Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Danzy

FTA69 wrote: »

To be honest I don't the people at Charlotteville as a natural consequence of young men being brutally silenced and denigrated by the PC left, I see them as nasty, bigoted arseholes who feel they're now in a position to be more open about their neo-Nazi politics than they were before.

And I'm not exaggerating here by the way, "Nazi" is a perfectly adequate term for someone who brandishes a swastika, gives straight arm salutes and advocates white supremacy. These were they type of people on show last week, and this was the ideology that motivated one of their activists to plough a car into protestors.

I think the root cause of people voting Trump (and people like him across the world) is economic insecurity and a feeling of helplessness as jobs and social protections are stripped away. I also think the vast majority of Trump voters would be disgusted by skinhead yobs flying a swastika flag.

Agreed, the events there were awful but the turn out was also very small, lets not pretend that a micro gathering of activists in a country that size, of a 1000 people from all over America is the march on Rome.

Tiny would not begin to describe the scale these retorgrades are at - people should oppose them but there is a lot of bigging them up as well, for their ow reasons, having a righteous cause to fight the tyrants, so they feed off each other.

Let the State arrest and jail the ****s attacking that man, or anyone who instigated violence. Not some Middle Class kids in blackshirts and hoodies playing revolutionary now that College is out.

There are a lot of dysfunctional people opposing them as well, I have no doubt either side would pack the camps if they ever got into power as well.

I don't trust that the people like antifa, the new left, the self declared Liberal Progressive will stop at them, anyone who is not as Left as Trotsky or Kropotkin is liable to be judged.

The Left and Liberal (modern definition) side of politics is veering towards witch hunting and heretic burning and anyone can have the finger pointed at them.

There is always a danger in holding a conviction that one is absolutely morally correct, it smacks of religious fanatism and for that reason, I think the broad left in America has become something worrying.

I have no time for these Nazis, actual Nazis but the term Nazi and fascist has been so thrown around that for many it no longer holds meaning.

There is a harvest being reaped here.

Trump won because he wasn't more of the same and Clinton was the most "more of the same" candidate in decades. It is easier to look at those who voted for him and call them thick than accept there must be very good reasons that Steel workers who voted twice for Obama, went for him, that is difficult and demands change.

PopePalpatine

Akrasia wrote: »

There is a picture going around of 4 white men beating an unarmed black man in Charleston with wooden poles while another white man points a 9mm pistol at people trying to save him and a photographer taking pictures of the assault





These people are scum.

<alt-right logic>B-b-but the black man provoked them!</alt-right logic>

wes

Akrasia wrote: »

There is a picture going around of 4 white men beating an unarmed black man in Charleston with wooden poles while another white man points a 9mm pistol at people trying to save him and a photographer taking pictures of the assault

Apparently happened right beside a police station too. Again, if this BLM or the water protectors, they would have tanks in the streets. The white supremacists were allowed run riot and beat and murder people with impunity.

Also, the fact that these guys were able to go home on planes etc, despite these photos being available for days, and being shown in the media is astonishing to me.

Its amazing to me that Nazi's are able to get away with this.

wes

PopePalpatine wrote: »

<alt-right logic>B-b-but the black man provoked them!</alt-right logic>

There celebrating this as a victory, all the while laughing at the "normies" defending there free speech.

Silver Lynel

PopePalpatine wrote: »

<alt-right logic>B-b-but the black man provoked them!</alt-right logic>

Can you explain exactly what the Alt-Right is?

How is it any different from just the regular Right?

Is there a difference between, Right, Alt-Right, White Supermacists and Neo-Nazis? If there is then how much of a difference?

I am becoming concerned that people commenting on, or having discussions about, politics don't actually have much of a grasp on the terminology they are using.

Ronaldinho

Anyone got a link to that Charleston attack? Couldn't find anything there.

marcus001

Akrasia wrote: »

There is a picture going around of 4 white men beating an unarmed black man in Charleston with wooden poles while another white man points a 9mm pistol at people trying to save him and a photographer taking pictures of the assault





These people are scum.

Pictures can be deceiving you don't know who that started it.

20Cent

wes wrote: »

Apparently happened right beside a police station too. Again, if this BLM or the water protectors, they would have tanks in the streets. The white supremacists were allowed run riot and beat and murder people with impunity.

Also, the fact that these guys were able to go home on planes etc, despite these photos being available for days, and being shown in the media is astonishing to me.

Its amazing to me that Nazi's are able to get away with this.

White privilege.
BLM people are beaten rounded up and jailed on the spot.

marcus001

wes wrote: »

Apparently happened right beside a police station too. Again, if this BLM or the water protectors, they would have tanks in the streets. The white supremacists were allowed run riot and beat and murder people with impunity.

Also, the fact that these guys were able to go home on planes etc, despite these photos being available for days, and being shown in the media is astonishing to me.

Its amazing to me that Nazi's are able to get away with this.

You're so ignorant of BLM violence its absurd. Remember when 5 cops were shot by a guy who identified with BLM and the Black Panthers? Tanks in the streets? Get real.

"Is they white?" "Burn that **** up"
https://mobile.twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/764763330980511745/video/1

Is this what you think Neo-Nazis would be allowed to do if the roles were reversed? Run riot and murder with impunity? How did these fine black gentlemen in the video acquire such white privilege?

Danzy

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Can you explain exactly what the Alt-Right is?

How is it any different from just the regular Right?

Is there a difference between, Right, Alt-Right, White Supermacists and Neo-Nazis? If there is then how much of a difference?

I am becoming concerned that people commenting on, or having discussions about, politics don't actually have much of a grasp on the terminology they are using.

The Alt Right varies from person to person and day to day, it can include people who are Jewish and gay to White Supremacists, old school liberals to even old fashioned lefties.

I would consider it those who are active or support racial supremacy, that is a very small group, too big, but very small in reality.

There is boutique hotels in Ireland who have a bigger online presence that Richard Spencer.

I have seen members of the SWP call SF members facists, the odd SF man call Labourites neo-fascists, Worker Party members call FG fascist, Labour facists etc and on and on, these terms have lost all meaning through overuse and over application.

Anyone "I do not like on a certain day but largely the militant, supremacist, far right" seems to be the practical application.

wes

20Cent wrote: »

White privilege.
BLM people are beaten rounded up and jailed on the spot.

I don't see how anyone can deny that anymore. The difference in the reaction is amazing. These guys openly organize on twitter, reddit and 4chan. The whole flag doubly as a weapon was openly talked about on twitter by "based stickman". They don't even need to hide ffs.

marcus001

20Cent wrote: »

White privilege.
BLM people are beaten rounded up and jailed on the spot.

BLM is an avowed anti-cop group whose members have murdered police up to very recently. They don't have to treat them the same.

Silver Lynel

FTA69 wrote: »

To be honest I don't the people at Charlotteville as a natural consequence of young men being brutally silenced and denigrated by the PC left, I see them as nasty, bigoted arseholes who feel they're now in a position to be more open about their neo-Nazi politics than they were before.

I tend to agree with this. These people have always been around and they exist pretty much everywhere in western society.

They are definitely emboldened once they get into a crowd. Especially if they are part of a crowd who will not stand up to them.

You have different "layers" to this general right wing movement and extremist groups are one of those layers.

They are not the entirety of the "right wing" though and I think one of the things we really should be careful of is tarring everyone with the same brush.

I've asked people many times to explain what "alt-right" means and what the difference is between the "alt-right" and the regular "right" and when I do get an answer it's usually not a very good one.

I've felt like the more the phrase "alt-right" is used the less clear it's meaning becomes. Is the "alt-right" just the right? Or does it really mean "American Right" or are we meaning "Online Right"?

Is there a gap between the right, the alt-right, neo-nazis, white supremacists, white nationalists, race realists, fascists? How much of a gap?

What I see sometimes is that people who have negative views on Feminism, for example, are categorized as "Alt-Right" when they don't appear to hold many, or any, right wing views and don't appear to be racist or homophobic etc.

The logic seems to be something along the lines of...

You are annoyed that Dr Who is a woman now. So you must hate women. You know who else hates women? The alt-right! You know another thing about the alt-right? They are racist, white supremacist, nazis. So I guess you are too. Oh, by the way, we are going to punch all Nazis!

So you end up with all these people who don't belong in the same category as neo-nazis and/or far right extremists turning a blind eye because those extremist groups are willing to inflict violence and "revenge" on the people who have treated then unfairly.

Imagine if some colleague at work was bullying you and spreading lies about you and as a result you just outright hate them as a person. Then one night you are out on the town and you see that same colleague being slapped around by some skinhead thug. Are you going to intervene?

The left seems to have alienated a lot of people who are actually very left leaning and now I feel like those alienated people are either ignoring or even encouraging far-right rhetoric because they enjoy watching the people who alienated them get their "comeuppance".

As a result the far-right become bolder and more numerous as people enjoy the power of being able to join a crowd and have someone else stick it to their opponents.

Even the "punch a nazi" hardmen online. Are they going to do the nazi punching themselves or will they be expecting someone else to do it for them?

More and more people on the left come across as arrogant, smug and out of touch. More and more they will passive aggressively shut down people who have a different opinion and will outright hound people who disagree with them.

The crazed Neo-Nazi, racist, contingent who are outright looking for violence have always been there. Now we are throwing people who don't belong in that category in with them and those people are just looking the other way while the extremist rhetoric spreads itself and takes hold.

How can it be that these fringe groups seem to be growing and becoming more visible and/or relevant?

There is even an impression that the left are these stuffy humorless authoritarians and the right are so edgy and alternative and funny. This is probably attractive to young people. It's worrying.

Used to be that the right would be trying to ban video games or Pokemon or Harry Potter and the young people would laugh at them and seek out ways to rebel against them. Now it seems like the impression is that the right are the rebels and the left are the authoritarian, no fun, censorious, establishment.

In American, it is escalating to violence now and that's a really, really, worrying trend.

If people want to "punch a nazi" then they need to be sure that the people getting punched are actually nazis. They also need to be prepared for the possibility that there are nazis who are itching for an opportunity to punch back.

It was only a matter of time before somebody died over this.

Now that it has happened maybe it's time for these activist groups to step back and take a good look at themselves.

Maybe it's time for people who ignored the racism and extreme rhetoric from the right because it was triggering people they personally dislike to take a good look at themselves too because they are allowing the violent element that has always been there to feel like the violence is finally justified.

marcus001

wes wrote: »

There celebrating this as a victory, all the while laughing at the "normies" defending there free speech.

Where are they celebrating this? Are you undercover or something?

marcus001

Danzy wrote: »

The Alt Right varies from person to person and day to day, it can include people who are Jewish and gay to White Supremacists, old school liberals to even old fashioned lefties.

I would consider it those who are active or support racial supremacy, that is a very small group, too big, but very small in reality.

There is boutique hotels in Ireland who have a bigger online presence that Richard Spencer.

I have seen members of the SWP call SF members facists, the odd SF man call Labourites neo-fascists, Worker Party members call FG fascist, Labour facists etc and on and on, these terms have lost all meaning through overuse and over application.

Anyone "I do not like on a certain day but largely the militant, supremacist, far right" seems to be the practical application.

Alt-right describes any right wing ideology that is outside of the mainstream. Everything from white nationalism to anarcho capitalism and monarchism. Its technically incorrect to say that the alt right only means racist ideologies but that's what it has come to mean.

20Cent

marcus001 wrote: »

BLM is an avowed anti-cop group whose members have murdered police up to very recently. They don't have to treat them the same.

Left wing violence: every single left wing is personally responsible and directly working for Stalin's ghost.

Right wing violence: the left made us do it. (But but Obama but but Hillary's emails etc....)

PopePalpatine

Silver Lynel wrote: »

Can you explain exactly what the Alt-Right is?

How is it any different from just the regular Right?

Is there a difference between, Right, Alt-Right, White Supermacists and Neo-Nazis? If there is then how much of a difference?

I am becoming concerned that people commenting on, or having discussions about, politics don't actually have much of a grasp on the terminology they are using.

It's a new breed of the far-right which emerged from the cesspits of the Internet. Are you satisfied with that?

Danzy

Silver Lynel wrote: »

I tend to agree with this. These people have always been around and they exist pretty much everywhere in western society.

They are definitely emboldened once they get into a crowd. Especially if they are part of a crowd who will not stand up to them.

You have different "layers" to this general right wing movement and extremist groups are one of those layers.

They are not the entirety of the "right wing" though and I think one of the things we really should be careful of is tarring everyone with the same brush.

I've asked people many times to explain what "alt-right" means and what the difference is between the "alt-right" and the regular "right" and when I do get an answer it's usually not a very good one.

I've felt like the more the phrase "alt-right" is used the less clear it's meaning becomes. Is the "alt-right" just the right? Or does it really mean "American Right" or are we meaning "Online Right"?

Is there a gap between the right, the alt-right, neo-nazis, white supremacists, white nationalists, race realists, fascists? How much of a gap?

What I see sometimes is that people who have negative views on Feminism, for example, are categorized as "Alt-Right" when they don't appear to hold many, or any, right wing views and don't appear to be racist or homophobic etc.

The logic seems to be something along the lines of...

You are annoyed that Dr Who is a woman now. So you must hate women. You know who else hates women? The alt-right! You know another thing about the alt-right? They are racist, white supremacist, nazis. So I guess you are too. Oh, by the way, we are going to punch all Nazis!

So you end up with all these people who don't belong in the same category as neo-nazis and/or far right extremists turning a blind eye because those extremist groups are willing to inflict violence and "revenge" on the people who have treated then unfairly.

Imagine if some colleague at work was bullying you and spreading lies about you and as a result you just outright hate them as a person. Then one night you are out on the town and you see that same colleague being slapped around by some skinhead thug. Are you going to intervene?

The left seems to have alienated a lot of people who are actually very left leaning and now I feel like those alienated people are either ignoring or even encouraging far-right rhetoric because they enjoy watching the people who alienated them get their "comeuppance".

As a result the far-right become bolder and more numerous as people enjoy the power of being able to join a crowd and have someone else stick it to their opponents.

Even the "punch a nazi" hardmen online. Are they going to do the nazi punching themselves or will they be expecting someone else to do it for them?

More and more people on the left come across as arrogant, smug and out of touch. More and more they will passive aggressively shut down people who have a different opinion and will outright hound people who disagree with them.

The crazed Neo-Nazi, racist, contingent who are outright looking for violence have always been there. Now we are throwing people who don't belong in that category in with them and those people are just looking the other way while the extremist rhetoric spreads itself and takes hold.

How can it be that these fringe groups seem to be growing and becoming more visible and/or relevant?

There is even an impression that the left are these stuffy humorless authoritarians and the right are so edgy and alternative and funny. This is probably attractive to young people. It's worrying.

Used to be that the right would be trying to ban video games or Pokemon or Harry Potter and the young people would laugh at them and seek out ways to rebel against them. Now it seems like the impression is that the right are the rebels and the left are the authoritarian, no fun, censorious, establishment.

In American, it is escalating to violence now and that's a really, really, worrying trend.

If people want to "punch a nazi" then they need to be sure that the people getting punched are actually nazis. They also need to be prepared for the possibility that there are nazis who are itching for an opportunity to punch back.

It was only a matter of time before somebody died over this.

Now that it has happened maybe it's time for these activist groups to step back and take a good look at themselves.

Maybe it's time for people who ignored the racism and extreme rhetoric from the right because it was triggering people they personally dislike to take a good look at themselves too because they are allowing the violent element that has always been there to feel like the violence is finally justified.

Fantastic post, I agree with it and think it is spot on, others may not but there is I suspect a lot of us who support a Class Analysis of economics who the modern left is doing its level best to alienate, nevermind old generational voters who many on the left seem to despise and are open in that.

I think that it will take another few years for this to flush through, the up-and-coming activists are often some deeply bizarre people, who have very limited understanding of life, will there be a Left of any note by then.

I'm no longer sure that it will be of a size to change anything, in much of Europe that boat has sailed, the Dutch, French results especially indicative, and the Germany ones coming up shortly.

Wanderer78

'Make America Great Again', it's kinna disturbing to watch it unfold! This country really needs to be United before it tears itself apart

wes

Looks like the Republican party and the Cops want to make terrorism legal for Nazi's:

BACKED BY POLICE UNIONS, LEGISLATORS STAND BY LAWS TO PROTECT DRIVERS WHO KILL PROTESTERS

This is so blatant it isn't even funny at this point.

At this point, the US police are as bad as any gang if you ask me.

Silver Lynel

marcus001 wrote: »

Alt-right describes any right wing ideology that is outside of the mainstream. Everything from white nationalism to anarcho capitalism and monarchism. Its technically incorrect to say that the alt right only means racist ideologies but that's what it has come to mean.

This was how I understood it, that Alt-Right was kind of Right Wing+.

However, I see a lot of people branded "alt right" who do not appear to have any right wing views at all.

Surely someone should have mostly right wing views before they can be labelled "alt-right"?

Sometimes I feel like "alt-right" really means "not left enough" and there are a good few posters on Boards who perpetuate that idea.

This is why I ask well what is the difference between "alt-right" and just plain "right"? There are so many labels for these people but what are the difference between the labels?

Can a person be alt-right without holding many right wing views?

Danzy

Silver Lynel wrote: »

This was how I understood it, that Alt-Right was kind of Right Wing+.

However, I see a lot of people branded "alt right" who do not appear to have any right wing views at all.

Surely someone should have mostly right wing views before they can be labelled "alt-right"?

Sometimes I feel like "alt-right" really means "not left enough" and there are a good few posters on Boards who perpetuate that idea.

This is why I ask well what is the difference between "alt-right" and just plain "right"? There are so many labels for these people but what are the difference between the labels?

Can a person be alt-right without holding many right wing views?

There are widely held technical definitions of what it means but it has also become a pejorative, a way to undermine someone who you disagree with or more likely disagrees with you.

Like calling someone a "capitalist roadster" in Mao's China.

They could, in reality, have any no. of views on the political spectrum.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Silver Lynel

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's a new breed of the far-right which emerged from the cesspits of the Internet. Are you satisfied with that?

So the alt-right is just the far-right but from The Internet?

Got it. I shall add it to the ever expanding list of definitions for "alt right".

So if someone isn't on the far right but people are still calling them "alt right" then that's wrong. Got it.

Danzy

Silver Lynel wrote: »

So the alt-right is just the far-right but from The Internet?

Got it. I shall add it to the ever expanding list of definitions for "alt right".

So if someone isn't on the far right but people are still calling them "alt right" then that's wrong. Got it.

You know they think we are Alt Right and among the worst type of Alt Right at that.

StringerBell

Wouldn't it be simpler to ask someone who consider themselves to be part of the alt right what they define as alt right?

Or even simpler to not claim ignorance?

Snickers Man

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Your logic is backwards. The Cork fand are taking a symbol of hatred amd oppression and treating it as something trivial. The Orange Order, in that case, ate taking something innocuous and making it offensive.

Doesn't matter. That song is tainted now. And a Northern Irish Catholic, or even an Irish American descendant of people who emigrated during the Famine might think that some people are having a sly dig at them. And could be offended.

And just WHO do YOU think you are to tell them that what their feelings should and shouldn't be?

If someone somewhere, anywhere, could be offended, your logic goes, then whoever is doing the offending, however innocently, should cease and desist immediately.

There's another example of a tune that got desperately tainted. There's a beautiful old German folk melody that sounds really good if sung to the appropriate lyrics by a couple of voices in harmony. Trouble is, it was taken in the 1920s by a Storm Trooper called Horst Wessel who wrote new lyrics to it and it became the anthem of the Nazi party. And also an alternative German national anthem, I believe, during the Nazi period.

If you were to sing that tune, which as I say is a lovely old tune that LONG predates Herr Wessel, in Germany today or in front of an audience containing Jewish people you'd need to be bloody sure you had issued a trigger warning and that you were NOT using the more recent lyrics that Horst Wessel had assigned to it.

And even then you probably wouldn't get away with it.

Read about the history of the Horst Wessel Lied and the various inoffensive lyrics to songs from which the melody was snitched here

Snickers Man

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't know why people are talking about Cork GAA but let's get back on topic please.

In fairness, the use of the Rebel flag by fans of the Rebel County is a related topic, I would respectfully suggest. And it has come in for some commentary in the MMM.

And here.

marcus001

20Cent wrote: »

Left wing violence: every single left wing is personally responsible and directly working for Stalin's ghost.

Right wing violence: the left made us do it. (But but Obama but but Hillary's emails etc....)

Police use heuristics when dealing with groups.

PopePalpatine

StringerBell wrote: »

Wouldn't it be simpler to ask someone who consider themselves to be part of the alt right what they define as alt right?

Or even simpler to not claim ignorance?

Have a read for yourself.

In summary, he believed in white supremacy, a Zionist conspiracy, that women were untrustworthy (one concept that crops up in the alt-right is "white Sharia", which is basically The Handmaiden's Tale becoming real life) and that white masculinity was under attack.

20Cent

Trump just retweeted a fox and friends article saying he is considering a pardon for Joe Arpiro. Someone replied "he's a fascist so not unusual". Trump then retweeted that reply.

Is he senile?