Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

I believe that Free speech should be absolute. But, when your idea of free speech includes the disgusting things like the above you'll need to accept the consequences readily and I support GoDaddy's action.

Scumbag level opinion.

Completely agree.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

Danzy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

Oh ffs, it is almost making a mockery of what happened in Charlottesville to try to equate the 2.

Remember that not everyone else looks at the world or their local events through a U.S. prism.

Professor Moriarty

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

You know nothing about hurling or Cork.

A Little Pony

one religion is worse than another (or better). Hate is taught and learned. 

Being critical of a religious doctrine and thinking it is a load of absolute nonsense and is a violent ideology which underpins it is not hateful, it's just truth. Go ask multiple intellectuals like Dawkins or Sam Harris. Hate is preaching that white people are better than black people or black people are better than white people.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You know nothing about hurling or Cork.

I'm more of a gaelic football fan, that's true. But I don't see what more there is to know. Cork fans are waving a symbol of hatred at their games and are either too bigoted or too ignorant to stop.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Danzy wrote: »

Oh ffs, it is almost making a mockery of what happened in Charlottesville to try to equate the 2.

Remember that not everyone else looks at the world or their local events through a U.S. prism.

If events in the US don't interest them, then why fly a symbol from the US at games?

red ears

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I note there is planned " free speech rally " in Boston next week .



There is already some people loosely thrown out around labels & calling for political violence next week, these are dark days indeed when its normalised to call for violent opposition to someone expressing an alternative political view .

Incredible that people don't see a problem with antifa and those wearing the hammer and sickle, 100 million dead in the 20th century due to that ideology.

People threatening violence against a free speech rally. Simply because they decide to label them as they see fit and then violently attack them. We live in dangerous times. Antifa are clearly the fascists of the 21st century.

Tony EH

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

If events in the US don't interest them, then why fly a symbol from the US at games?

The Confederate battle flag is a symbol for numerous things to different people.

For the "Rebel County", it's thus.

Don't read too much into it.

testaccount123

Tony EH wrote: »

The Confederate battle flag is a symbol for numerous things to different people.

For the "Rebel County", it's thus.

Don't read too much into it.

This is ridiculous. Should they be allowed fly Nazi flags too? Has red and white on it sure.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Sligo will be flying ISIS flags next year then.

Tony EH

testaccount123 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. Should they be allowed fly Nazi flags too? Has red and white on it sure.

If you're trying to conflate the stars and bars with the Hakenkreuz, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Danzy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Sligo will be flying ISIS flags next year then.

I saw a red and white flag one summer with a picture of Mao on it. I took it for granted that the person who had it does not intend or hope to murder 80 million Chinese people.

I have seen USSR flags (rare), Che flags etc, an Ivory coast flag.

Your U.S. centric world view is not followed by others, so don't project your own thoughts on to others.



Nothing would surprise me about Sligo fans though, they would be doing it with clear intent.

A Little Pony

Tony EH wrote: »

Samaris wrote: »

Yes, sometimes it should be, when symbols of its power are left to become symbols of a new generation with the same ideals as the old one. That is why the statues of dictators are famously toppled when the regime falls. It is a symbol of a new dawn without the evils of the past.

It should not be forgotten, quite, but there is a clear line between remembering the past and idolising it.

Personally, I think the statute should remain, although my politics would be different from those rallying around it and those of a certain mindset on this thread who most are familiar with. I find it particularly sad that it's a kicking off point for two groups of political idealogues.

When you start whitewashing the historical record, nobody wins.

Plus, and this is the important part, who gets to be the arbiter of what statutes stand and which ones fall? And what should be the meter for that arbitration?

There are statues to Arthur Harris and Winston Churchill in Britain, one of whom murdered hundreds of thousands while in charge of Bomber Command and the other who had very dubious views on races oither than his own. Should they be toppled? There's a monument to the extermination of Dacia standing in Trajan's forum in Rome. Should we knock that down?

Where does one draw the ine and who gets to draw that line?

Also, Lee wasn't a dictator. He was one of the greatest military leaders of the time and recognised as such by both sides. He, no doubt, held some views we would consider awful today. But, he was very much a product of his time and his views would have been shared by plenty of his enemies as aswell.

Statues act as reminders. They don't have to be an idolisation or a celebration and sometimes it's good for a nation to reminded of its dubious past as to not forget it, in favour of some happy clappy myth. Something which far too many Americans, in particular, are want to do.

I pretty much agree with this. Lee after the war was only interested in reconciliation between North and South. He was a great general, along with Jackson. I have to say if I saw people trying to take down statues here in NI I would be very much against it. 

Where do you stop with it all? Custer has statues, he was involved in killing Native Indians, Sherman has statues, absolutely HATED Native Indians. Look what he did to the Bison which the Native Indians relied on, told them to submit and forced them onto reservations. Why aren't people protesting against his statues?

InTheTrees

red ears wrote: »

People threatening violence against a free speech rally. Simply because they decide to label them as they see fit and then violently attack them.

I dont understand why you have a problem with people expressing their opposition to nazi hate speech.

If a group wants to goosestep through your town carrying nazi flags and idolising hitler then why shouldn't people come out against such stuff? I dont believe "antifa" is organising any of their own marches, they only appear when the nazi's come out with their flags and hate speech.

StringerBell

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Photo 1 in that meme, Antifa rioted in the streets + destroyed property to prevent free speech event with Milo, Photo 2 they violently attacked a guy for the thoughtcrime of wearing a Trump t shirt , photo 3 they attacked a guy who wanted to go to the Milo event to hear him speak, photo 4 they attacked an old age pensioner at a pro Trump rally .

Doesn't relate in any way to the meme being factually incorrect though, and as such, unhelpful. It takes away from your argument when you use things like that to illustrate a point you are making. The point may have some merit but it gets lost when associated with something plainly incorrect.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Tony EH wrote: »

If you're trying to conflate the stars and bars with the Hakenkreuz, you're barking up the wrong tree.

The flag Cork fans fly isn't the stars and bars, it's the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. The stars and bars was the official confederate flag.

Tony EH

You know what I mean.

Anyway, this line discussion is nonsense.

wes

Tony EH wrote: »

If you're trying to conflate the stars and bars with the Hakenkreuz, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Your right there is no comparison.

The Swastika is a symbol that has been by multiple ancient cultures, including the worlds 3rd largest Religion, Hinduism. If you use one outside the sub continent, people will associate it with Nazism.

The confederate flag (battle flag), as per the name, was used by traitors to the US, who were pro-slavery. It has since been used by white supremacist, and idiots who choose to ignore what it represents. Its a lot like idiots with Che Guevara t-shirts if you ask me.

It seems to me that one symbol has a far, far longer history, and is still used by the worlds 3rd largest religion, and the other has a far shorter history and is still largely used for that purpose today. So yeah no comparison between the 2.

Danzy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

The flag Cork fans fly isn't the stars and bars, it's the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. The stars and bars was the official confederate flag.

No, it is whatever one the fellow hawking it on the Street has for sale that day.

BillyBobBS

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Meanwhile, hours after far-right neo-confederates kill a woman in the US, Cork hurling fans wave their flag in Croke Park. They should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

:pac: Your's reaching now.

Danzy

BillyBobBS wrote: »

:pac: Your's reaching now.

Cork is a bit like Germany these days though.

Their campaign starts out strong but crashes out in a stunning defeat.

He has to have his fun too.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Danzy wrote: »

No, it is whatever one the fellow hawking it on the Street has for sale that day.

They cannot claim ignorance after the sheer number of reports on this, going all the way back to 2004 http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/rebels-up-in-arms-over-racist-flag-25900831.html. Continuing to buy it and wave it is disgusting.

Danzy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

They cannot claim ignorance after the sheer number of reports on this, going all the way back to 2004 http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/rebels-up-in-arms-over-racist-flag-25900831.html. Continuing to buy it and wave it is disgusting.

Maybe it is time to come from behind the keyboard, go to the next Cork match and notify people what is acceptable or not.

I'm being serious on that, if it is a serious concern for, **** or get off the pot and do something rather than preach on it.

red ears

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont understand why you have a problem with people expressing their opposition to nazi hate speech.

If a group wants to goosestep through your town carrying nazi flags and idolising hitler then why shouldn't people come out against such stuff? I dont believe "antifa" is organising any of their own marches, they only appear when the nazi's come out with their flags and hate speech.

The Boston speakers are not Nazi's. This is the problem. You just decided to label them Nazi's.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe it is time to come from behind the keyboard, go to the next Cork match and notify people what is acceptable or not.

I'm being serious on that, if it is a serious concern for, **** or get off the pot and do something rather than preach on it.

If I was at a Mayo-Cork game and I saw someone with it, I'd tell them. Sadly, I don't get to many games these days, living abroad and all. Anyway, Cork people don't seem to show up to football matches in any great numbers.

Your logic is pretty faulty though. They already know it's wrong. I don't need to tell them. They're just scumbags who revel in being controversey or edgy and therefore want to keep flying their disgusting flags.

InTheTrees

red ears wrote: »

The Boston speakers are not Nazi's. This is the problem. You just decided to label them Nazi's.

Then they should leave their nazi regalia at home then.

The Legend Of Kira

Danzy wrote: »

freedominacup wrote: »

You probably consider yourself to have a liberal outlook.

The problems with No Platforming is it helps the other side grow and secondly the people usually behind it are often fans of ideologies and movements that have killed as many as the other side have, in some cases more, though not as clinically brutal.

Who could argue against No Platforming Communists, Maoists, Stalinists, Trots etc, the same logic applies, over a 100 million starved or shot in 30 years in just 2 countries alone. I don't support it though.

Another one is that the people who are doing it tend to be very righteous and absolutist in their thinking, and this is a real problem in America today, the list of people who are deemed fascist or racist etc is growing by the day and often for the most innocuous of reasons.

It is a powerful tool but it is used and abused by people who have more in common with John McQuaid than any one else.

One set of authoritarian control freaks over another and they both want conformity to their beliefs.

" Another one is that the people who are doing it tend to be very righteous and absolutist in their thinking, and this is a real problem in America today, the list of people who are deemed fascist or racist etc is growing by the day and often for the most innocuous of reasons.  " 

Its not just in America its happening in quite a few countries people crying " racist " or " fascist " making a scene over next to nothing.

( Example 1 )

A college student gets harassed for the crime of having a dreadlocked hairstyle gets accused of " cultural appropriation " .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDlQ4H0Kdg8

( Example 2 ) This time last year Ellen Degeneres gets called " racist " for this meme she posted online .

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37107541

( Example 3 ) Even people of the Jewish faith get labeled as " nazi " these days by the left.



" [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The left throw the term Nazi around so often that it's starting to lose its meaning " + 1 .[/font]

Danzy

A great description of what happened from another site.

"we have a violent clash between supporters of the two most hated and least successful ideologies in history in a country that will never adopt either and all we can do is argue about who is worse."

I'm off.

The Legend Of Kira

A Little Pony wrote: »

one religion is worse than another (or better). Hate is taught and learned. 

Being critical of a religious doctrine and thinking it is a load of absolute nonsense and is a violent ideology which underpins it is not hateful, it's just truth. Go ask multiple intellectuals like Dawkins or Sam Harris. Hate is preaching that white people are better than black people or black people are better than white people.

+ 1 , 
[font=Georgia, serif] Being critical of a religion is not the same thing as inciting violence against a miniorty group ; from time to time some groups protest against Scientology most political activists don’t care about it; but if someone dares to publicly say something negative about Islam straight away right off the bat there is cries of racism and fascism etc but public protests against Scientology get a free pass without being labelled all those names ; I see that as ironic .[/font]