Dublin GAA Discussion Thread - Capital Punishment

willowthewisp

blanch152 wrote: »

Except it hasn't continued consistently year after year and is now less than it was.

True it is now less than it was, but substantially more than any other county is getting.

gormdubhgorm

willowthewisp wrote: »

True it is now less than it was, but substantially more than any other county is getting.

The problem is the GAA/Bertie/DCB made too good a job of 'saving Dublin GAA'.
If Dublin GAA went on it's @rse the rest of the GAA was bansjaxed.

The footballers started to realise thier potential with a mixture of superb planning and structures and got thier act together.
Even the Dublin hurlers improved dramatically.

I think in 10 years time there should by right, be two Dublin football teams, it makes sense for the welfare of the GAA and Dublin in the future.
Two different teams neither of which would be 'Dublin' anymore.
It would take another 10/15 years to build up 'brand' of those teams.
It would be the case of 10/15 years of pain and then untold lifetimes of gain for the GAA.

I know there will be some diehards who would never attend a Dublin game again, but there will also be others drawn to the novelty of it.
The main issue to it would be the necessity of building of TWO 25k/30k stadiums (could be shared with soccer?) one on the Northside and one the Southside. With two separate county boards required.
That will take a lot of money initially (land, construction, infrastructural organisation.)

Are the rest of the GAA willing to forgo really massive amounts of money for a decade so that could happen????
I doubt it.

Would the DCB be willing to divide itself in two?
I doubt it.

salmocab

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The problem is the GAA/Bertie/DCB made too good a job of 'saving Dublin GAA'.
If Dublin GAA went on it's @rse the rest of the GAA was bansjaxed.

The footballers started to realise thier potential with a mixture of superb planning and structures and got thier act together.
Even the Dublin hurlers improved dramatically.

I think in 10 years time there should by right, be two Dublin football teams, it makes sense for the welfare of the GAA and Dublin in the future.
Two different teams neither of which would be 'Dublin' anymore.
It would take another 10/15 years to build up 'brand' of those teams.
It would be the case of 10/15 years of pain and then untold lifetimes of gain for the GAA.

I know there will be some diehards who would never attend a Dublin game again, but there will also be others drawn to the novelty of it.
The main issue to it would be the necessity of building of TWO 25k/30k stadiums (could be shared with soccer?) one on the Northside and one the Southside. With two separate county boards required.
That will take a lot of money initially (land, construction, infrastructural organisation.)

Are the rest of the GAA willing to forgo really massive amounts of money for a decade so that could happen????
I doubt it.

Would the DCB be willing to divide itself in two?
I doubt it.

Splitting Dublin creates less money to go around and denies people from Dublin the chance to play for their county.

gormdubhgorm

salmocab wrote: »

Splitting Dublin creates less money to go around and denies people from Dublin the chance to play for their county.

It would do the exact opposite.
Two teams means that there will be two counties therefore more places to play for.
Having two teams would create a rivalary over time between the two new counties.
The counties as they stand were British creations (lines on a map) , they do not have to remain the same for eternity.
People from Dublin would be playing for thier county Dublin North v Dublin South.
Imagine that as a Leinster football final. Full house on it's own, neutrals would flock to it.

salmocab

People would lose interest unbelievabley quick in this, without a county team to look up to the kids playing would be much more likely to play different sports. A few years later people would be calling for Dublin to be reunited.
What happens to the hurlers that are hardly destroying all comers? Split them too or even the minor footballers.
It’s a nonsense plan that people base on nothing more than current success, Kerry have won 5 minors on the bounce and will surely be winning a few All Ireland’s over the next decade, that suggests to me that it’s them that got their sh1t together and planned for the future.

gormdubhgorm

salmocab wrote: »

People would lose interest unbelievabley quick in this, without a county team to look up to the kids playing would be much more likely to play different sports. A few years later people would be calling for Dublin to be reunited.
What happens to the hurlers that are hardly destroying all comers? Split them too or even the minor footballers.
It’s a nonsense plan that people base on nothing more than current success, Kerry have won 5 minors on the bounce and will surely be winning a few All Ireland’s over the next decade, that suggests to me that it’s them that got their sh1t together and planned for the future.

People would not lose interest things have to change, as Ireland changes.
If there were two Dublin football teams over time an identity and loyalty to those teams would be built up.

Kids will not know any different in time, and dream to play for Dublin North or Dublin South.
As regards the Dublin hurlers the support base/player base is not there to have two teams at the moment.
In 100 years time there will probably be two Dublin hurling teams or the GAA could be pro who knows?
Things change, things move on even though the GAA move at a slow pace.
It is almost an inevitably that these things will happen sometime in future.
The only question is when.
Meanwhile let's all look forward to Dublin v Carlow/Louth/Westmeath etc etc in the Leinster 'Championship' next summer- really sets the pulse racing all the neutrals will be flocking to that.

salmocab

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

People would not lose interest things have to change as Ireland changes.
If there were two Dublin football teams over time an identity and loyalty to those teams would be built up.

Kids will not know any different in time, and dream to play for Dublin North or Dublin South.
As regards the Dublin hurlers the support base/player base is not there to have two teams at the moment.
In 100 years time there will probably be two Dublin hurling teams or the GAA could be pro who knows?
Things change, things move on even though the GAA move at a slow pace.
It is almost an inevitably that these things will happen sometime in future.
The only question is when.
Meanwhile let's all look forward to Dublin v Carlow/Louth/Westmeath etc etc in the Leinster 'Championship' next summer- really sets the pulse racing all the neutrals will be flocking to that.

So three county boards instead of one?
Do you think players will want to play for the Laois/West Meath team? Course they won’t as it means nothing to them. Just like being from South Dublin means nothing to me. Something needs to be done to improve other counties to make them better but it’s a ridiculous idea that the way to improve things is to weaken the strongest instead of bringing the others up.

gormdubhgorm

salmocab wrote: »

So three county boards instead of one?
Do you think players will want to play for the Laois/West Meath team? Course they won’t as it means nothing to them. Just like being from South Dublin means nothing to me. Something needs to be done to improve other counties to make them better but it’s a ridiculous idea that the way to improve things is to weaken the strongest instead of bringing the others up.

Yes three county boards.
One with the sole focus on hurling for Dublin extra funding from HQ (They get Parnell Park)
One for the Northside football. (25k stadium shared with soccer)
One for the Southside football. (25k stadium shared with soccer)
Over time being from North and South Dublin would mean more to the fans.
As the American's call it the franchise would have to be built up over time.
You are just thinking of it from a current standpoint - there only ever was Dublin.

There was never a Fingal development team for hurling and that was created.
Nobody died.
Things can change.
If there were two Dublin teams there would be a bit of flux/pain to start with but over-time things will settle.
Are you seriously telling me that Dublin would not be able to have two fully functioning County Boards for football with competitive teams?
Of course they would easily, it would just take time to get people used to it and build up the rivalry.
It would make Dublin as whole stronger in time and make the GAA stronger overall.

salmocab

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes three county boards.
One with the sole focus on hurling for Dublin extra funding from HQ (They get Parnell Park)
One for the Northside football. (25k stadium shared with soccer)
One for the Southside football. (25k stadium shared with soccer)
Over time being from North and South Dublin would mean more to the fans.
As the American's call it the franchise would have to be built up over time.
You are just thinking of it from a current standpoint - there only ever was Dublin.

There was never a Fingal development team for hurling and that was created.
Nobody died.
Things can change.
If there were two Dublin teams there would be a bit of flux/pain to start with but over-time things will settle.
Are you seriously telling me that Dublin would not be able to have two fully functioning County Boards for football with competitive teams?
Of course they would easily, it would just take time to get people used to it and build up the rivalry.

Look the time it would take to build up what you want would just kill GAA in the capital, it would hoover up more money than it does at the moment and would take decades to show return. Other Counties aren’t going to be happy with less money coming into GAA and more of the less money going to the extra county boards to run more teams and build 2 fantasy stadiums. I’m not against sorting out the current issues somehow but don’t believe for a second that spending more money from a smaller pot on 3 different Dublins is going to fix it.

coolisin

Sorry to but to have the hurlers separate to the footballers is stupid.
you’ll have supporters split all over the place nope you either destroy Dublin GAA or you leave it alone.
But this agenda of destroying the football only as the hurlers haven’t upset anyone yet logic is daft.

gormdubhgorm

coolisin wrote: »

Sorry to but to have the hurlers separate to the footballers is stupid.
you’ll have supporters split all over the place nope you either destroy Dublin GAA or you leave it alone.
But this agenda of destroying the football only as the hurlers haven’t upset anyone yet logic is daft.

It would not be destroying football it is being more practical.
You have to break a few eggs to make a lovely scrambled egg.
It is not just because Dublin are winning at the moment.
It is because they have the resources to have two county boards the capital and the super-clubs are there both north and south.

A mixture of

Vinnies/Mun/Na Fianna/Raheny/Castleknock etc
v
Boden/Kilmacud/Judes/Templeogue etc

It would be competitive the clubs are there.
It would bring a bit of life back into Gaelic football the resources are there it would be silly not to use them. it gives more lads of playing county football.

salmocab

This disingenuous rubbish of giving more lads the chance to play county football is ridiculous, people are using it as a reason why splitting Dublin is good for Dubs when it’s really just propaganda to excuse what people really want.

gormdubhgorm

salmocab wrote: »

This disingenuous rubbish of giving more lads the chance to play county football is ridiculous, people are using it as a reason why splitting Dublin is good for Dubs when it’s really just propaganda to excuse what people really want.

So you really think that if two Dublin teams were formed now they would not be a success with a healthy following in each in 20 years time?

Allowing more players to play is just one of the reasons, it would make things way more exciting.
There would be two competitive Dublin teams I would enjoy the games between the two and would look forward to them, I am sure there would be some like me.

Currently it is a waste just having one Dublin team. Two would be even better.
There could easily be two Dublin teams and the gas thing both would still win plently of All-Irelands.

I think nostalgia is holding diehards back from the idea.
In America they create 'franchises' in soccer no problem.
By rights the whole structure of counties should be changed Meath combine with Westmeath and Offally?
Wexford, Carlow Killkenny and Laois make another team.
Limerick, Tipp, Waterford another team.
Derry Antrim, Down another etc etc


Louth could combine with Armagh?
Combine Silgo, Leitrim with Donegal?
In other words make smaller decent teams with a decent area to pick from.
Instead of 32 counties it could end up being about 12/14 in a league system?
I know it is not likely to happen in my lifetime that counties would be split and others combined.
But it will happen similar to what has happened/happens on a club level.
Rename them all with jazzy names job done (none of this outmoded 1916 craic) instead Dublin Vikings etc etc

salmocab

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you really think that if two Dublin teams were formed now they would not be a success with a healthy following in each in 20 years time?

Allowing more players to play is just one of the reasons, it would make things way more exciting.
There would be two competitive Dublin teams I would enjoy the games between the two and would look forward to them, I am sure there would be some like me.

Currently it is a waste just having one Dublin team. Two would be even better.
There could easily be two Dublin teams and the gas thing both would still win plently of All-Irelands.

I think nostalgia is holding diehards back from the idea.
In America they create 'franchises' in soccer no problem.
By rights the whole structure of counties should be changed Meath combine with Westmeath and Offally?
Wexford, Carlow Killkenny and Laois make another team.
Limerick, Tipp, Waterford another team.
Derry Antrim, Down another etc etc


Louth could combine with Armagh?
Combine Silgo, Leitrim with Donegal?
In other words make smaller decent teams with a decent area to pick from.
Instead of 32 counties it could end up being about 12/14 in a league system?
I know it is not likely to happen in my lifetime that counties would be split and others combined.
But it will happen similar to what has happened/happens on a club level.

The short and medium term losses would destroy Dublin football long before the long term benefits you imagine would kick in. Amalgamating counties would cause players to lose interest and does the exact opposite of your more lads get to play inter county football point from earlier.
The good news is it’s not going to happen as there is no way any county board are going to vote to be split or amalgamate with another.
Comparisons with American sports don’t really stand up, franchises by their very nature are for professional sport where players are commodities.
Again I say though the GAA do need a plan to get more players playing at a higher level.

Bonniedog

Personally, if Dublin is split I will never watch another inter county game in my life.

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Personally, if Dublin is split I will never watch another inter county game in my life.

I don't think either of us will live to see it done properly.

ThunbergsAreGo

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes three county boards.
One with the sole focus on hurling for Dublin extra funding from HQ (They get Parnell Park)
One for the Northside football. (25k stadium shared with soccer)
One for the Southside football. (25k stadium shared with soccer)
Over time being from North and South Dublin would mean more to the fans.
As the American's call it the franchise would have to be built up over time.
You are just thinking of it from a current standpoint - there only ever was Dublin.

There was never a Fingal development team for hurling and that was created.
Nobody died.
Things can change.
If there were two Dublin teams there would be a bit of flux/pain to start with but over-time things will settle.
Are you seriously telling me that Dublin would not be able to have two fully functioning County Boards for football with competitive teams?
Of course they would easily, it would just take time to get people used to it and build up the rivalry.
It would make Dublin as whole stronger in time and make the GAA stronger overall.

If there is a split it has to be for all. To be honest splitting one and not the other is one of the more ludicrous things I have read

This will kill hurling as well as many people's interests

diceyreilly

Bonniedog wrote: »

Personally, if Dublin is split I will never watch another inter county game in my life.

Me neither.
But will never happen. The County Board are the only people that can make it happen. Why would they.
UpTheDubs

Fann Linn

diceyreilly wrote: »

Me neither.
But will never happen. The County Board are the only people that can make it happen. Why would they.
UpTheDubs

You're right. Never heard such bs in all my life. If people have a problem with GAA allocation of finances let them take it up with the GAA. Nothing at all to do with Dublin County Board.
Are they writing the cheques?

diceyreilly

Fann Linn wrote: »

You're right. Never heard such bs in all my life. If people have a problem with GAA allocation of finances let them take it up with the GAA. Nothing at all to do with Dublin County Board.
Are they writing the cheques?

Wouldn’t mind the funds getting divveyed out a bit more fairly to be honest or even dubs not get any for a while as they are self sufficient now. But most the others will piss it away cos they haven’t a clue what they are doing.
But as you say get onto the GAA and give up the moaning about Dublin. It’s pathetic.

bucketybuck

diceyreilly wrote: »

But most the others will piss it away cos they haven’t a clue what they are doing.

Why do people keep saying this? Is it some accepted wisdom that all the other county boards are just spending their money on solid gold training cones or something?

Fermanagh for example get **** all funding or resources but have a team that at least is competing above their weight. Are they not using their money efficiently?

The problem isn't all these other county boards squandering their money, its that the gap in resources is simply unbridgeable no matter what they do. I heard mention on the radio a few days ago about a Dublin club with well north of a thousand members? Just one club! I wonder if there are a thousand players total in Fermanagh across all 20 of their football clubs? There simply isn't a world where a county like that competes with Dublin on any serious level.

I don't normally comment on the Dublin thing and don't think any county should be split, but by god there is a serious problem developing there and the GAA need to cop on to that fact. Dublin have developed and the structures they have adopted aren't ever going to go away. Dublin as a City has grown and that population isn't going to decrease any time soon. All the jobs are in Dublin and all the young lads are flooding out of the smaller counties, that isn't going to change any time soon. The fact is that Dublin GAA has passed a watermark and they are going to remain way out of reach of most smaller counties for a long time, no different to how the likes of United and Madrid have stepped up to a different level to that of most other football clubs.

"Its the economy, stupid".

blanch152

The only rational reason to change the county structure is to improve competition.

If that is the aim, then combining counties had to be on the table as well as splitting them. It shouldn't only be Dublin players and Dublin supporters who should have to give up their dreams.

Football could line up like this:

Ulster: Derry/Antrim; Down; Armagh; Donegal; Fermanagh/Tyrone; Cavan/Monaghan.

Connacht: Sligo/Leitrim; Galway; Mayo; Roscommon

Munster: Kerry North; Kerry South; Cork; Limerick/Clare; Tipperary/Waterford

Leinster: Louth/Meath; Longford/Westmeath; Laois/Offaly; Carlow/Kildare/Kilkenny; Wexford/Wicklow; Dublin North; Dublin South

22 counties instead of 32.

The biggest domination in football is Kerry's success in Munster, followed by Dublin's in Leinster. Making football competitive (in the light of the minor five-in-a-row) means you have to split both of them. Other counties, who have never had success should be merged.

A different set-up would be required for hurling.

gormdubhgorm

blanch152 wrote: »

The only rational reason to change the county structure is to improve competition.

If that is the aim, then combining counties had to be on the table as well as splitting them. It shouldn't only be Dublin players and Dublin supporters who should have to give up their dreams.

Football could line up like this:

Ulster: Derry/Antrim; Down; Armagh; Donegal; Fermanagh/Tyrone; Cavan/Monaghan.

Connacht: Sligo/Leitrim; Galway; Mayo; Roscommon

Munster: Kerry North; Kerry South; Cork; Limerick/Clare; Tipperary/Waterford

Leinster: Louth/Meath; Longford/Westmeath; Laois/Offaly; Carlow/Kildare/Kilkenny; Wexford/Wicklow; Dublin North; Dublin South

22 counties instead of 32.

The biggest domination in football is Kerry's success in Munster, followed by Dublin's in Leinster. Making football competitive (in the light of the minor five-in-a-row) means you have to split both of them. Other counties, who have never had success should be merged.

A different set-up would be required for hurling.

This idea makes complete common sense.
But tradition and self interest will stop it happening for a 100 years.
They could really jazz up the championship give teams new names, a bit of razmatazz beforehand like the GAA 125 celebrations Tyrone Dublin - fireworks atmosphere big crowd

blanch152

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This idea makes complete common sense.
But tradition and self interest will stop it happening for a 100 years.
They could really jazz up the championship give teams new names, a bit of razmatazz beforehand like the GAA 125 celebrations Tyrone Dublin - fireworks atmosphere big crowd

You see, the current discussion about splitting Dublin, led by Ewan McKenna, Colm O'Rourke et al, and blindly repeated by posters on here, is driven by jealousy and envy of Dublin's achievements from a small number of counties, rather than a general desire to improve the competitiveness of the championship.

Until we are talking about merging, then the discussion is pointless.

corny

You wouldn't hear a whisper if Kerry had won 6 from 8.

Like Blanch i'd entertain the idea of redefining county teams if it was part of a broader initiative. As it is when Dublin stop winning (which will happen) no one will give a flying **** about the smaller counties.

bucketybuck

corny wrote: »

You wouldn't hear a whisper if Kerry had won 6 from 8.

Like Blanch i'd entertain the idea of redefining county teams if it was part of a broader initiative. As it is when Dublin stop winning (which will happen) no one will give a flying **** about the smaller counties.

Because Kerry would not have the same structures and overwhelming resources, so there would not be the same fear of their dominance being eternal. People and industry are not flooding into Kerry, the population growth in Kerry is nothing like that of Dublin, the economic factors on every level are not as influential as they are in Dublin. No different to Kilkenny in the last decade, they might be winning now but other counties would have the consolation that their day will come.

The situation is simply not the same with Dublin, the situation created there is the new normal, the overton window shifted and is not going to revert back to the way it was. Dublin are not going to stop winning.

The real shame is that all the bull**** about splitting Dublin in two just obfuscates the issue and poisons the well of any reasonable discussion about the problem.

What.Now

There's no point in having a huge population unless there are pitches or green spaces for children to play on.

grbear

Don't think merging counties will do anything but hurt interest in the counties you merging. Derry-Antrim seems a particularly disastrous combination given the issues Derry already have getting their best players to play for the county and the issues Antrim have due in part to the Casement Park closure.

I'm not sure what the long term solution is to ensuring a more competitive championship but in the short term I'd do the following:

-Establish a proper baseline actual cost of running an inter-county team. If that means hiring outside accountants to go through every County Boards accounts then so be it.

-Once that is done then have a discussion about how much assistance each County needs to run their team. I think McStay mentioned something about Roscommons setup costing €15,000 a week. Is that a sustainable figure for Roscommon? How much of that should be coming from central funing?

-More commercial officers. I think at the moment Dublin, Kerry and Wexford are the only counties currently employing or at least actively recruiting a commercial officer. That seems daft to me. Dublin have shown how cost effective hiring someone dedicated for that role can be so the GAA should encourage more County boards to join the 21st century and follow suit. Galway, Cork and Limerick should all be able to justify employing someone in that role. Outside of counties like that then provincial bodies hiring dedicated reps to a group of counties should be next.

-Renegotiate the TV contracts to reflect the new championship structure and get more exposure for weaker counties.

-Promote the Joe McDonagh cup properly. I know that sounds daft in the context of improving the football championship but bear with me. A B championship is after touted as a solution to footballs ills but why would any weak county vote for such a championship at congress? Carlows hurlers arguably had a better year than their footballers but how many posters on here could name the Carlow hurling manager? If you are tasked with promoting GAA within Carlow why would you consider voting that'd kill your national exposure? Decent exposure for the Joe McDonagh would at least make the idea of a B football championship someways palatable.

Bonniedog

Anyone know if the junior camogie final is available to view anywhere?

RTE have the inter and senior but not clear whether junior is being screened or not.

munster87

Bonniedog wrote: »

Anyone know if the junior camogie final is available to view anywhere?

RTE have the inter and senior but not clear whether junior is being screened or not.

Live on rte player