and peaceful white identitarians are fine imo. I have no problem with white people advocating for their race in a world where race seems to matter more and more. When people stop berating white people for their so called privelege and the sins of their forefathers and when people stop blaming white people for their own shortcomings then maybe we won't need advocates. It's open season on white people these days in universities and the media and this is not going unnoticed by young white men in particular. The growth of the alt right is not happening for no reason.

Sonics2k

red ears wrote: »

Klansmen and Nazi supporters are vermin as are antifa.

Peaceful protesters on one side and peaceful white identitarians are fine imo. I have no problem with white people advocating for their race in a world where race seems to matter more and more. When people stop berating white people for their so called privelege and the sins of their forefathers and when people stop blaming white people for their own shortcomings then maybe we won't need advocates. It's open season on white people these days in universities and the media and this is not going unnoticed by young white men in particular. The growth of the alt right is not happening for no reason.

Heh, it's funny because people have been saying this since the late 60's.

martingriff

no.8 wrote: »

martingriff wrote:

Ya the poor guy who ran down all those people. He should not be vilified. He should be taken to a resort and comforted. I mean he had no FREE WILL they must have had a gun to his head

Ugh...yawwwwn. Get off your childish high-horse please, for the sake of a credible debate. It irks, it really does. How can so many have such strong opposing agenda's and hypocritical ones at that. Classic case being europes crisis.
There were elements of filth on both sides yesterday, please acknowledge that at least! Tragic death of that young lady but I'm almost certain you wouldnt care if the shoe was on the other foot.

I am equally appalled by both filth I have never said otherwise please show where I have. What I am appalled by also are others trying to say this violence yesterday is the fault of others like they started it.

As for the horrible assertion that I would not be equally upset if an innocent supporter of Trump supporters I would be as violence is not the answer

martingriff

BabyCheeses wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Read over my posts Im not just referring to one specific incident nor am I just referring to yesterday, Trump has many supporters they aren,t all KKK types, many Trump supporters have being violently targeted for the thoughtcrime of wearing a Trump t shirt or the the thoughtcrime of wanting to see & hear a pro Trump speaker .


If people want to peacefully counter protest a pro Trump rally Im ok with it, example last month there was a Rally for life in Dublin that was met a by pro repeal the 8th counter protest , while there might of been abuse & words exchanged etc it didn,t boil over into political violence .

How many Trump supporters have been killed?

What is this none were killed does that make them superior or something. All violence from either side should be condemned

4068ac1elhodqr

Danzy wrote: »

April 8th, 2045?

This August event will go down as the first total solar eclipse whose path of totality stays completely in the United States since 1776, official beginning of its nationhood.

testaccount123

One thing I think we can all agree on is that if it ever came to a decision on letting millions of white religious republicans from the southern US into Europe we should certainly oppose it. I mean they dont all drive vehicles into crowds or anything but their culture is fundamentally at odds with European liberal values.

Danzy

I don't feel comfortable, in any degree with this White Identity stuff but it was inevitable from the very first moment, the left ditched class politics and became obsessed with Identity that it would grow as a niche movement.

It was only ever going to be a short time to some people in White Working Class areas going me too and there was always a small cohort waiting for that.

As it stands it is incredibly small in America, probably the weakest it has ever been but it is played up more than it ever has been, which helps it but gives a focus and a purpose for others as well.

There are a lot of blue collar workers who know that the self described progressives do not care for them, do not like them, have no respect for them. It is made so ****ing clear again and again.

Is it any wonder that a small bunch of them will gravitate to a dark place. They aren't made do that, they do that themselves but the Left has to get over its aversion to the old working class and the non-metro class. They seem to protest against neoliberalism in theory but love much of it in practice.

I have always voted Left, I always probably will but you can't blame working class people across the West from increasingly giving 2 fingers to it as a movement.

When you refuse to step up to the plate you make room for others like this micro group to do so.

The class divide between both sides at this protest is often one of the big things that stand out but then the Left across the West has become a largely Middle-Class and up movement, and its politics reflect that.

The left as a wide representative movement, as we knew it in the last century in many countries, is in reality dead, as a working class movement, laughable to even suggest so. The gap between it and its old base is now greater than that between the establishment right and its old base, which is some ****up to have made happen.

Thankfully only a very small no. of people have migrated in to this dark place, 1000 at a " major demo" out of a country of 300 million +.

Danzy

Magdalena Spoiled Rifleman wrote: »

This August event will go down as the first total solar eclipse whose path of totality stays completely in the United States since 1776, official beginning of its nationhood.

That is interesting enough.

Danzy

testaccount123 wrote: »

One thing I think we can all agree on is that if it ever came to a decision on letting millions of white religious republicans from the southern US into Europe we should certainly oppose it. I mean they dont all drive vehicles into crowds or anything but their culture is fundamentally at odds with European liberal values.

Agreed.

4068ac1elhodqr

Danzy wrote: »

That is interesting enough.

Indeed, the one previous to that was around the 1200's, so they're not too common in this scenario.

I highly suspect NK will offer a gift of some sort as he symbolically did on the 4th July on this eclipse.

This along with the current clashes/tensions will either strengthen or weaken the union on this new moon date.
The civil clashes may well escalate up to this date. New moons are always symbolic of 'new beginnings'.

'33' days after eclipse is the 23rd Sept, and astrologically is a very rare event also, some folks think it signifies the start of Rev'12.

A Little Pony

Danzy wrote: »

I don't feel comfortable, in any degree with this White Identity stuff but it was inevitable from the very first moment, the left ditched class politics and became obsessed with Identity that it would grow as a niche movement.

It was only ever going to be a short time to some people in White Working Class areas going me too and there was always a small cohort waiting for that.

As it stands it is incredibly small in America, probably the weakest it has ever been but it is played up more than it ever has been, which helps it but gives a focus and a purpose for others as well.

There are a lot of blue collar workers who know that the self described progressives do not care for them, do not like them, have no respect for them. It is made so ****ing clear again and again.

Is it any wonder that a small bunch of them will gravitate to a dark place. They aren't made do that, they do that themselves but the Left has to get over its aversion to the old working class and the non-metro class. They seem to protest against neoliberalism in theory but love much of it in practice.

I have always voted Left, I always probably will but you can't blame working class people across the West from increasingly giving 2 fingers to it as a movement.

When you refuse to step up to the plate you make room for others like this micro group to do so.

The class divide between both sides at this protest is often one of the big things that stand out but then the Left across the West has become a largely Middle-Class and up movement, and its politics reflect that.

The left as a wide representative movement, as we knew it in the last century in many countries, is in reality dead, as a working class movement, laughable to even suggest so. The gap between it and its old base is now greater than that between the establishment right and its old base, which is some ****up to have made happen.

Thankfully only a very small no. of people have migrated in to this dark place, 1000 at a " major demo" out of a country of 300 million +.

The yankees hate the South and hate the way it votes, hate everything about it pretty much and yet won't let them leave.

BabyCheeses

martingriff wrote: »

What is this none were killed does that make them superior or something. All violence from either side should be condemned

It should be condemned, instead here we have people trying to excuse it and act like nazism is the ideology of peace. Nobody has defended attacking Trump supporters while we have people pretending that driving a car through a crowd s the same as throwing eggs at them.

All violence as bad but the right like to use the excuse that they treat women and gay people better than ISIS so it's fine, suddenly everyone is the same.

Danzy

A Little Pony wrote: »

The yankees hate the South and hate the way it votes, hate everything about it pretty much and yet won't let them leave.

It is more than the Yankee and the South, they have as much contempt for the Local Union 404 Steel worker in Penn. as they do the bible thumper in Alabama.

It is reflected in much of the West today.