Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45

kowloon wrote: »

You don't get it Grizzly, if it looks like the thing it is the thing, says it right there in the law

Sorry!I do get it.As do the DC courts of this land ,that this definition is bull,despite what the law says.And they have got it over 150 times since 2016.FORM DOES NOT FOLLOW FUNCTION!End of!!!

Cass

Cass wrote: »

There have been 10 attacks on churches in France in the past 3 weeks or so. From vandalism, to smearing s**t on the walls to fires being set in two of them i believe.

This one makes 11.

Sri Lanka. Three Churches and hotels as 150 killed and over 560 injured.

Attacks on the minority Christian population.

SKY news yesterday. Jeremy Hunt orders increase into investigation of persecution of over 245 MILLION Christians.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Sri Lanka. Three Churches and hotels as 150 killed and over 560 injured.

Attacks on the minority Christian population.

SKY news yesterday. Jeremy Hunt orders increase into investigation of persecution of over 245 MILLION Christians.

Meh!Not newsworthy as they are only christians after all.Dont expect massive coverage and gun bans to be enacted on the Islamists after this as of course we mustn't judge a majority by the actions of a tiny minority,must we?

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

Ah. Gotcha.

There are no "restrictions" as such, but as you pointed out the likes of a Henry 0.44 is a rimfire but is also rimfire. This is for two reasons. It's a handgun cartridge and the bullet is over 7.62/.308.

Remember that restricted and unrestricted work on bullet size/diameter and not chambering. It's the reason why .308, 30-06, 300WM are all unrestricted as are .303 Enfield. However some of the older Enfields (and someone with more knowledge than me can confirm this) are actually over .308 in diameter and lads have had trouble licensing them as unrestricted because they technically are 0.309 or even 0.310, hence restricted.

Cass, ALL .303 British rifles are at LEAST .311" due to the way of measuring the bore to the grooves rather than the lands. Many .303 British Lee-Enfield rifles - the SMLEs of WW1 fame - shoot best with bullets up to .313 or even, in the older models, as oversize as .315". For those who are able to reload, all these diameter bullets are available.

There isn't a single Enfield rifle rifle [not a Lee-Enfield, note] that isn't a .577cal muzzleloader, shooting the Minié bullet.

However, all of the problems you mention about shooters having problems getting a license are down to wilful obstruction by jobs-worths. The .303 British is its name, always was, and always will be. Putting barriers in the way of people who have already jumped through the necessary hoops of documentation, justification and humiliation is typical of the PTB in BOTH our countries.

tac foley

kowloon wrote: »

The likes of .44 Henry are well over that but are rimfires

I'm sorry to have come late to the party, but I'm trying to figure out how this old cartridge got a mention.

It was last produced in 1932, and TMK, has never been made since. The firearms that shoot it are, by now, highly valued and collectible antiques that attract some serious funds, and are unlikely in the extreme to be the gun of choice of any criminal who can easily acquire a 19-shot Glock.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

Cass, ALL .303 British rifles are at LEAST .311" due to the way of measuring the bore to the grooves rather than the lands. Many .303 British Lee-Enfield rifles - the SMLEs of WW1 fame - shoot best with bullets up to .313 or even, in the older models, as oversize as .315". For those who are able to reload, all these diameter bullets are available.

This is my point, Tac. I'm somewhat lost on the old stuff. Lack of interest, and such, means i don't really bother educating myself on them.

However, all of the problems you mention about shooters having problems getting a license are down to wilful obstruction by jobs-worths. The .303 British is its name, always was, and always will be. Putting barriers in the way of people who have already jumped through the necessary hoops of documentation, justification and humiliation is typical of the PTB in BOTH our countries.

I do know of lads, of which there are threads on this forum and lads i've spoken to on the range, that have got them licensed as unrestricted and marked as 30cal, while others have said they are having trouble with their applications as AGS (Gardaí) are insisting they are restricted.

It's pedantic and petty as you said, and due to piss poor advice given to them by certain people who shall remain nameless, they never fought it or challenged it either at a Super level or district court level. In essence they rolled over and showed their bellies.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

I'm sorry to have come late to the party, but I'm trying to figure out how this old cartridge got a mention.

It was last produced in 1932, and TMK, has never been made since. The firearms that shoot it are, by now, highly valued and collectible antiques that attract some serious funds, and are unlikely in the extreme to be the gun of choice of any criminal who can easily acquire a 19-shot Glock.

I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong kowloon, but the point is more about the legislation and this cartridge while outdated/obsolete, seems to break the mold in that it's both restricted and a rimfire.

Irish law Tac, if you figure it out make sure and let me know.

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong kowloon, but the point is more about the legislation and this cartridge while outdated/obsolete, seems to break the mold in that it's both restricted and a rimfire.

Irish law Tac, if you figure it out make sure and let me know.

Ah, gotcha. There are gazillions of others, too, some of them, like the .56cal Spencer, looking like baby artillery shells. All HIGHLY collectible.

We agree, though on the basic fact that the rest of world continues to call the cartridge, and the rifle that shoots it, as a .303 calibre. Calling it anything else DOES happen, with ammunition made in the Republic of South Africa, where is it known by its metric calibre of 7.7x 56R.

Sadly we continue to be plagued by 'interpreters' of historically-accepted terminology, rather than people who just accept it for what it is, and get on with it.

Grizzly 45

@Tac.
Who are the Historical Breechloading Small Arms Association in the UK? And how do they get to shoot full auto stuff at demos throughout the UK??

Do you need to affect a tweed jacket with leather patches on the elbows and a pipe,and prattle on knowingly at length of the differences of the manufactuors of diffferent extractors of the Luger 08 in 1915?
Or is it a bit less stiff and stuffy than that??

tac foley

The HBSA is nothing like that, from the folks I know who are in it. Just ordinary Joes like you and me with a deep and abiding interest in mostly military breechloaders from their inception in the middle 1800's up to as late as allowed here in UK. Dunno about the tweed-smoking or patched pipe wearing - nobody I know does any of that. My pal Pete F always has something along to interest us - he is one their seriously good shots, forever winning the sniping match with one or other of his historical sniping rifles. I've recently introduced him to Swiss rifles - I have three - and he's taken to them like a duck to water.

The main difference between the HBSA and any organisation in the RoI that would like to emulate it is that in UK there is no such animal as a 'restricted' calibre. So my .577 Sniders are good to go, and a .600" Jacobs is also good, if you have one.... The famous Mauser rifles used in the Easter Rising are very popular, too, and of course, we can reload for the 99% of calibres that are no longer made, or have not been made since Queen Victoria was a blushing bride.

Most members of the HBSA have multiple entries on their FAC - remember that it is the person who is licensed here, not the individual gun. It is not uncommon to have thirty or forty suitable rifles to shoot in the numerous competitions held by the association.

As for firing full-auto firearms, remember that the HBSA, and a comparatively large number of other organisation, have a valid 'in' to the military and to the many Section 7 [Prohibited Weapons] dealers in the UK. They have demo days, just like any other salesman, and the HBSA get an invite.

Get a look at this from the front page of the HBSA - it will give you an idea of what it's all about, as well as a breakdown of who does what in UK with regard to the legal use of firearms -

About the HBSA

The fundamental aim of the HBSA is to encourage the preservation of historical breech loading firearms and ammunition and to foster the study of all aspects of the subject, from the aesthetics of sporting guns and the engraver’s art, to the functional aspects of firearms used by the soldier, target shooter and the sporting shooter. The HBSA considers that the private collection and use of historical arms and ammunition is essential to facilitate historical research, and to achieve preservation of these heritage artefacts for future generations.

The HBSA was founded in 1973.

The founding group of academics, students of arms and collectors were concerned with the threat to the preservation of privately owned historical firearms, which represent an irreplaceable part of our social, industrial, military and sporting heritage. We are a national organisation with branches and membership groups that provide a regional presence in Wales, Northern England, and the South West. The HBSA is the primary body for collecting, researching, preserving, shooting, and all aspects of historical breech loading small arms within the United Kingdom.

As well as advising on care and conservation, and acting as a forum for the exchange of information, the HBSA pursues the study of historical smallarms through a combination of lectures, research reports and shooting activity. Monthly lectures are held in London and other venues. We have close relationships with the Imperial War Museum in London and the Royal Armouries, where we are acknowledged as a specialist group. We are also given access to arms and documents held in certain reserve collections.

We liaise with Home Office, Police, NRA, other shooting/collecting organisations in UK and abroad and are members of British Shooting Sports Council (BSSC). We maintain close links with other European collecting organisations through the Federation of European Societies of Arms Collectors (FESAC).

Research papers, extracts from historical documents and articles written by HBSA members and others are published in our annual Journal. The proceedings of our meetings and other activities are published in a quarterly newsletter Report.


British Shooting in Figures
Shooters spend £2.5 billion each year on goods and services
Shooting supports the equivalent of 74,000 full time jobs
Shooting is worth £2 billion to the UK economy (GVA)
Shooting is involved in the management of two-thirds of the rural land area
There are 4 million (est) airgun owners – of which 1.6 m shoot live quarry
600,000 people in the UK shoot live quarry, clay pigeons or targets
Shoot providers spend nearly £250 million a year on conservation
Shooters spend 3.9 million work days on conservation – that’s the equivalent of 16,000 full-time jobs
Two million hectares are actively managed for conservation as a result of shooting
Source: BSSC

kowloon

Cass wrote: »

I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong kowloon, but the point is more about the legislation and this cartridge while outdated/obsolete, seems to break the mold in that it's both restricted and a rimfire.

Yeah, this is where my confusion arises:

(c) the following long firearms (not being assault rifles or bullpup rifles):

(i) single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire firearms of a calibre not exceeding 7.62 millimetres (.308 inch) and whose overall length is greater than 90 centimetres,

(ii) single-shot, repeating or semi-automatic rim-fire firearms designed to fire rim-fire percussion ammunition and with a magazine having a capacity of not more than 10 rounds

Would the above not imply that the 7.62/.308 only applies to centrefire cartridges? The definition of cenrtrefire that they have seems to include anything with a percussion cap in the cartridge, so pinfire is included but I think you would have a case for the likes of lipfire or some of the other lond obsolete systems out there.
I find the way these things are written to be so counter-intuitive.

You could defend the .303 on the grounds that 7.62 isn't .308 inches either. And while you might be able to mix 7.62 and .308 as if they're the same thing they're actually different specs by different organisations.

tac foley

Definition of CENTRE-fire, or as it was earlier known 'CENTRAL fire' and the subject of a number of patents at the time, was the FACT that the priming percussion cap is located CENTRALLY in the 'fabric' of the cartridge case and visible externally and accessibly to the impingement of the striker or firing pin.

That obviates your pin-fire cartridge, which has a capsule of lead stifnate INSIDE the case, not visible to the naked eye, and is NOT directly struck by the firing pin or hammer except by an intercepting pin which IS struck by the hammer.

In any case, do you really think that people who can argue that a .303 is not a .303, and that a .308 can accurately be fired five miles and kill a person, and that a .303 is far too accurate to be allowed in the possession of any civilian are going to give a hoot about the niceties of central/centre/pin/lip etc fire?

It's hard enough for the average Joe in the RoI to get ANY kind of a formerly military calibre especially when the issuing authorities are often reading from documentation written on the advice of experts who have 'opinions' about what constitutes a calibre, rather than use established and documented facts.

kowloon

Their definition of centrefire is a little mad for sure.

“centre-fire firearms” means firearms using centre-fire percussion ammunition;

“centre-fire percussion ammunition” means ammunition containing a percussion cap;

It doesn detail where the cap is, so it doesn't have to be central or external as far as the law is concerned. So they can argue that pinfire is centrefire, even though it's obvious to anyone that it really isn't.


Then there's anything that is just a pellet of primer, you can argue that's not a cap, but if it's still part of a 'unitary cartridge' which Justice say is their rule for what is considered an antique then you're still forking out for a licence and the hassle that goes with it. I think they used to say anything pre-breechloading qualified as antique.

tac foley

Hmm.

I'm bowing out of this thread before I say something that might get me [rightfully] banned.

Grizzly 45

An intresting article for this time of year in Ireland. The guns of the Easter rising
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/3/17/guns-of-the-easter-rising/

tac foley

I never cease to be amazed at just how well this bunch of 'ragamuffins' did against what was at that time the best army in Europe

Grizzly 45

Pity that their only two people with some sort of military experience never got to be used to their ful potential in this story.The O Rahily and Robt Monteith.Both who always said the plans were utter military suicide.It was only going to be a matter of time before the Irish were going to be crushed.A smaller force-locking itself in a static position holding ground is always going to be overwhelmed eventually.Add to that sheer bloody bad luck of the signals party to the Aud being killed in a car accident in Kerry on Good Friday,no backup plans to handle that sort of an event, and the confusion of cancelling the parade for the start of the rising on Easter Sunday,putting everyone on a day off and at the Kildare races.It is indeed a wonder that it ever got going at all.

kowloon

It going wrong and the leaders being executed probably helped the cause more, even if it wasn't so great for the individuals involved.

I've seem some of the modified Gras and Chassepot bayonets for sale about the place. The bayonets were hand fitted to the gun, so even if they had the right model guns they might still have to spend a little time getting them to fit right.

judestynes

kowloon wrote: »

It going wrong and the leaders being executed probably helped the cause more, even if it wasn't so great for the individuals involved.

Something not many think about. Yes the executions helped the cause but on top of that the method of execution. If they were hanged which was the sentence for treason at the time the same sentence as a common criminal the collective memory of them could be entirely different then being recognised as soldiers and dying a soldiers death. I know that Casement was hanged and he's not held in the same reverence as the others though he paid the same price. In truth he paid more as they blackened his name 1st

Grizzly 45

Considering he [Casement]had" a whiff of lavender" about him as they said back then,and it was about 20/25 years since the Oscar Wilde trial.Being that way inclined was a social death sentence that the English were definately going to use,considering his famous "black diary" played a massive part in his trial.

Nekarsulm

There is a Veterli-Vitali rifle in a local auction house in quite good condition, not sure if its for the next sale or not. .



Very distinctive "magazine" on them.

tac foley

Looks like some interesting arms there.

Grizzly 45

Always fancied a blunderbuss...Any idea how much the one in the pic went for?

solarwinds

What is that sitting on the press to the left seems to have a very ornate grip.

tac foley

It has the look of an Ottoman/turkish/Mughal pistol with a dog lock.

Nekarsulm

Guys, I dont know about prices etc, none had auction numbers on them, and the boss wasn't about.
Lots of stuff he sells is like something you'd see wired to a pub wall over a fireplace.
The rifle caught my eye because it hasn't been butchered...

tac foley

That is probably the saddest-looking Vetterli-Vitali I've ever clapped eyes on. Here on the mainland it might raise £250 on a good day...

Nekarsulm

tac foley wrote: »

That is probably the saddest-looking Vetterli-Vitali I've ever clapped eyes on. Here on the mainland it might raise £250 on a good day...

True, but if it could be proven to be either an Ulster Volunteer or Irish National Volunteer rifle, that would make it more interesting to me

Grizzly 45

Didnt the UVF ,brand mark their guns?? The few I've seen had a brand mark of the Ulster hand and UVF "God and Ulster" motto somewhere on the stock?

Grizzly 45

Didnt te UVF ,brand mark their guns?? The few I've seen had a brand mark of the Ulster hand and UVF "God and Ulster" motto somewhere on the stock?