Dublin GAA Discussion Thread - Capital Punishment

DoctaDee

I'll be interested to see whether Sean McMahon makes the jump to senior. Another one of the Raheny production line, would probably need a few years to toughen up in the natural position of full back, and unlikely to break through in the half backs at the present time.

Aaron Byrne is another with huge potential, was surprised he didn't see any representative football this year after his standout last year with the 21"s

muddle84

Fann Linn wrote: »

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think you are looking for answers where they dont exist.

Mayo competing with Dublin was based on Mayo having players as good as the Dubs.

There is no one on the Tyrone team that can compare with Lee Keegan, Andy Moran, Keith Higgins, the O'Sheas.

Agreed. But if Mayo players are and can be as good as the Dubs, it calls into question all those other, other threads which cry foul over Dublin's dominance and the need for them to be divided into 2, 4, 6 or 8 or whatever other handicap some people are calling for.

Mayo (in 2016 and 2017 anyway, not 2018) have 15 players that could beat Dublin and very nearly did. The big difference was the bench. We do not have the bench to bring on that Dublin do to finish out the game. 
But with regard to the splitting Dublin argument, I think it gets overlooked how great a manager Jim Gavin is. The splitting argument completely negates how much of the dominance is down to Gavin. Yes there seems to be a conveyor belt of players with 2 that can impact a final every year in their first year. But that's only happening because of the environment that Gavin has created. If Gilroy had stayed would Dublin be dominating the way they are now?

PARlance

muddle84 wrote: »

Mayo (in 2016 and 2017 anyway, not 2018) have 15 players that could beat Dublin and very nearly did. The big difference was the bench. We do not have the bench to bring on that Dublin do to finish out the game. 
But with regard to the splitting Dublin argument, I think it gets overlooked how great a manager Jim Gavin is. The splitting argument completely negates how much of the dominance is down to Gavin. Yes there seems to be a conveyor belt of players with 2 that can impact a final every year in their first year. But that's only happening because of the environment that Gavin has created. If Gilroy had stayed would Dublin be dominating the way they are now?

Had a reply typed up earlier, almost word for word. The environment that has been created is the star. Numbers / competition certainly is a key factor... but it's Gavin's machine.

corny

muddle84 wrote: »

He seemed to be the only player that actually wanted to beat the dubs on the pitch last year though. This year he was anonymous though. Maybe he is overated or maybe his marker on Sunday isn't getting enough credit?

5 out of the 6 Dublin attackers would waltz by him in space though. He's just wrong for an open game against very mobile attackers. Tbh i think he comes by praise a little easy. Always felt it.

muddle84 wrote: »

But with regard to the splitting Dublin argument, I think it gets overlooked how great a manager Jim Gavin is. The splitting argument completely negates how much of the dominance is down to Gavin. Yes there seems to be a conveyor belt of players with 2 that can impact a final every year in their first year. But that's only happening because of the environment that Gavin has created. If Gilroy had stayed would Dublin be dominating the way they are now?

Hard to answer obviously but I do think the crop of players that Gilroy brought through owe him everything. Gavin doesn't have a team if Gilroy doesn't start it imo. Beating Kerry in 11 defined them as players; so much so that you'll hear Gavin talk about the player lead environment and how easy it is to actually manage them. You've hit Gavins major strength on the head though. Each year he brings through a player and an established name gets pushed out. That takes balls, especially when the young player invariably finds it tough in the latter stages of the championship. He still sticks by them and they grow as a result. Murchan did nothing in the final but neither did Mannion and McCaffrey in 2013. Its long term thinking and you don't always see it other counties.

muddle84

corny wrote: »

muddle84 wrote: »

He seemed to be the only player that actually wanted to beat the dubs on the pitch last year though. This year he was anonymous though. Maybe he is overated or maybe his marker on Sunday isn't getting enough credit?

5 out of the 6 Dublin attackers would waltz by him in space though. He's just wrong for an open game against very mobile attackers. Tbh i think he comes by praise a little easy. Always felt it.

muddle84 wrote: »

But with regard to the splitting Dublin argument, I think it gets overlooked how great a manager Jim Gavin is. The splitting argument completely negates how much of the dominance is down to Gavin. Yes there seems to be a conveyor belt of players with 2 that can impact a final every year in their first year. But that's only happening because of the environment that Gavin has created. If Gilroy had stayed would Dublin be dominating the way they are now?

Hard to answer obviously but I do think the crop of players that Gilroy brought through owe him everything. Gavin doesn't have a team if Gilroy doesn't start it imo. Beating Kerry in 11 defined them as players; so much so that you'll hear Gavin talk about the player lead environment and how easy it is to actually manage them. You've hit Gavins major strength on the head though. Each year he brings through a player and an established name gets pushed out. That takes balls, especially when the young player invariably finds it tough in the latter stages of the championship. He still sticks by them and they grow as a result. Murchan did nothing in the final but neither did Mannion and McCaffrey in 2013. Its long term thinking and you don't always see it other counties.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to diminish what Gilroy done and acheived in anyway at all. He ended the Dublin famine against a very different Kerry team to whats there now. I also agree that Gilroy had a big part to play in whats there now, giving Gavin a very solid foundation to begin building on. So many good things coming together at the right time, Kluxton and that generation of players, Gilroy, the 2011 minor team and then Gavin taking all of that to the next level. 
I don't think Gavin will be fully appreciated until he is gone. Hopefully he decides he is done sooner rather than later too ;). Its time Round Towers offered him the big job!

Bonniedog

Gilroy's huge contribution was massive cultural change.

He valued hard graft and honesty, epitomised by likes of Ger and MDM and others over some of those who he dropped like hot snots.

He also got rid of all the showboating that had begun to creep in - walking to the Hill was embarrassing crap, as was the circus before the 2006 semi final.

For that reason alone he has earned his place as part of the great era. Hopefully he can do the same with the hurlers.

robbiezero

corny wrote: »

There's a far simpler explanation....he's not that good. He'd struggle in every game against Dublin because of his lack of mobility. They walked around him on several occasions.

Anyway all year i've been scratching my head at the praise he's been getting.

He has had a poor year. Legs look to be gone. Ineffective v Dubs in Omagh and again on Sunday.
Thought he had a great game v Dublin last year. The only Tyrone player who had a cut at the Dubs.

Jimmy Two Times

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Raheny have no bench though, that is thier main problem, I thought the group system would suit them better, but they still managed to throw away games, even though they had lots of possession, silly mistakes.

Think this is a bit harsh.Not sure which games they" threw away ".

First year of the new system and Raheny end up in a group with Crokes, Boden and Plunketts.

Beat Plunketts and gave a very strong Boden a good game. Lost by 6 but owned the ball for the last ten minutes and had some good goal chances at the end.

Crash Bang Wall

Bonniedog wrote: »

As others have said, Mayo have been only team to seriously come close to beating Dublin since 2013. Kerry took handsome leads in 2013 and 2016 but folded eventually in same manner as Tyrone on Sunday.

Interesting nerdlinger fact is that Mayo are only team to have shaded Dublin in at least two big games on possession. That was based on their aggression and discipline. Not sure if they can attain those heights again. If Jimmy gets the gig, they may forget about it.

Couldnt fully agree with that to be fair.....I heard an explaination of the gameplan he was talking about when defending against the Dubs, and it wasnt the 15 men behind the ball that the media (lazily) protrayed it as....it was actually 11 defending the scoring zone, forcing Dublin to retreat and recycle the ball which they do comfortably......Part B of the plan was to have a line of 4 on the half way line to disrupt the easy recycling, and pressure the Dubs from both sides.

It may not work, and it would defintely need more than 3 weeks to perfect, but its certainly something different, and something that hasnt been seen before, and would force the Dubs and Gavin to think on their feet, rather than revert to a predetermined plan to deal with the opposition

Crash Bang Wall

blanch152 wrote: »

I haven't seen any analyst agree with you.

All said that Cavanagh should have seen black, and most that Harte should have got a red.

Both incidents were before half-time. It wasn't both sides, it was Tyrone.

Don't worry, Dublin are well used to it. Monaghan, Galway, Donegal etc. try it all the time. We don't let it bother us, we just get up and play football and win the game.

To be fair, the analysts dont really analyse much, a controversial moment, a good score or 2. Teams however do, and in this day and age, pretty much every team breaks rules they think they can get away with it. You need to be at games to see what goes on off the ball.....and every team does it, the difference is, the better teams are more subtle. The obvious stuff at the w/e mainly involved Tyrone.....Cavanagh and Harte being the main ones, but Cooper was at it on Bradley. when you get 13/14/15 men behind the ball and big open gaps are created when teams are marking zonally, you would be very naive to think that there is no blocking off going on somewhere

blanch152

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Couldnt fully agree with that to be fair.....I heard an explaination of the gameplan he was talking about when defending against the Dubs, and it wasnt the 15 men behind the ball that the media (lazily) protrayed it as....it was actually 11 defending the scoring zone, forcing Dublin to retreat and recycle the ball which they do comfortably......Part B of the plan was to have a line of 4 on the half way line to disrupt the easy recycling, and pressure the Dubs from both sides.

It may not work, and it would defintely need more than 3 weeks to perfect, but its certainly something different, and something that hasnt been seen before, and would force the Dubs and Gavin to think on their feet, rather than revert to a predetermined plan to deal with the opposition

It might work in a provincial venue, but probably not on a warm day in Croke Park.

With only 11 inside, accurate kickpassing, which several Dubs are excellent at, would create opportunities. O'Gara, off the bench, is made for a long-ball counter to it.

FrancieBrady

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

To be fair, the analysts dont really analyse much, a controversial moment, a good score or 2. Teams however do, and in this day and age, pretty much every team breaks rules they think they can get away with it. You need to be at games to see what goes on off the ball.....and every team does it, the difference is, the better teams are more subtle. The obvious stuff at the w/e mainly involved Tyrone.....Cavanagh and Harte being the main ones, but Cooper was at it on Bradley. when you get 13/14/15 men behind the ball and big open gaps are created when teams are marking zonally, you would be very naive to think that there is no blocking off going on somewhere

In fairness to Cavanagh, he was being dealt with from the moment he went into full forward. And you could see it on the telly if you know what goes on. The catch by Howard at the end was a classic example of what you say about some teams being better at it than others.
Cavanagh got double teamed, Philly impeded him, keeping him on the ground allowing Howard to leap in and take the ball. Goes on all the time and not just by Dublin. Kieran Hughes also suffered from it in the Tyrone game.
RTE raved about the catch but ignored what Philly did. But he gave away a penalty doing it earlier so at least Tyrone got something.

Crash Bang Wall

blanch152 wrote: »

It might work in a provincial venue, but probably not on a warm day in Croke Park.

With only 11 inside, accurate kickpassing, which several Dubs are excellent at, would create opportunities. O'Gara, off the bench, is made for a long-ball counter to it.

Didnt say it would work, i just reckoned it was something that the Dubs wouldnt have seen before.

And with the pressure from both sides, they would not have the time and space that they are used to, to make those passes. Add in less numbers in a congested area, and the ref is also more likely to see some of the subtle blocking off the ball

Frankly, Im not sure it would have, but in order for any team to beat the Dubs, they need to come up with a plan that they hadnt seen before

corny

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In fairness to Cavanagh, he was being dealt with from the moment he went into full forward. And you could see it on the telly if you know what goes on. The catch by Howard at the end was a classic example of what you say about some teams being better at it than others.
Cavanagh got double teamed, Philly impeded him, keeping him on the ground allowing Howard to leap in and take the ball. Goes on all the time and not just by Dublin. Kieran Hughes also suffered from it in the Tyrone game.
RTE raved about the catch but ignored what Philly did. But he gave away a penalty doing it earlier so at least Tyrone got something.

I never really give credence to anything you say but just a point of order. McMahon wasn't near Cavanagh. McCarthy had taken that up after the penalty. You haven't a clue what happened.

FrancieBrady

corny wrote: »

I never really give credence to anything you say but just a point of order. McMahon wasn't near Cavanagh. McCarthy had taken that up after the penalty. You haven't a clue what happened.

Sorry, Ok McCarthy did the impedeing. Does it really matter?

Slattsy

Obsessed or wha. Kinda weird.

ArielAtom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, Ok McCarthy did the impedeing. Does it really matter?

Would you like me to take that shovel off ya😉

Grandeeod

Bonniedog wrote: »

Gilroy's huge contribution was massive cultural change.

He valued hard graft and honesty, epitomised by likes of Ger and MDM and others over some of those who he dropped like hot snots.

He also got rid of all the showboating that had begun to creep in - walking to the Hill was embarrassing crap, as was the circus before the 2006 semi final.

For that reason alone he has earned his place as part of the great era. Hopefully he can do the same with the hurlers.

I'd agree completely. Myself and a few friends got together last week to watch some games starting with the 2001 season. Its interesting watching Dublin under Carr, Lyons, Pillar and then Gilroy. He didn't just remove the stupid show boating, he removed that bolloxology of uncalled for tough guy stuff. How can a player, especially an underdog player (and Dublin were underdogs in a lot of big games back then) focus completely on the job in hand if its mixed in with ego, show boating, hype and clobbering into an opposition sub as he comes on, just to let him know you are there. All that disappeared under Gilroy and Gavin. And we are where we are now.

Bonniedog

Noticeable on Sunday that none of the Dublin players including those obviously targeted were reacting verbally to the no doubt usual charm offensive from the Tyrone boys. That is the best response to attempts to drag them into the gutter.


Heard story about the Gooch a good few years back when he was getting ribbing on arrival home about a relatively quiet game he had had against a certain team. He pulled up tee shirt to reveal a patch work of bruises bordering on cuts. Had also gotten non stop verbals in ear from start to finish about recently deceased family member.

FrancieBrady

Slattsy wrote: »

Obsessed or wha. Kinda weird.

Are the people claiming that Tyrone did all the off ball stuff not a little weird?

In the face of Dublin players actually being sanctioned for it?

'Must remember Francie, Dublin are smiling, charming boy scouts who would never engage in the black arts'.

Slattsy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are the people claiming that Tyrone did all the off ball stuff not a little weird?

In the face of Dublin players actually being sanctioned for it?

'Must remember Francie, Dublin are smiling, charming boy scouts who would never engage in the black arts'.

Ah Franny, you're not even a good WUM, you're a solid 5/10, consistent though, i'll give you that.

I'd be worried about your obsession with us though, its very weird. You're a bit of a laughing stock around here lately.
But we'll take it as a compliment, that we bring out the bitters each time we win, and sure if nothing else its pretty funny to read, so keep it at

We'll all look forward to your observations next year when Dublin arent playing, and the level of detail you go to to point out anything you feel is untoward.
Oh wait. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Slattsy wrote: »

Ah Franny, you're not even a good WUM, you're a solid 5/10, consistent though, i'll give you that.

I'd be worried about your obsession with us though, its very weird. You're a bit of a laughing stock around here lately.
But we'll take it as a compliment, that we bring out the bitters each time we win, and sure if nothing else its pretty funny to read, so keep it at

We'll all look forward to your observations next year when Dublin arent playing, and the level of detail you go to to point out anything you feel is untoward.
Oh wait. :rolleyes:

Well as stock answers go, that was a great effort.

Bitter - check
Wum - check
Laughing stock - check
Come back next year - check

And don't deal with the observation, which was all it was. That it doesn't chime with the 'we are the GOAT boys own stuff' is just because it is based on what is actually there to be seen.

By all means chat to those who only saw boy scouts getting mauled by the rough kids.

Slattsy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well as stock answers go, that was a great effort.

Bitter - check
Wum - check
Laughing stock - check
Come back next year - check

And don't deal with the observation, which was all it was. That it doesn't chime with the 'we are the GOAT boys own stuff' is just because it is based on what is actually there to be seen.

By all means chat to those who only saw boy scouts getting mauled by the rough kids.

And as i touched on, looking forward to reading your passionate observations when Dublin are not playing

Edgware

Bonniedog wrote: »

Gilroy's huge contribution was massive cultural change.

He valued hard graft and honesty, epitomised by likes of Ger and MDM and others over some of those who he dropped like hot snots.

He also got rid of all the showboating that had begun to creep in - walking to the Hill was embarrassing crap, as was the circus before the 2006 semi final.

For that reason alone he has earned his place as part of the great era. Hopefully he can do the same with the hurlers.

Gilroy removed the Under 14 attitude of certain players who thought that all the should go through them. The hurlers put up a good show against Kilkenny and Wexford so hopefully after the Winter they will show more improvement

Grandeeod

Edgware wrote: »

Gilroy removed the Under 14 attitude of certain players who thought that all the should go through them. The hurlers put up a good show against Kilkenny and Wexford so hopefully after the Winter they will show more improvement

Gilroy has a different job to do with the hurlers than the football team and I have no doubt he will do it. But if he wins an AI final with them, it will be the deathknell of hurling.:D

Bonniedog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are the people claiming that Tyrone did all the off ball stuff not a little weird?

In the face of Dublin players actually being sanctioned for it?

'Must remember Francie, Dublin are smiling, charming boy scouts who would never engage in the black arts'.

You have Stockholm Syndrome Francie.

How many times have Monaghan been bullied and otherwise done out of games by your neighbours?

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

You have Stockholm Syndrome Francie.

How many times have Monaghan been bullied and otherwise done out of games by your neighbours?

Several times, and we have done some bullying ourselves. Like all teams except the beatific boy scouts.

I didn't see the post at the time and didn't respond to it, but one Dub poster here insisted that I had to admit they were the GOAT before he would discuss the topic. And I have Stockholm Syndrome???
All I am doing is giving a bit of balance to the above ****e about a game that happened 2 days ago. The main game of the calendar.

corny

Bonniedog wrote: »

Noticeable on Sunday that none of the Dublin players including those obviously targeted were reacting verbally to the no doubt usual charm offensive from the Tyrone boys. That is the best response to attempts to drag them into the gutter.


Heard story about the Gooch a good few years back when he was getting ribbing on arrival home about a relatively quiet game he had had against a certain team. He pulled up tee shirt to reveal a patch work of bruises bordering on cuts. Had also gotten non stop verbals in ear from start to finish about recently deceased family member.

Honest question....do you think the Dublin defenders are above that sort of behaviour?

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Several times, and we have done some bullying ourselves. Like all teams except the beatific boy scouts.

I didn't see the post at the time and didn't respond to it, but one Dub poster here insisted that I had to admit they were the GOAT before he would discuss the topic. And I have Stockholm Syndrome???
All I am doing is giving a bit of balance to the above ****e about a game that happened 2 days ago. The main game of the calendar.

Nobody said this dublin team are boy scouts only yourself.
Most Dubs are proud of the steel of Cooper and Philly et al as Dublin were soft touches for so many years.
You seem dying to find fault with this Dublin team, and if you can't you will probably move on to finding fault thier wives and girlfriends.

It is verging on a delusional disorder (jealously in your case)

https://healthresearchfunding.org/3-delusional-jealousy-disorder-symptoms/

Obsessing about the success of the Dublin team and wishing your county are as good as these greats?
If I were you I would be just glad I was alive to witness this fantastic side.
When Dublin eventually lose I think your condition should improve.
Good luck with it.
Oh and up the Dubs!

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Nobody said this dublin team are boy scouts only yourself.
Most Dubs are proud of the steel of Cooper and Philly et al as Dublin were soft touches for so many years.
You seem dying to find fault with this Dublin team, and if you can't you will probably move on to finding fault thier wives and girlfriends.

It is verging on a delusional disorder (jealously in your case)

https://healthresearchfunding.org/3-delusional-jealousy-disorder-symptoms/

Obsessing about the success of the Dublin team and wishing your county are as good as these greats?
If I were you I would be just glad I was alive to witness this fantastic side.
When Dublin eventually lose I think your condition should improve.
Good luck with it.
Oh and up the Dubs!

There are a few who have said it 'was all Tyrone' on Sunday and when it was pointed out that Dublin lost a player, had a penalty awarded against etc they went silent on it. Rock hit a Tyrone player in the chest after scoring a point in the classic kind of wind up stuff all players engage in these days.
Some of you guys need to get over it.

BTW I think I enjoy any game Dublin are playing in. They are the top team in the country, how would you not enjoy them being challenged?