Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

BillyBobBS

The worst of American society on view the other day. Both extreme hate groups. Sickening tbh...

dr.fuzzenstein

(Old fart voice) I blame the internet!
But seriously, as we've seen on boards in miniature, a global unlimited platform for dialogue between all of humanity has (to my mind) led to a hardening, entrenchment and polarisation of views that has never existed in the entire history of the human race.
What we're seeing is Generation Snowflake having a global sh*t-fit. It's no longer about dialogue, it's about "Ha! YOU are WRONG! In your face!". You have to win and the other guy has to lose. In other words, humans are assholes and we just cannot coexist in such large numbers.
Maybe it's an automatic response to overpopulation. We are the most vicious, violent and unpleasant species on this planet after all.

The Legend Of Kira

InTheTrees wrote: »

red ears wrote: »

People threatening violence against a free speech rally. Simply because they decide to label them as they see fit and then violently attack them.

I dont understand why you have a problem with people expressing their opposition to nazi hate speech.

If a group wants to goosestep through your town carrying nazi flags and idolising hitler then why shouldn't people come out against such stuff? I dont believe "antifa" is organising any of their own marches, they only appear when the nazi's come out with their flags and hate speech.

If the group were planning to bring " nazi flags " etc you would have a valid point, I haven,t see any evidence that they plan or intend to bring such stuff, that,s the problem someone cries " nazi " other people straight away assume the accused must be one & it must be true without doing any research into the accused to see what he/she are about before believing stuff based on rumours .

rossie1977

Being a Jew and being a fascist are not mutually exclusive. The ruling Likud party in Israel have numerous fascist traits.

Dyr

testaccount123 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. Should they be allowed fly Nazi flags too? Has red and white on it sure.

I remember being at a cork/limerick match back in the eighties and seeing a cork lad dressed in a white butchers overcoat with a red swastika on it among other red symbols. :eek:

They used to wave the older version of the hi no maru as well.

Far be it from me to defend Cork GAA but the confederate flag is not really a big deal over here.

The Legend Of Kira

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

Political flags/political banners at sporting events in general I disagree with, when going to a game or sporting event you re not there to see banners making political statements etc, some people don,t know when to leave their political beliefs/opinions at the door .

red ears

InTheTrees wrote: »

Then they should leave their nazi regalia at home then.

They certainly should.

super_furry

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Political flags/political banners at sporting events in general I disagree with, when going to a game or sporting event you re not there to see banners making political statements etc, some people don,t know when to leave their political beliefs/opinions at the door .

To be honest I can understand the Cork Confederate flag in the 80s and 90s because there was a bit of ignorance surrounding it. People over here at least didn't realise that it so wrapped up in the history of slavery and oppression and saw it as a 'Rebel' flag - something that fit well in Cork considering the colours.

Don't think there's much excuse these days though.

beans

Violence is never a valid response to ideas, even really bad ideas.

Take the notion of a whites-only ethno-state. Is it better that people espousing these notions are no-platformed and shut down, so that the movement goes underground where it can gather subversive momentum; or that it be exposed to the light of rational discourse which should show it up for the evolutionary dead-end that it is?

Let the racists speak, let them be shown up for the bullies and intellectual dwarfs that they are, let the paucity of their own arguments do the work for us.

When you approach these people with a closed fist, violent response is certain. Violence is never a valid rebuttal.

Snickers Man

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

This is priggishness of the highest order.

Do you really think Cork hurling fans are white supremacists, supporters of slavery and fans of the worst excesses of the Baluba that is in the White House now, just because they wave a Rebel Flag?

Get over yourself. Please.

The clue is in the name. Rebel County; Rebel Flag. That's why they fly it. Even though the name Rebel means completely different things in the different countries.

The world is a big diverse place. Common values of decency, respect, individual liberty, equality, free speech, right to due process of law etc et are fine but in matters of culture and symbolism there will always be things that mean one thing in one culture and another elsewhere.

Have a look at the following clip. It is a bunch of Orangemen in Belfast being deliberately provocative by playing a tune calculated to be offensive outside a Catholic Church.

Now show it to an American and ask them what they think. They will probably wonder how on earth the lovable Beach Boys ditty the Sloop John B could possibly be a problem for anyone.
Then tell them about the alternative lyrics that are sung by Rangers fans and their ilk.
Does this now mean that when the Boy Scouts of America are next gathered around the camp fire and somebody wants to sing the Sloop John B they have to issue a "Trigger Warning" and say "Original Lyrics Only!!! Please nobody get upset" ?

Come on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5cf2zlkpo

A Little Pony

super_furry wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Political flags/political banners at sporting events in general I disagree with, when going to a game or sporting event you re not there to see banners making political statements etc, some people don,t know when to leave their political beliefs/opinions at the door .

To be honest I can understand the Cork Confederate flag in the 80s and 90s because there was a bit of ignorance surrounding it. People over here at least didn't realise that it so wrapped up in the history of slavery and oppression and saw it as a 'Rebel' flag - something that fit well in Cork considering the colours.

Don't think there's much excuse these days though.

Will the American flag be banned or shunned? 
Anyone who wants just a white state is following the path of lunacy. Even as far back as Alexander or Caesar had different ethnicity in the respective armies and populace. Wanting solid controlled immigration and wanting some white ethno state is a different thing completely. 

Do people think it was only white working class who built the rail lines in America or worked during the gold rush and mining? The Chinese helped build the original infrastructure of America. Nazism and Communism are two ideologies which just don't work in the real world, both limit individual freedoms, take away freedom of speech and take away your aspirations, I refute both equally.

CosmicJay

super_furry wrote: »

Hahaha, brilliant. You honestly, HONESTLY, see no difference between a car being driven deliberately and purposefully into a group of counter protesters after a heated day of rhetoric in a political flashpoint and a car veering off the road going into a random crowd of people?

No-one needed to wait and see what happened in Charlottesville. From the moment the car was driven into a crowded group of anti-fascist protesters and then reversed and attempted to flee, it was obvious what happened.

When cars or trucks plough into crowds in Europe going forward, people wont need to wait and see what happened, it will be obvious what happened.

They will be some form of Islamic Extremist.

Thanks for the clarification on your logic.

The Legend Of Kira

A Little Pony wrote: »

super_furry wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Political flags/political banners at sporting events in general I disagree with, when going to a game or sporting event you re not there to see banners making political statements etc, some people don,t know when to leave their political beliefs/opinions at the door .

To be honest I can understand the Cork Confederate flag in the 80s and 90s because there was a bit of ignorance surrounding it. People over here at least didn't realise that it so wrapped up in the history of slavery and oppression and saw it as a 'Rebel' flag - something that fit well in Cork considering the colours.

Don't think there's much excuse these days though.

Will the American flag be banned or shunned? 
Anyone who wants just a white state is following the path of lunacy. Even as far back as Alexander or Caesar had different ethnicity in the respective armies and populace. Wanting solid controlled immigration and wanting some white ethno state is a different thing completely. 

Do people think it was only white working class who built the rail lines in America or worked during the gold rush and mining? The Chinese helped build the original infrastructure of America. Nazism and Communism are two ideologies which just don't work in the real world, both limit individual freedoms, take away freedom of speech and take away your aspirations, I refute both equally.

" Wanting solid controlled immigration and wanting some white ethno state is a different thing completely.  " + 1 I concur, I have never argued anywhere or on any thread for a " white ethno state  " what I have argued over for is a Immigration policy modeled on the Australian system of limited Immigration/limited time period for work visas & no entry for people who with serious criminal records, which I stand by .

wes

beans wrote: »

Violence is never a valid response to ideas, even really bad ideas.

They showed up armed to the teeth. This is a mockery of free speech and peaceful protest.

Look at how the US police reacted to BLM protests and DAPL water protectors. The cops were armed to the teeth (the national guards were at the DAPL protests), but they treated the Neo Nazi's armed to the teeth and who murdered people with kid gloves. There is something profoundly rotten with how the US treats protesters based on the color of there skin.

The Neo Nazi's have made it very clear that they have 0 intention of peaceful protests showing up armed to the teeth like they do.

Billy Mays

CosmicJay wrote: »

When cars or trucks plough into crowds in Europe going forward, people wont need to wait and see what happened, it will be obvious what happened.

They will be some form of Islamic Extremist.

Thanks for the clarification on your logic.

Speaking of logic, can you explain why you think people who don't want Nazis and white supremacists marching through their town are communists?

beans

wes wrote: »

They showed up armed to the teeth. This is a mockery of free speech and peaceful protest.

Right, to clarify I think what happened in Virgina was a huge failure on both sides, each showed up armed. It was never going to be anything other than a brawl, and that's a shame.

I was more passing general commentary on the notion that it's ok to do violence to people based on their politics. 'Punch a Nazi', that idea. That's not ok.

wes

beans wrote: »

Right, to clarify I think what happened in Virgina was a huge failure on both sides, each showed up armed. It was never going to be anything other than a brawl, and that's a shame.

Thanks for the clarification, but from what I see one side was armed to the teeth and that was the Nazi's that killed and injured people. There isn't really a equivalence.

beans wrote: »

I was more passing general commentary on the notion that it's ok to do violence to people based on their politics. 'Punch a Nazi', that idea. That's not ok.

Yes, I agree punching any peaceful person is wrong, regardless of how loathsome there ideology is.

The fact is that these Neo Nazi's aren't peaceful, and there attacks are becoming more and more common, and they have allies in the White House, with Miller, Bannon and Gorka still inexplicably there.

CosmicJay

Billy Mays wrote: »

Speaking of logic, can you explain why you think people who don't want Nazis and white supremacists marching through their town are communists?

Its really easy, you tag everyone who marched in protest of that statue being torn down as being a white supremacist, and neo-Nazi, racist etc etc.

Theres absolutely 100% no way there are any non-Nazi's in there right?

Billy Mays wrote: »

Agree with this

Personally speaking I don't have a problem with neo nazis and white supremacists getting a kicking.

It should be encouraged if anything

You even supported violence against these people. You saw an article on the internet and decided yes, I support violence against this entire section of people.

If you can make those generalisations why cant I?

jooksavage

beans wrote: »

Right, to clarify I think what happened in Virgina was a huge failure on both sides, each showed up armed. It was never going to be anything other than a brawl, and that's a shame.

I was more passing general commentary on the notion that it's ok to do violence to people based on their politics. 'Punch a Nazi', that idea. That's not ok.

I think it's important to remember when we talk about sides here, one side are ACTUAL NAZIS. And the Nazis' right peaceful assembly is somewhat undermined when one of their number murders a counter-protestor. Things have really changed in the last couple of years: one time no-one would give a sh** what happened to Nazi scum. Now society is supposed to indulge them as they parade about sieg-heiling and harassing people. No wonder they think we're all snowflakes.

The Legend Of Kira

jooksavage wrote: »

beans wrote: »

Right, to clarify I think what happened in Virgina was a huge failure on both sides, each showed up armed.  It was never going to be anything other than a brawl, and that's a shame.  

I was more passing general commentary on the notion that it's ok to do violence to people based on their politics.  'Punch a Nazi', that idea.  That's not ok.

I think it's important to remember when we talk about sides here,  one side are ACTUAL NAZIS. And the Nazis' right peaceful assembly is  somewhat undermined when one of their number murders a counter-protestor. Things have really changed in the last couple of years: one time no-one would give a sh** what happened to Nazi scum. Now society is supposed to indulge them as they parade about sieg-heiling and harassing people. No wonder they think we're all snowflakes.

On one side there are two categories of Trump supporters ( Category A ) people from different backgrounds who are moderate right who support Trump vs ( Category B ) an extreme right element who support Trump, most people on the left fail to make any distinction between the two, then there,s the other side the side who riot in the streets when a democratic election doesn,t go their way,  who violently target anyone who supports Trump, who displays political banners calling for " more dead cops " lets call a spade a spade here if an extreme right element go on the way Antifa do there would of being calls to ban + proscribe such groups long ago .

Billy Mays

CosmicJay wrote: »

Its really easy, you tag everyone who marched in protest of that statue being torn down as being a white supremacist, and neo-Nazi, racist etc etc.

Theres absolutely 100% no way there are any non-Nazi's in there right?



You even supported violence against these people. You saw an article on the internet and decided yes, I support violence against this entire section of people.

If you can make those generalisations why cant I?

You attend a rally that was organised by white supremacists, features neo Nazi and white supremacist speakers and features Nazi imagery on it's posters well then you're gonna get called a neo Nazi or a white supremacist.


As mentioned earlier it was not organised by moderate right wingers as some other poster claimed. Personally speaking if I turned up to protest against the statue being taken down and saw the dregs that were in attendance I'd be out of there like a shot.


Here's the poster that was used to advertise the rally


It doesn't even mention anything about the removal of the statue ffs

Danzy

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

On one side there are two categories of Trump supporters ( Category A ) people from different backgrounds who are moderate right who support Trump vs ( Category B ) an extreme right element who support Trump, most people on the left fail to make any distinction between the two, then there,s the other side the side who riot in the streets when a democratic election doesn,t go their way,  who violently target anyone who supports Trump, who displays political banners calling for " more dead cops " lets call a spade a spade here if an extreme right element go on the way Antifa do there would of being calls to ban + proscribe such groups long ago .

Either side does not do nuance, like all authoritarians they see people as groups with that group identity determining thought and guilt.

White sheets, black hoodies, **** all difference bar the wash cycle on laundry day.

The Legend Of Kira

Billy Mays wrote: »

CosmicJay wrote: »

Its really easy, you tag everyone who marched in protest of that statue being torn down as being a white supremacist, and neo-Nazi, racist etc etc.

Theres absolutely 100% no way there are any non-Nazi's in there right?



You even supported violence against these people. You saw an article on the internet and decided yes, I support violence against this entire section of people.

If you can make those generalisations why cant I?

You attend a rally that was organised by white supremacists, features neo Nazi and white supremacist speakers and features Nazi imagery on it's posters well then you're gonna get called a neo Nazi or a white supremacist.


As mentioned earlier it was not organised by moderate right wingers as some other poster claimed. Personally speaking if I turned up to protest  against the statue being taken down and saw the dregs that were in attendance I'd be out of there like a shot.


Here's the poster that was used to advertise the rally


It doesn't even mention anything about the removal of the statue ffs

Just looked at the list of speakers, the only one whose political views Id be kinda know of/know about would be that spencer fellow , + even if someone weren,t familiar with any of the speakers the useage of the black eagle imagery makes it clear what they re about .

ancapailldorcha

Nonsense deleted. No more link dumping and one-liners please.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Snickers Man wrote: »

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

This is priggishness of the highest order.

Do you really think Cork hurling fans are white supremacists, supporters of slavery and fans of the worst excesses of the Baluba that is in the White House now, just because they wave a Rebel Flag?

Get over yourself. Please.

The clue is in the name. Rebel County; Rebel Flag. That's why they fly it. Even though the name Rebel means completely different things in the different countries.

The world is a big diverse place. Common values of decency, respect, individual liberty, equality, free speech, right to due process of law etc et are fine but in matters of culture and symbolism there will always be things that mean one thing in one culture and another elsewhere.

Have a look at the following clip. It is a bunch of Orangemen in Belfast being deliberately provocative by playing a tune calculated to be offensive outside a Catholic Church.

Your logic is backwards. The Cork fand are taking a symbol of hatred amd oppression and treating it as something trivial. The Orange Order, in that case, ate taking something innocuous and making it offensive. A better comparisonia to imagine that the Denver Broncos used Orange Order imagery because of the colours.

InTheTrees

If the nazis didn't hold rally's then "antifa" wouldn't even exist.
And then the nazis whine about people opposing them.

Danzy

InTheTrees wrote: »

If the nazis didn't hold rally's then "antifa" wouldn't even exist.
And then the nazis whine about people opposing them.

They both need each other, the best course of action would be to surround both of them and fire their authoritarian asses in to space.

hatrickpatrick

If this whole saga has taught me one thing, it's that Horseshoe Theory has some credibility, far more than I used to think.

hatrickpatrick

InTheTrees wrote: »

If the nazis didn't hold rally's then "antifa" wouldn't even exist.
And then the nazis whine about people opposing them.

In my view it's the other way around - check the article I posted a few pages back, the constant drumbeat of "whites / men / white men are the root of all evil and should be ashamed of themselves for things they've never actually done" preceded the rise of the alt-right - and in many journalists' views directly precipitated it.

wes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In my view it's the other way around - check the article I posted a few pages back, the constant drumbeat of "whites / men / white men are the root of all evil and should be ashamed of themselves for things they've never actually done" preceded the rise of the alt-right - and in many journalists' views directly precipitated it.

Yeah, because minorities are never vilified in the media :rolleyes:. David Duke and his ilk have been around for decades. There just showing there faces due to Trump and the other white supremacists in the White house.

If what your saying is true, I can only imagine how these Neo Nazi's would act if they were actually oppressed, like lets say Christians in Iraq murdered by ISIS, or Rohinga murdered by radical Buddhists. Those people face real oppression, and its quite frankly offensive that your would even insinuate that White men in the US are oppressed on the basis of there skin color.

The fact that they weren't shot for parading around with high end guns, proves your claim wrong.

**EDIT**
Also, just to add what your saying is actually incredibly offensive to white men. To suggest that people saying mean things made these guys embrace extremism is utterly absurd.

What is happening is that extremist prey on weak willde young men (much like ISIS do actually), and then use lies to present them a world view, where there the only victim. It is a deliberate recruitment of disaffected young men, some of whom are poor and in a bad way, but not all. Some are middle class, with every advantage. The commonality is they get radicalized online.
**END EDIT**