Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Brian?

BillyBobBS wrote: »

The worst of American society on view the other day. Both extreme hate groups. Sickening tbh...

I'm not an Antifa supporting, being a pacifist and all. But who do they direct their anger at? Fascist groups. Seems almost reasonable.

Now the other side, the Neo Nazis and white surprmecists. Who do they direct their anger at? Everyone who isn't them. They hate you and I for being Irish, or they used to. They hate gays, black people, Jews, muslims, brown people, Asians, native Americans and white people who marry outside their race etc etc.

To paint them as 2 sides of the same coin is patently ridiculous. I don't approve of Antifa's methods or tactics, but they are most certainly not a hate group.

I would support Anitfa if they peacefully protested at white "nationalist" events. Any reasonable person should. These are hate groups.

wes

wes wrote: »

The fact that they weren't shot for parading around with high end guns, proves your claim wrong.

I wonder what would have happened if a few black guys turned up kitted out in all the tactical gear and assault rifles like the white supremacists did.

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder what would have happened if a few black guys turned up kitted out in all the tactical gear and assault rifles like the white supremacists did.

They opposition does show up similarly equipped, from time to time.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c1543a_f8af286cef4c49059f79355a30de9316~mv2.jpg

http://www.thefringenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/www.intellihub.com17424899_419062565125516_-662d0e90561d32162f5533624d03e7caf057eba5.jpg

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1483/98/1483988058069.jpg

I wouldn't use the 50-round mags, personally, they are unreliable.

Although, in fairness, those who are more left-leaning tend to be less likely to own firearms. A situation a number have observed puts them at a relative disadvantage, and which they have started to rectify. Who knew, that the minorities are re-discovering that one of the stated benefits of emancipation at the time was that the blacks could arm themselves to protect themselves against racists...

oscarBravo

Manic Moran wrote: »

Although, in fairness, those who are more left-leaning tend to be less likely to own firearms. A situation a number have observed puts them at a relative disadvantage, and which they have started to rectify.

Oh yay. More guns. That'll calm things down.

B0jangles

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh yay. More guns. That'll calm things down.

With this kind of advertising being used by the NRA, I think we can expect even more violence against protesters in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK_jkPhrddc

The above is a genuine ad by the NRA, not a parody.

Edit: Before its said that they do not explicitly call for violence, they do everything in their power to depict anti-Trump protesters as The Enemy, talk about the 'Clenched Fist of Truth" and are you, know, in the business of convincing people to buy as many guns as possible. They know exactly what they are doing, and it's terrifying.

20Cent

Manic Moran wrote: »

They opposition does show up similarly equipped, from time to time.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c1543a_f8af286cef4c49059f79355a30de9316~mv2.jpg

http://www.thefringenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/www.intellihub.com17424899_419062565125516_-662d0e90561d32162f5533624d03e7caf057eba5.jpg

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1483/98/1483988058069.jpg

I wouldn't use the 50-round mags, personally, they are unreliable.

All the armed people in those photos look white to me.

The Legend Of Kira

Brian? wrote: »

BillyBobBS wrote: »

The worst of American society on view the other day. Both extreme hate groups. Sickening tbh...

I'm not an Antifa supporting, being a pacifist and all. But who do they direct their anger at? Fascist groups. Seems almost reasonable.

Now the other side, the Neo Nazis and white surprmecists.  Who do they direct their anger at? Everyone who isn't them. They hate you and I for being Irish, or they used to. They hate gays, black people, Jews, muslims, brown people, Asians, native Americans and white people who marry outside their race etc etc.

To paint them as 2 sides of the same coin is patently ridiculous. I don't approve of Antifa's methods or tactics, but they are most certainly not a hate group.

I would support Anitfa if they peacefully protested at white "nationalist" events. Any reasonable person should. These are hate groups.

" But who do they direct their anger at? Fascist groups. Seems almost reasonable.  " If it were just " fascist " groups like the Bnp they were against Id say reasonable but its not just groups like the Bnp they oppose its also anyone who publicly advocate for strong Immigration controls as evident in the past here when they disrupted public meetings of groups seeking restrictions on Immigration + when they assaulted a speaker about to argue a case for Immigration control at a college debate in 2004, I can also point out they targeted Ukip in the past too also , now Ukip are right wing and that but they are moderates they aren,t white supremacists or anything of the sort, Ann Coulter also targeted by Antifa yes  shes right wing and that but she isn,t  a white supremacist nor a fascist, only about two months ago they attacked Andrew Bolt an Australian conservative in the street, once again this person isn,t a white supremacist nor a fascist .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anUyzZzz4Q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anUyzZzz4Q0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anUyzZzz4Q0

Recently enough New Jersey homeland security has placed Antifa on domestic counter terrorism list.

https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa

hatrickpatrick

wes wrote: »

Yeah, because minorities are never vilified in the media :rolleyes:. David Duke and his ilk have been around for decades. There just showing there faces due to Trump and the other white supremacists in the White house.

If what your saying is true, I can only imagine how these Neo Nazi's would act if they were actually oppressed, like lets say Christians in Iraq murdered by ISIS, or Rohinga murdered by radical Buddhists. Those people face real oppression, and its quite frankly offensive that your would even insinuate that White men in the US are oppressed on the basis of there skin color.

The fact that they weren't shot for parading around with high end guns, proves your claim wrong.

**EDIT**
Also, just to add what your saying is actually incredibly offensive to white men. To suggest that people saying mean things made these guys embrace extremism is utterly absurd.

What is happening is that extremist prey on weak willde young men (much like ISIS do actually), and then use lies to present them a world view, where there the only victim. It is a deliberate recruitment of disaffected young men, some of whom are poor and in a bad way, but not all. Some are middle class, with every advantage. The commonality is they get radicalized online.
**END EDIT**

So you don't believe there's any possibility that living in a culture which routinely sh!ts on you for who you are while telling you that you couldn't possibly be a victim of racism or sexism might assist in radicalising young people?

super_furry

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So you don't believe there's any possibility that living in a culture which routinely sh!ts on you for who you are while telling you that you couldn't possibly be a victim of racism or sexism might assist in radicalising young people?

Turn off the internet and stop looking for idiots on tumblr and in their own self-selecting community and I simply don't believe that's happening in wider society. Sure there's the fringe lunatics in universities but they've always been there. It's no mistake that the current generation of white nationalists are the first generation to have grown up online.

Brian?

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

" But who do they direct their anger at? Fascist groups. Seems almost reasonable.  " If it were just " fascist " groups like the Bnp they were against Id say reasonable but its not just groups like the Bnp they oppose its also anyone who publicly advocate for strong Immigration controls as evident in the past here when the disrupted public meetings of groups seeking restrictions on Immigration + when they assaulted a speaker about to argue a case for Immigration control at a college debate in 2004, I can also point out they targeted Ukip in the past too also , now Ukip are right wing and that but they are moderates they aren,t white supremacists or anything of the sort, Ann Coulter also targeted by Antifa yes  shes right wing and that but she isn,t  a white supremacist nor a fascist, only about two months ago they attacked Andrew Bolt an Australian conservative in the street, once again this person isn,t a white supremacist nor a fascist .

I know nothing about Andrew Bolton.

Ann Coulter regularly spews hatred, she's not a fascist. The UKIPs are not moderate.

I'm quite happy for them to be peacefully opposed.

I don't think Antifa existed in 2004.

wes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So you don't believe there's any possibility that living in a culture which routinely sh!ts on you for who you are while telling you that you couldn't possibly be a victim of racism or sexism might assist in radicalising young people?

It doesn't happen as much as your suggest. Maybe some places online, that I doubt these guys frequent.

FFS, the vast majority of media shows white men as heroes, be it television, video games, or movies. Let not pretend that some how white men are being vilified in all aspects of American culture. Its absurd to think that white men are so weak willed that a few shrill people online going overboard, will make them join up with Nazi's. The simple fact is that the vast majority aren't as weak and pathetic as these Nazi's.

Look at how Dylann Root and Ander Breivik (i know different country) (or Elliot Rodgers for the combo self hating racist and misogynist variant) to name a few, were radicalized, it was via the Internet and various lies, exaggerations against minorities groups and nonsense about "white genocide", or about how there owed a Woman. The people either radicalize themselves, by seeking out hateful material, or end up being recruited by other extremists. All of this is well documented, and there major beef is other groups getting equality.

You also have an American President who attacks minority groups in pretty vile ways, be they Transgender people, Mexican, Muslim, Women or African Americans. The vile garbage, that these Nazis (and the US President) spew against minorities, pales in comparison to anything said by some nutter online somewhere (i would argue that the overwhelmingly positive representation in pretty much all aspects of media more than makes up for this).

Please, go read what the Nazi's said about terror attack victim Heather Heyer on Deir Strommer, or whatever there vile little website is called. Read up on the daily and constant harassment against any Women on the Internet. Its a simple Google away. The type of hatred that Women of any race get online is truly astonishing. Sure if your a guy, you may get a bit of abuse, but a Women (White, black, Asian, doesn't matter) will receive is in order of magnitude worse, and yet I don't see Women running around castrating men on mass, considering how ****ing bad there treated online.

The Legend Of Kira

Brian? wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

" But who do they direct their anger at? Fascist groups. Seems almost reasonable.  " If it were just " fascist " groups like the Bnp they were against Id say reasonable but its not just groups like the Bnp they oppose its also anyone who publicly advocate for strong Immigration controls as evident in the past here when the disrupted public meetings of groups seeking restrictions on Immigration + when they assaulted a speaker about to argue a case for Immigration control at a college debate in 2004, I can also point out they targeted Ukip in the past too also , now Ukip are right wing and that but they are moderates they aren,t white supremacists or anything of the sort, Ann Coulter also targeted by Antifa yes  shes right wing and that but she isn,t  a white supremacist nor a fascist, only about two months ago they attacked Andrew Bolt an Australian conservative in the street, once again this person isn,t a white supremacist nor a fascist .

I know nothing about Andrew Bolton.

Ann Coulter regularly spews hatred, she's not a fascist. The UKIPs are not moderate.

I'm quite happy for them to be peacefully opposed.

I don't think Antifa existed in 2004.

Antifa short for anti fascist action attacked Justin Barrett as he was about address a debate on Immigration in Ucd in 2004, now as I said before on older threads he did express certain views in the past that Id disagree with him on such as his past opposition to divorce + his opposition to contraception, that said what separates me from Antifa is Im not one to go around physically attacking people because they disagree with me about political issues .

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/assault-on-speaker-at-ucd-debate-25893151.html

Samaris

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So you don't believe there's any possibility that living in a culture which routinely sh!ts on you for who you are while telling you that you couldn't possibly be a victim of racism or sexism might assist in radicalising young people?

Well, black people and women certainly had their radicalists (and they were usually told and still told that they can't possibly be victims of racism or sexism), so there's a potential of that.

It is still every individual's own choice to turn to violence.

For what it's worth, I am very uneasy about the punch a Nazi rhetoric too. I believe that being the first to resort to violence is a losing argument (and absolutely feeds into the oppressed victim narrative that they're pulling).

Snickers Man

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Your logic is backwards. The Cork fand are taking a symbol of hatred amd oppression and treating it as something trivial. The Orange Order, in that case, ate taking something innocuous and making it offensive. A better comparisonia to imagine that the Denver Broncos used Orange Order imagery because of the colours.

???

So are you saying the Cork fans are more at fault for being "trivial" than the Orange band members are for being "offensive"? You'll have to explain that logic to me.

My point is simply that a symbol, piece of artwork, flag etc that means something in one part of the world may mean something completely different elsewhere. The Stars and Bars is not offensive in itself. It's the meaning one invests in it that makes the difference. All the Cork fans are doing is saying "Hey Hey we're the Rebels"

And we know what they mean.

Snickers Man

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh yay. More guns. That'll calm things down.

An American solution to an American problem :rolleyes:

Overheal

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The two people I referred to in that post were Milo + Ann Coulter who had their speaking engagements at Berkley cancelled due to violence, are you seriously saying those two are " nazis " ?

They are both white supremacists whom are very vocally supportive of the Alt-Right. Milo even works for Breitbart, Bannon's flagship, which Bannon himself stated last July was a platform for the Alt-Right.

So yes. Those two are about a semantic label away from being neo-nazis.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Snickers Man wrote: »

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Your logic is backwards. The Cork fand are taking a symbol of hatred amd oppression and treating it as something trivial. The Orange Order, in that case, ate taking something innocuous and making it offensive. A better comparisonia to imagine that the Denver Broncos used Orange Order imagery because of the colours.

???

So are you saying the Cork fans are more at fault for being "trivial" than the Orange band members are for being "offensive"? You'll have to explain that logic to me.

My point is simply that a symbol, piece of artwork, flag etc that means something in one part of the world may mean something completely different elsewhere. The Stars and Bars is not offensive in itself. It's the meaning one invests in it that makes the difference. All the Cork fans are doing is saying "Hey Hey we're the Rebels"

And we know what they mean.

I am not saying that at all. I am saying that taking an innocuous thing and making it offensive does not make the original innocuous thing necessarily bad. But Cork fans are taking a symbol of oppression and trying to use it as a symbol of rebellion. It makes no sense and whether or not they are aware of the origin, it's disgusting. Surely, if they are proud of Cork's rebel past they should use flags against oppression, not ones that celebrate it.

Personally, as long they continue to wave that flag, I hope they get beaten in every single match.

Snickers Man

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I hope they get beaten in every single match.

Well I'm from D4. I'm with you there.

hatrickpatrick

super_furry wrote: »

Turn off the internet and stop looking for idiots on tumblr and in their own self-selecting community and I simply don't believe that's happening in wider society.

Una Mullally. Louise O'Neill. Bahar Mustafa. The Guardian. The Huffington Post. Buzzfeed. The Irish Times. The Irish Examiner. These are not mere fringe publications, they are mainstream, and their hate speech is tolerated as acceptable by mainstream society in ways which it most certainly would not be if directed against other groups. You don't see how this could cause a minority of troubled individuals to go beyond resentment and towards dangerous radicalisation?

Sure there's the fringe lunatics in universities but they've always been there.

There is absolutely no denying that they've become a thousand times worse. Even some mainstream feminists are now commenting on how American universities have become utterly hostile to young white men, and how this is contributing to an explosion in dangerously resentful and hateful reactionary ideologies.

It's no mistake that the current generation of white nationalists are the first generation to have grown up online.

I agree with that - does this mean that you in fact concur, that a culture which slams and undermines their identity at every opportunity is contributing to their anger issues?

20Cent

How is anyone supposed to have a discussion or a debate with a Nazi. Here is their attitude.

https://t.co/BfPKEIlMiF?amp=1


His father recalled a time when his son joked, “The thing about us fascists is, it’s not that we don’t believe in freedom of speech. You can say whatever you want. We’ll just throw you in an oven,” Tefft recalled.

super_furry

Think it's simple with the confederate flag being flown by Cork fans. All they need to do is ask themselves how a young black player or supporter would feel if they saw that in flying in Croke Park. They don't care or they're trying to make a very twisted point.

hatrickpatrick

Overheal wrote: »

They are both white supremacists whom are very vocally supportive of the Alt-Right. Milo even works for Breitbart, Bannon's flagship, which Bannon himself stated last July was a platform for the Alt-Right.

So yes. Those two are about a semantic label away from being neo-nazis.

Guilt by association alone, then. Can you find any neo-Nazi content in anything Yiannapolos has said? He's a cultural nationalist, sure, but that's not the same as being a white supremacist. He doesn't take issue with minority races, but minority cultures which he views as incompatible with Western values.

I disagree with him on just about everything except his views on free speech, which in my view the world needs a massive dose of at the moment - particularly the mainstream media.

It's a pity the debate to retain statues like those to a general like Robert E. Lee has been seized so completely by the far right. I'd support it, for the reasons others have articulated earlier, we can't go around in a society that airbrushes the past. But I'd rather they all came down rather than any association with those who have used it as a platform to push an agenda based on hate.

The Legend Of Kira

Overheal wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The two people I referred to in that post were Milo + Ann Coulter who had their speaking engagements at Berkley cancelled due to violence, are you seriously saying those two are " nazis " ?

They are both white supremacists whom are very vocally supportive of the Alt-Right. Milo even works for Breitbart, Bannon's flagship, which Bannon himself stated last July was a platform for the Alt-Right.

So yes. Those two are about a semantic label away from being neo-nazis.

Milo a gay guy who has revealed in past interviews has a black boyfriend ,  that makes him some " white suprenacist " alright .

wes

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a pity the debate to retain statues like those to a general like Robert E. Lee has been seized so completely by the far right. I'd support it, for the reasons others have articulated earlier, we can't go around in a society that airbrushes the past. But I'd rather they all came down rather than any association with those who have used it as a platform to push an agenda based on hate.

It's being put in a museum, which I think is a better place for these statues. In a museum people can be better educated on the past

The Legend Of Kira

Well over a year ago  HatrickPatrick posted this thread, the opening post hit the nail on the head about a lot of things regarding why people are turned towards Trump etc .
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057610818

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

The vast majority of confederate monuments were erected in the aftermath of Plassey v Ferguson or during the mid-century civil rights campaign. They're not so much memorials of the war as testaments to bigotry and Jim Crow.

Tony EH

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In my view it's the other way around - check the article I posted a few pages back, the constant drumbeat of "whites / men / white men are the root of all evil and should be ashamed of themselves for things they've never actually done" preceded the rise of the alt-right - and in many journalists' views directly precipitated it.

This may be correct to some degree Patrick, but, I think it's reasonable to conclude that any (even moderately) intelligent whites / men / white men, would come to understand the deeper politics of that so-called alt-right movement very quickly and be abhorred.

Unless they agree with that deeper politics, of course.

A few words out of the likes of Richard Spencer is enough to draw a solid conclusion.

If you lie down with dogs...etc

Danzy

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Well over a year ago  HatrickPatrick posted this thread, the opening post hit the nail on the head about a lot of things regarding why people are turned towards Trump etc .
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057610818

It is a basic rule of democracy that there is only so long that a party or movement can get away without listening to voters till they refuse to listen back.

Add in top of that, that many in the new left are openly contemptuous towards their old base, have zero meas in them, and that applies whether they are genuine assholes or the nicest people around. Makes me wonder what I 'll vote in years to come.

Personally, I think the left is collapsing as a force capable of governing States in the West. There is a class divide, an outlook divide between much of it and its old voter base that is unusual, hence the electoral problems.

Not all certainly but enough to damage the movement as a whole.

The left has changed out of all recognition in the last 25 years. I think it had some sort of nervous breakdown in the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet Union and has never recovered.

If anything the next generation of activists are even more arrogant and out of touch, especially in America, hell, that is even just the ones I often agree with.

That is off topic, a bit, but without the left making the space for this micro movement to ever so slightly less micro, this would not be a story.

Samaris

Well, given the Cork crowd are using the flag to indicate that they are "rebels", it is hardly a far reach to assume that having taken that much meaning from it, they're probably taking the rest. It's a ridiculous notion anyway. What's wrong with the Cork colours?

If they really want a red flag, why are they not using the hammer and sickle? It would be more red at least than the stripey starred one. And they can't be too worried about connotations, all things considered.


It's not bloody hard. Get red flag. Sorted. Maybe even be a little inventive with it and give it a meaning rather than trying to co-opt someone else's flag with its own history.