Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

The Legend Of Kira

Inquitus wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Since the late 1990s with Immigration into Ireland, whatever ones view is on it- why to date has there being no rational public debate on type of Immigration policy ? none of the main parties ever really debated it, the only view expressed publicly is the open border view from far left type parties, in the past when new small parties tried to hold public meetings on Immigration the meetings were disrupted by left wing extremists + other meetings canceled due to threats of violence, Immigration + abortion are both touchy issues but at the moment there is only of those touchy issues being debate which is abortion, the other touchy issue Immigration isn,t publicly debated, why is that ? why should an issue be above & beyond public debate/public discussion ?

So you are advocating that what we need, here in Ireland, is an anti-immigration right wing party? When I would say we are blessed that our political scene has no such thing, which says a lot for our country and its people!

Im advocating that people have a right to publicly discuss & debate political issues regardless of whether the issue is a touchy subject or not, do you agree or disagree ?

Inquitus

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im advocating that people have a right to publicly discuss & debate political issues regardless of whether the issue is a touchy subject or not, do you agree or disagree ?

I disagree, I do not think Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy deserve a platform.

kerry cow

The Legend Of Kira wrote:

Im advocating that people have a right to publicly discuss & debate political issues regardless of whether the issue is a touchy subject or not, do you agree or disagree ?

Agree . I dislike all gays but have to put up with them .I don't support violence but am Christian and think the world has lost it way .
I use not always think about the rights and wrongs on the path of life but like I said we have no morals anymore .anything goes .
My stomach turns to think who our lead is .
That's my opinion

Eric Cartman

Inquitus wrote: »

I disagree, I do not think Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy deserve a platform.

No-platforming anything is at best censorship, at worst fascism, neither of which have a place in our modern world.

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

There was one in 1918?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/08/04/americas-previous-coast-to-coast-eclipse-almost-proved-einstein-right/#5a9b491537c3

Technically correct, but the thing with 1776, was the last time a total solar eclipse occurred 'only over the United States, no other country', just as it will do in 8 days. 1918 went through mehico.

In that respect it would be an 'celestial anniversary' event of the birth of the nation, just as fresh political and ideological division awakens again.

The eclipse will start in Lincoln Beach, Oregon - the 33rd state - and end on the 33rd degree of Charleston, South Carolina. A solar eclipse has not occurred since 1918, which is 99 years - or 33 times three. 33 days later the 23 Sept is an interesting date also.

A Little Pony

Inquitus wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im advocating that people have a right to publicly discuss & debate political issues regardless of whether the issue is a touchy subject or not, do you agree or disagree ?

I disagree, I do not think Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy deserve a platform.

But communists are allowed a platform. You see them all the time in these videos waving that f*cking sickle banner which was flown under a regime which murdered MILLIONS of people, locked up over 14 million people in horrific gulags, tortured people, shot them and threw them in a ditch, starved millions of Ukrainian peasants by taking land and food resources off them and moving them.

And some people don't bat an eyelid if they see it. Thanks to the US constitution people have a right in law to protest and peaceful assembly. The issue is violent douchebags be it Neo Nazis or communists like ANTIFA turning up just so they can have a fight and beat the sh*t out of each other. 
Truth is both sides if they could would shut down any dissenting opinion which they don't agree with, particularly ANTIFA who do it all the time all over the place. Claim to be so tolerant but are one of the most intolerant groups to other view points you will ever come across.

The Legend Of Kira

Inquitus wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im advocating that people have a right to publicly discuss & debate political issues regardless of whether the issue is a touchy subject or not, do you agree or disagree ?

I disagree, I do not think Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy deserve a platform.

What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ?

tomwaterford

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ?

Lad this happened over a statue....nothing to do with immigration

Inquitus

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ?

Your entire debate in this thread is around normalising White Supremacist, Nazi, Racist, protestors in Charlottesville, you cannot pick and choose how you define that given what you have said in this thread, clearly you think White Supremacy, Nazism and Racism are deserving of a platform and I disagree with you.

hatrickpatrick

Inquitus wrote: »

I disagree, I do not think Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy deserve a platform.

See my post above. Who gets to be the adjudicator of what deserves a platform and what doesn't? A simple majority? Because again, there was a time when that would have meant the banning of gay pride marches and the silencing of black people with political ideas... Once you open this door, you have no way to ensure that it only remains open for those you personally would like it to be open for. If it's open, it's open.

The Legend Of Kira

tomwaterford wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

So there is only extremists on the right, no extremists on the left whatsoever at all ? Gotcha .

No ones said that


But to equate ramming a car into a peaceful protest with anything gone before and killing people and try justify it is wrong



But sure look,If it stops you from having to critise it....do what you have to do

I have critised it + condemned it here & elsewhere, do you condemn the normalisation of political violence towards Trump supporters in general + attempted murder of a Trump supporter two months ago ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6XclpdT-K8

The Legend Of Kira

Inquitus wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ?

Your entire debate in this thread is around normalising White Supremacist, Nazi, Racist, protestors in Charlottesville, you cannot pick and choose how you define that given what you have said in this thread, clearly you think White Supremacy, Nazism and Racism are deserving or a platform and I disagree with you.

You ducked & dodged what I asked you " What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ? " .

hatrickpatrick

I think there's one non-partisan observation we can all agree upon here: The trend towards violent opposition to speakers and protests in the US and elsewhere is extremely worrying. The fact that people would be murdered, cars would be set on fire, etc in response to somebody merely speaking - and in the United States of all places, which has led the way in terms of free speech protections for the rest of the world to follow - is absolutely bizarre. Five years ago this would have been unthinkable. Both AntiFa and the alt-right are symptoms of an extremely worrying trend which sees the basic, fundamental freedoms formerly regarded as essential for a functioning democratic society as being somehow expendable or outdated... God knows where this is going to end, but it's a can of worms which should never, ever have been opened.

wonderfullife

The rise in racist, white supremacist, far right-wing crap on this website is equally sad to see.

I've been reading Boards more or less since day 1 since Tom and the boys set it up and can honestly say the hate-filled ideology and defence of racists and nazi's is unprecedented and sickening. This place was never like it is today.

The Legend of Kira, Richard Hillman, Eric Cartman, I could name 2x dozen off the top of my head who rush to every Islamic terror thread to spread their xenophobic hatred and equally rush to every right-wing terrorist thread to engage in some "whataboutism".

If you want my own opinion, violence very rarely solves very much but I'd much prefer to pre-emptively punch James Alex Fields unconscious than let him stroll around spewing hate and murdering people with his car because he has a pathetic life living in his mom's basement and can never get a girl.

Same logic applies to the Islamist dummies who are impotent, directionless, socially awkward and want to lash out and hurt others.

LostinKildare

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I have critised it + condemned it here & elsewhere, do you condemn the normalisation of political violence towards Trump supporters in general + attempted murder of a Trump supporter two months ago ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6XclpdT-K8

Kira, the police have said that this guy was not attacked for political reasons. He got in an argument with two guys over parking, and they stabbed him. He had earlier been at a Trump event, but he had just come from a bar. Basically a road rage incident.

Gionet, who said Foreman sometimes works for him as a bodyguard, told his more than 175,000 Twitter followers that the assault was politically or racially motivated. Foreman is an ardent supporter of President Trump, and had been leaving an event in support of the president when he was attacked, Gionet said.

Law enforcement officials flatly dismissed the claim.

Prosecutors did not file a hate crime enhancement with the charges, Ardalani said. Lt. Saul Rodriguez, a Santa Monica Police Department spokesman, said the attack was spurred by an argument.

“There’s nothing here that would lead us to believe it was targeted or a hate crime or anything like that,” Rodriguez said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/06/21/alt-right-decries-attack-on-bodyguard-as-a-hate-crime-police-say-it-wasnt/?utm_term=.007a64684133
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-baked-alaska-stabbing-20170620-story.html

The Legend Of Kira

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

I disagree, I do not think Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy deserve a platform.

See my post above. Who gets to be the adjudicator of what deserves a platform and what doesn't? A simple majority? Because again, there was a time when that would have meant the banning of gay pride marches and the silencing of black people with political ideas... Once you open this door, you have no way to ensure that it only remains open for those you personally would like it to be open for. If it's open, it's open.

Bingo nail on the head, someone gets it, once debate on one issue can be silenced under the guise of no platform, it can spread take for example the banning of a pro life group from a Scottish uni under " no platform" .
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/739970/abortion-pro-life-students-Scottish-University-clinic-health

hatrickpatrick

wonderfullife wrote: »

The rise in racist, white supremacist, far right-wing crap on this website is equally sad to see.

I've been reading Boards more or less since day 1 since Tom and the boys set it up and can honestly say the hate-filled ideology and defence of racists and nazi's is sickening.

The Legend of Kira, Richard Hillman, Eric Cartman, I could name 2x dozen off the top of my head who rush to every Islamic terror thread to spread their xenophobic hatred and equally rush to every right-wing terrorist thread to engage in some "whataboutism".

If you want my own opinion, violence very rarely solves very much but I'd much prefer to pre-emptively punch James Alex Fields unconscious than let him stroll around spewing hate and murdering people with his car because he has a pathetic life living in his mom's basement and can never get a girl.

Same logic applies to the Islamist dummies who are impotent, directionless, socially awkward and want to lash out and hurt others.

I agree with the first part of your post, but on violence vs speech, if you read my three previous posts here do you agree with even some of what I've said, about how there are some paradigms and precedents which can be so easily turned around and wielded against those who today wield them, that they are simply too dangerous to contemplate at all? In my view, violence as a response to speech is one of those paradigms. Once we accept it as a precedent, there is absolutely no way to prevent it becoming normalised right across the board, not just in opposition to the people we don't like.

hatrickpatrick

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Bingo nail on the head, someone gets it, once debate on one issue can be silenced under the guise of no platform, it can spread take for example the banning of a pro life group from a Scottish uni under " no platform" .
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/739970/abortion-pro-life-students-Scottish-University-clinic-health

Exactly, and the problem is that this can just as easily be used against the left if the right becomes the majority over the short term - which given recent events doesn't seem to be nearly as "out there" a suggestion as it might have seemed two or three years ago.

Do people not remember a time when The Life of Brian was formally censored in Ireland because it offended the religious right? Does anybody remember the case I have mentioned here previously, of people engaging in random violent attacks against openly gay people which eventually culminated in a now-infamous Fairview Park murder? The Magdalene Laundries, which didn't just imprison single mothers but sometimes merely women who were seen as too forward, too free spirited, too sexual for "their own good"?

Free expression is fundamental. Compromise it for the sake of silencing those you don't like, and you are inevitably also compromising it for yourself, should you ever find yourself in the position of expressing an unpopular opinion.

A Little Pony

Inquitus wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ?

Your entire debate in this thread is around normalising White Supremacist, Nazi, Racist, protestors in Charlottesville, you cannot pick and choose how you define that given what you have said in this thread, clearly you think White Supremacy, Nazism and Racism are deserving or a platform and I disagree with you.

 The 1st Amendment was created by the founders for a reason, it is designed to allow people freedom of speech and expression, no matter how much you hate what they say or stand for, they are entitled to express such views. For me it's one of the great things about America, the freedom of speech laws and freedom of protest laws.

Samaris

LostinKildare wrote: »

Kira, the police have said that this guy was not attacked for political reasons. He got in an argument with two guys over parking, and they stabbed him. He had earlier been at a Trump event, but he had just come from a bar. Basically a road rage incident.

Seriously? Sheesh. As if the whataboutery wasn't dishonest enough without blatantly lying whataboutery.


hatrickpatrick - I agree with you on principle. But it is sickening to have smug, vicious, lying supremacists with a boost of confidence injected into them free to spew an ideology that in its very name indicates that it is about the subjugation of fellow citizens. That is what is so damned hard to swallow, that these miserable thugs with a fecking self-importance complex get to speak when what they speak is no less than the removal from others of the rights afforded to them.

That hate speech is equated with free speech.
That their advocating of murder, slavery, subjugation and cruelty has to be allowed, despite the pain and fear it causes in innocent people because of the fear that their sickening ideology will enforce further removals of rights under the same excuse should they gain power. Make no mistake - what they chant under the name of "free speech" is nothing less than threats. And apparently we have to just allow it because the poor craturs deserve to be heard too.

wonderfullife

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree with the first part of your post, but on violence vs speech, if you read my three previous posts here do you agree with even some of what I've said, about how there are some paradigms and precedents which can be so easily turned around and wielded against those who today wield them, that they are simply too dangerous to contemplate at all? In my view, violence as a response to speech is one of those paradigms. Once we accept it as a precedent, there is absolutely no way to prevent it becoming normalised right across the board, not just in opposition to the people we don't like.

It's just a catch-22 situation.

If you just *ignore* the assembly of white nationalists, racists etc it empowers and emboldens them to grow their base. It's just like any cult, the more you let them talk without pushback, the more followers they will attract.

On the other hand, counter-protesting always seems to end up in arrests and violence and that holds true across the world, even in Ireland. Obviously plenty of examples up north of counter-protests to Orange marches etc, it never seems to end well.

So I don't know really what the answer is.

Put it this way - if you had a suspicion that James Alex Fields was going to get in his car any moment and murder people, you'd punch him in the nose, beat the crap out of him and wait for the police right? You wouldn't just let him go kill people.

The sad reality of Donald Trump is most of his base are racists. Most of them are longing for an idealized version of America that is never coming back. An America where men are men, women are women, whites are in charge, coal-mining and manual labour jobs are plentiful...

Instead the future is technology, education, diversity, progress.

To my mind there's an inevitability that there's going to be huge violence in the next decade in America because there's simply too many people rejecting an inevitable path towards change.

Danzy

It is also the best PR that people like Milo Yiannopolous and Richard Spencer can get, without the reaction to them would anyone ever have heard of them?

Ultimately the problem with No Platforming is that it does not expose toxic ideologies but allows them to fester and gives them a counter culture aura.

Prominent fascists like David Irving and Nick Griffin all thrived on it and their reach fell apart within a very short time of them being debated or challenged.

I know that ye think the working class is so thick that they will fall for any sort of horse**** that they hear.

It is as much about the person doing it as the person being no platformed, it is on the street activism, a rush, does it matter that it is counter-productive, not at all, it is all about the thrill of it, the sense of comradery, the revolutionary vibe. I get it.

Most of all I feel that what makes people uneasy with no platforming and the people who do it is the worry that anyone of us could be next. Personally, I could care less if they took all the KKK men out of Charleston and hung them, don't care but there is nothing I have seen in the last 10 years that would convince me that it would stop there. It is an increasingly abused power and the definition of who is tainted by wrong thinking seems to grow every day.

The same tendency that had many a Red Army revolutionaries from the very start end up being shot in a Camp as a "capitalist roadster" is still there, more than when the tankies were prominent on the left.


I don't trust either of these authoritarian, control freak camps.

Christ on a stick but many segments of the left hate each other more than they hate the ****ers above, it is only a matter of time before they are trying to close each other down.

You honestly think a day will not come when they turn on each other for "wrong thinking"? The list seems inexhaustible and it seems to include a lot of people.

martingriff

BabyCheeses wrote: »

What? The allies were leftist extremists trying to silence the peaceful German Indentarians. It was only then that some extremist German Identarians fought back due to the threat. Both sides had bad eggs.

Going to bite here as you and I know the poster was talking about the groups of today and not the party of 1930,40 (WW2) But there were indeed extremists in the armies who fought against the Germans and Italy who thought they were better than those (general population) and were involved with looting massacres and rapes.

Danzy

A Little Pony wrote: »

 The 1st Amendment was created by the founders for a reason, it is designed to allow people freedom of speech and expression, no matter how much you hate what they say or stand for, they are entitled to express such views. For me it's one of the great things about America, the freedom of speech laws and freedom of protest laws.

Without freedom of Speech and freedom of assembly, you are well on the way to a tyranny.

There will always be righteous pricks who feel that they decide who can and cannot talk, what is to be discussed or not discussed and they are always certain that they are on the right side.

Whether they be 1950 Bishops, antifa, the Klan, the NKVD, it doesn't matter, when that type come to control the debate and then society then we are all screwed.

BillyBobBS

wonderfullife wrote: »

The rise in racist, white supremacist, far right-wing crap on this website is equally sad to see.

I've been reading Boards more or less since day 1 since Tom and the boys set it up and can honestly say the hate-filled ideology and defence of racists and nazi's is unprecedented and sickening. This place was never like it is today.

The Legend of Kira, Richard Hillman, Eric Cartman, I could name 2x dozen off the top of my head who rush to every Islamic terror thread to spread their xenophobic hatred and equally rush to every right-wing terrorist thread to engage in some "whataboutism".

If you want my own opinion, violence very rarely solves very much but I'd much prefer to pre-emptively punch James Alex Fields unconscious than let him stroll around spewing hate and murdering people with his car because he has a pathetic life living in his mom's basement and can never get a girl.

Same logic applies to the Islamist dummies who are impotent, directionless, socially awkward and want to lash out and hurt others.

Haven't read any hatred spread by any of the posters you named tbh. What I am reading is some posters advocating violence against others with an opposing view which is pretty disgusting.

Tony EH

martingriff wrote: »

Going to bite here as you and I know the poster was talking about the groups of today and not the party of 1930,40 (WW2) But there were indeed extremists in the armies who fought against the Germans and Italy who thought they were better than those (general population) and were involved with looting massacres and rapes.

I think it would be wise overall to leave talk of history out of this discussion altogether. It's clear that beyond a few basic words and phrases, either side knows little to nothing of the periods under question.

Another thing is, all this kicked of over the removal of a statue?

That's lamentable on numerous levels.

martingriff

Tony EH wrote: »

I think it would be wise overall to leave talk of history out of this discussion altogether. It's clear that beyond a few basic words and phrases, either side knows little to nothing of the periods under question.

Another thing is, all this kicked of over the removal of a statue?

That's lamentable on numerous levels.

I agree 100% should have kept my mouth shut but it is a hobby of mine (history & WW2)

The Legend Of Kira

wonderfullife wrote: »

The rise in racist, white supremacist, far right-wing crap on this website is equally sad to see.

I've been reading Boards more or less since day 1 since Tom and the boys set it up and can honestly say the hate-filled ideology and defence of racists and nazi's is unprecedented and sickening. This place was never like it is today.

The Legend of Kira, Richard Hillman, Eric Cartman, I could name 2x dozen off the top of my head who rush to every Islamic terror thread to spread their xenophobic hatred and equally rush to every right-wing terrorist thread to engage in some "whataboutism".

If you want my own opinion, violence very rarely solves very much but I'd much prefer to pre-emptively punch James Alex Fields unconscious than let him stroll around spewing hate and murdering people with his car because he has a pathetic life living in his mom's basement and can never get a girl.

Same logic applies to the Islamist dummies who are impotent, directionless, socially awkward and want to lash out and hurt others.

Who on here has advocated white supremacy ? I already stated regarding Antifa + the KKK " I equally detest both " .

Danzy

wonderfullife wrote: »

It's just a catch-22 situation.

If you just *ignore* the assembly of white nationalists, racists etc it empowers and emboldens them to grow their base. It's just like any cult, the more you let them talk without pushback, the more followers they will attract.

On the other hand, counter-protesting always seems to end up in arrests and violence and that holds true across the world, even in Ireland. Obviously plenty of examples up north of counter-protests to Orange marches etc, it never seems to end well.

So I don't know really what the answer is.

Put it this way - if you had a suspicion that James Alex Fields was going to get in his car any moment and murder people, you'd punch him in the nose, beat the crap out of him and wait for the police right? You wouldn't just let him go kill people.

The sad reality of Donald Trump is most of his base are racists. Most of them are longing for an idealized version of America that is never coming back. An America where men are men, women are women, whites are in charge, coal-mining and manual labour jobs are plentiful...

Instead the future is technology, education, diversity, progress.

To my mind there's an inevitability that there's going to be huge violence in the next decade in America because there's simply too many people rejecting an inevitable path towards change.

How does bringing a tiny group who marched in a city that most of us couldn't find on a map to a global audience count as a push back?

If they Klan and the Alt Righer were paying Antifa types for publicity they would not have been as successful.

Protest, organize, educate against your opponents, don't act as the most successful PR firm that unlimited money could buy them.

The Legend Of Kira

tomwaterford wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

What exactly do " Nazism, Racism or White Supremacy " have to do with a rational public debate on Immigration policy ? what,s the relevance ? other countries publicly debate Immigration like Australia + the Uk , are such public debates " nazi " or " racist " in your view ?

Lad this happened over a statue....nothing to do with immigration

I was replying to another poster .