Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

True enough...From Barrack Obama and his corrupt ATFE lacky Eric Holder... In a little sting operation called "Fast and Furious" where ATFE coerced small-time gun dealers in border towns to "sell" guns to stool pigeons in Mexican Narco gangs.
It had NOTHING to do with stopping the illegal supply of guns to Mexican Narco gangs who buy the majority of their weaponry off;

[1] Corrupt Mexican police or military officials in organized "raids" on police or military depots. Supplied and sold by the US govt to Mexican govt agencies. As evidenced by the recovered full-auto weaponry and serial numbers.

[2] Off other Leftist dictatorships and banana republics like Venezuela and FARC guerrillas down in Columbia.
Its now easier to buy an illegal gun in Mexico than anywhere else and so long as you have enough cash to pay off the police who are paid a pittance of wages.Its as common as muck down there.
F&F and indirectly because of it killed 3 border patrol agents and the direct responsibility for those deaths like with Holder and Obama as the authors of this mess.

That did happen and it was a complete mess. But those tunnels over the border flow both ways. Look at the shootouts, most are armed with ars

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

How is it extremely likely?

It's called a STRAW PURCHASE. If you knowingly sell or collude to acquire a firearm for a person with a criminal record that you are aware of
. It's a conspiracy and a felony crime, so you are just as likely to be charged with conspiracy to commit whatever your nutty/criminal pal or relative did with that gun. Which isn't too hard to trace either by simply running the serial number thru the 4773 form
The word is knowingly.If say you advertise your gun for sale in the local newspaper,and someone approaches you and buys it with cash and goes off and robs a bank and had multiple previous, your defence is you didn't know or have no ways of checking his criminal background IF you are selling as a private person.

otmmyboy2

Criminals are always going to be able to arm themselves.

Look at our home grown ones, last I checked we couldn't get licenced on FA romanian AKs or PM63s, but they still turn up here.

There are going to be very few FFLs wiling to risk their livelihood, absent that Fast & Furious entrapment fiasco that is, who are going to supply firearms to criminals.

Read here with the following myths:

1. The United States is the source of 90% of drug syndicate guns in Mexico
2. Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States
3. Thousands of guns go into Mexico from the U.S. every day

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It's called a STRAW PURCHASE. If you knowingly sell or collude to acquire a firearm for a person with a criminal record that you are aware of
. It's a conspiracy and a felony crime, so you are just as likely to be charged with conspiracy to commit whatever your nutty/criminal pal or relative did with that gun. Which isn't too hard to trace either by simply running the serial number thru the 4773 form
The word is knowingly.If say you advertise your gun for sale in the local newspaper,and someone approaches you and buys it with cash and goes off and robs a bank and had multiple previous, your defence is you didn't know or have no ways of checking his criminal background IF you are selling as a private person.

I'd imagine it would be extremely likely the serial number would not be left on a firearm intended to be used in a crime which could mean jail for life.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

That did happen and it was a complete mess. But those tunnels over the border flow both ways. Look at the shootouts, most are armed with ars

Call Bullshyt on that last part. They are not ARs they are M4s! Go check out how many are sold to the Mexican /Hondouran/Coloumbian Govt LE and end up in these Narco gangs hands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1381630/WikiLeaks-Mexican-drug-gangs-armed-U-S-weapons.html

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd imagine it would be extremely likely the serial number would not be left on a firearm intended to be used in a crime which could mean jail for life.

Do NOT underestimate the stupidity of people over there when it comes to this sort of thing.Also,just filing off the numbers is not a sure way of stopping them from being brought back.
Forensics over there are so good that they can even now detect under "masked"..IE over-stamped and multiple filed off fake numbers which are the real original serial nrs.

Cass

This is pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suHOLFhbwsM

Wonder how long until we have this:

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

This is pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suHOLFhbwsM

Wonder how long until we have this:

We could do with a few ruthless cyborgs to deal with the contents of Dublin city centre !

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Well apparently different sources with an axe to grind with the British government. Ie Libya, communist eastern bloc, and persons in the USA with sympathy for the republican cause. So possibly most
stores in USA. They’re the documented ones.

Or by genuine Provos buying handguns on straw purchases as happened in the Florida gun-running back in the late 90s.ATF actually worked that time, they gave themselves away by buying 10 handguns in one day which was a trigger number sale. Or just plain outright crooks like Whitey Bulger who just stole stuff outright from National Gaurd armouries.IE a half dozen M60s in the 1980s.

tudderone

The one thing that makes life in this dreary place liveable, the demon drink, is being hiked in price in supermarkets.


https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/cost-alcohol-irish-supermarkets-soar-20523435

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

This is pretty cool.

My gen was promised those as a mode of transport to college by the 1980s...Too bloody late now for me!:mad:

Infiltrating someplace with your two hands stuck in a jet engine and with X tens of litres of Jet fuel on your back and no way to reach a weapon until you are on the ground....How about...No thanks!:eek:

Think you'd need a few of these lads to sort out parts of Dublin these days.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

The one thing that makes life in this dreary place liveable, the demon drink, is being hiked in price in supermarkets.


https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/cost-alcohol-irish-supermarkets-soar-20523435

Rotgut, brewed in a bathtub toxic Moonshine..The next criminal enterprise for any budding criminal enterpenur.:eek:

Sharpyshoot

Cass wrote: »

This is pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suHOLFhbwsM

Wonder how long until we have this:

The Kerry folk will think an alien invasion has happened if the next Star Wars movie adopts that to transport them over to skellig island.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

Does the title block of that site not make you a little suspicious? It’s basically saying “we are totally not a russian stooge outlet- honestly”- on the top of every page.The writing isn’t exactly subtle either- maybe they’re trying a little too hard?

Saying "Russian...." is almost as boring and meaningless as the hapless Leftist screaming NAZI WASCIST!" when they have no argument left,if ever had one at all.:) Its a hackneyed cliche and just goes to show some people prefer to attack the messenger rather than the message...

No I just enjoy actually reading a different view of the sheep fodder that passes for "news" on our MSM propaganda outlets here.:) But I'm sure you can provide proof that the above is another Russian plot?If so I'd be glad to see it.

civdef

It's a bit wierd they feel the need to deny it on their title block though.

Hey look, if that site floats your boat, happy days.

When I want to see how the nasty American conservatives are looking at stories I normally go to FOX, most of the time they seem to aim for some sort of reporting standards (I'm not including their editorialists like Carlson in this).

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

It's a bit wierd they feel the need to deny it on their title block though.

You DO realize thats there for sarcastic humor?:)

When I want to see how the nasty American conservatives are looking at stories I normally go to FOX, most of the time they seem to aim for some sort of reporting standards (I'm not including their editorialists like Carlson in this)

.[


OMG!!! Do you still watch FOX??? Cmon Man! NEWSMAX is where it's at if you want conservative news! Fox is sooo passe since they screwed the pooch with their Nov election pronouncement in AZ.

Grizzly 45

Don and Joe go back to school... So you can laugh at either of them.:D

civdef

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You DO realize thats there for sarcastic humor?:)

.[

I'm not entirely convinced that whole site isn't a parody tbh....

OMG!!! Do you still watch FOX??? Cmon Man! NEWSMAX is where it's at if you want conservative news! Fox is sooo passe since they screwed the pooch with their Nov election pronouncement in AZ.

Ah jaysus, every time I even think about looking at newsmax my commisar puts me in a liberal re-education centre for two weeks.

Uinseann_16

Richard308 wrote: »

So you’re happy for private citizens legally entitled to own guns to sell them to persons convicted of felonies?

That's illegal , it's called a straw purchase and it's legislated for...
A registry is not needed nor should it happen
There weren't these problems in the 50s when you could still mail order guns
People just need to mind their own businesses and not worry about what others are or aren't doing , and the government (the US ours and the EU for that sake)needs to understand that they are representatives of the people not their rulers

Uinseann_16

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd imagine it would be extremely likely the serial number would not be left on a firearm intended to be used in a crime which could mean jail for life.

The defacing or removal of serial numbers is another offense as well
These things are already illegal

Rows Grower

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

The defacing or removal of serial numbers is another offense as well
These things are already illegal

Thanks for taking the time to research that but everyone else would already be aware of it.

Richard308

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

That's illegal , it's called a straw purchase and it's legislated for...
A registry is not needed nor should it happen
There weren't these problems in the 50s when you could still mail order guns
People just need to mind their own businesses and not worry about what others are or aren't doing , and the government (the US ours and the EU for that sake)needs to understand that they are representatives of the people not their rulers

Well according to the atf most illegally obtained guns are through straw purchases not stolen. Who would have guessed criminals would ignore the law at risk of prison.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

This is just a discussion, a sounding board as such I’m not telling Europeans or Americans how to run their countries.

I agree politicians are there to represent us not rule us. But with this minimum alcohol price on alcohol another case of punish the majority to protect the few. I rarely drink, but now I’ve to pay more because some people drink to excess.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Well according to the atf most illegally obtained guns are through straw purchases not stolen. Who would have guessed criminals would ignore the law at risk of prison.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

This is just a discussion, a sounding board as such I’m not telling Europeans or Americans how to run their countries.

I agree politicians are there to represent us not rule us. But with this minimum alcohol price on alcohol another case of punishing the majority to protect the few. I rarely drink, but now I’ve to pay more because some people drink to excess.

Yes, it's called collective punishment of a group. We are very much into that in the Western world in our justice systems. Some more than others as we can see with gun bans in most if not all where England once ruled countries.

Maybe we should give every safe driver an insurance loading to make up for the dangerous drivers amongst us as well to cut down on road accidents? Its the same logic as increasing the booze prices or a central gun registry in the US or EU. Which is the NEXT thing being pushed for by the benevolent and all caring state of the EU.:mad:

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yes, it's called collective punishment of a group. We are very much into that in the Western world in our justice systems. Some more than others as we can see with gun bans in most if not all where England once ruled countries.

Maybe we should give every safe driver an insurance loading to make up for the dangerous drivers amongst us as well to cut down on road accidents? Its the same logic as increasing the booze prices or a central gun registry in the US or EU. Which is the NEXT thing being pushed for by the benevolent and all caring state of the EU.:mad:

I agree with a lot of that. But the booze prices hit people in the pocket. The firearms registry shouldn’t (and yes we could argue you who will pay for the pen pushers and other associated costs) let’s say it’s not costing law abiding people nothing only to register the gun when purchased. I don’t think it’s a ploy by the deep state to grab guns off people(you can argue that’s exactly what it is. But let’s assume it’s not) Americans happy enough to pay suppressor taxes and register those. Do you not think it would be a worthwhile exercise to stop guns ending up in the wrong hands?

otmmyboy2

2 points.

Richard308 wrote: »

I don’t think it’s a ploy by the deep state to grab guns off people(you can argue that’s exactly what it is. But let’s assume it’s not)

Well considering that the gun registry in Canada was scrapped after it was found to be useless, and no gun registry of any kind can actually prevent a crime, only trace it after the fact at best, and even that is questionable, I don't see the point of a registry apart from the state knowing where firearms are for a potential seizure/restriction. IE the temporary custody business here. If the state knows where all the firearms are that will certainly aid compliance with any firearms law changes.

Americans happy enough to pay suppressor taxes and register those.

Much like here with everything firearm related it isn't exactly much of a choice.
Staying within a system simply because the alternative is not having anything that is registered or doing so illegally does not mean you are happy or agree with that system.

I think if you poll any american who has a tax stamp and ask would they prefer not to have to go through the process to get it and register the item they would most definitely prefer not too.

Rows Grower

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

2 points.



Well considering that the gun registry in Canada was scrapped after it was found to be useless, and no gun registry of any kind can actually prevent a crime, only trace it after the fact at best, and even that is questionable, I don't see the point of a registry apart from the state knowing where firearms are for a potential seizure/restriction. IE the temporary custody business here. If the state knows where all the firearms are that will certainly aid compliance with any firearms law changes.



Much like here with everything firearm related it isn't exactly much of a choice.
Staying within a system simply because the alternative is not having anything that is registered or doing so illegally does not mean you are happy or agree with that system.

I think if you poll any american who has a tax stamp and ask would they prefer not to have to go through the process to get it and register the item they would most definitely prefer not too.

Wouldn't that obviously prevent the same firearm being used in another crime?

Cass

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

..... and no gun registry of any kind can actually prevent a crime, only trace it after the fact at best,

Rows Grower wrote: »

Wouldn't that obviously prevent the same firearm being used in another crime?

Only if the gun were recovered.

otmmyboy2

Rows Grower wrote: »

Wouldn't that obviously prevent the same firearm being used in another crime?

Cass beat me to it.

Also presuming that the firearm in question hasn't had it's serials removed.

I know that just marring them is not enough these days but on a lot of firearms, depending on the design, the serial being on the receiver(the part that is legally the firearm over there) can be entirely removed/milled out, leaving zero trace of identifying marks.

Finally given the relative ease of acquiring barrels etc a single firearm can be used in a multitude of crimes and largely be untraceable if the barrel is disposed of and the firearm is not located at the scene.

Cass

Same goes for ballistic testing.

We spoke about this some time back. The CSI effect has caused people to believe all sorts but the short version is under controlled testing where the guns were a known quantity, the ammo was known, and they knew which gun fired what bullet they could only definitely match the bullet to the gun 60% of the time.

When they moved to blind testing that figure dropped below 20%, and when they continued testing the same ammo in the same gun characteristics of the markings on the bullet changed over time so the match that was at 60% dropped.

I believe, and i'll search for it, that some police departments spent tens of millions over the course of a decade trying to use this and it was such a failure they eventually dropped the program.

Richard308

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Cass beat me to it.

Also presuming that the firearm in question hasn't had it's serials removed.

I know that just marring them is not enough these days but on a lot of firearms, depending on the design, the serial being on the receiver(the part that is legally the firearm over there) can be entirely removed/milled out, leaving zero trace of identifying marks.

Finally given the relative ease of acquiring barrels etc a single firearm can be used in a multitude of crimes and largely be untraceable if the barrel is disposed of and the firearm is not located at the scene.

Serial numbers are recoverable through chemical processes as outlined by someone earlier.

It will stop some people doing straw purchases.

19223 died in the USA through guns in 2020. Probably suicide and justifiable homicide included in that.
But easy availability of firearms is probably greatest factor in those deaths. That’s everyone in letterkenny dying through firearms. I know there is 325 million of them. But it’s still 19223 people. Mother’s fathers, daughters, sons, wives husbands. And yes there is a certain amount of undesirables included in that figure. But licence the person to be legal to have as many guns as they want and whatever type they want. Just log on say you know own skorpion or whatever. But you let them know when you sell it.

It 110% will reduce amount of straw purchases. It will not stop them. Like registering a car to you in Ireland. Not an onerous task on anyone.