Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

otmmyboy2

Richard308 wrote: »

Serial numbers are recoverable through chemical processes as outlined by someone earlier.

If this is the post you mean it does not cover actually removed material that the serial was on:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117077884&postcount=4657

IE here you could mill an the entire section the serial is on:

It will stop some people doing straw purchases.

How? The prosecution would have to prove that the original buyer knew the purchaser was a criminal and therefore prohibited from owning firearms.
Knowing being the problem there.

19223 died in the USA through guns in 2020. Probably suicide and justifiable homicide included in that.
But easy availability of firearms is probably greatest factor in those deaths. That’s everyone in letterkenny dying through firearms. I know there is 325 million of them. But it’s still 19223 people. Mother’s fathers, daughters, sons, wives husbands. And yes there is a certain amount of undesirables included in that figure. But licence the person to be legal to have as many guns as they want and whatever type they want. Just log on say you know own skorpion or whatever. But you let them know when you sell it.

That number would have to include everything, firearm accidents, gang killings, suicides, self defence shootings, etc.
Not that a registry would change the vast majority of those.

It 110% will reduce amount of straw purchases. It will not stop them. Like registering a car to you in Ireland. Not an onerous task on anyone.

Except that the state then know exactly where to find your car if you don't tax it.
Y'know, for your safety. :P

I cannot see any free states implementing a registry, even the unfree one's registry's are an utter hames and they tend to have higher gun crime rates than the free ones.

otmmyboy2

Anyone seen this:
New Zealand fires nine border workers who refused Covid vaccine.

So much for that non compulsory vaccine in NZ.

I know there are some here who think that people not getting the vaccine should have consequences for such, I'm wondering in this case are they ok with those consequences including losing their jobs.

tudderone

Good channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK2EIaVlWQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhSf4MBemdg

Mellor

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

That's illegal , it's called a straw purchase and it's legislated for...

A straw purchase is buying something (firearm, ammo, alcohol, groceries) for somebody else. That’s all it means.
Doing so at a firearm dealership is prohibited under federal law as it’s illegal to lie on form ATF Form 4473.

Selling a firearm to somebody is not a straw purchase. But as Grizzly pointed out knowingly selling to a felon is also illegal. Again, knowingly being the key word.
The question is how would they know? There’s no background check required for private sales in the majority of US states. So Johnny felon can go up a stranger, buy a gun with no questions asked.

Saying felon purchases are prevented under legislation is clearly incorrect.
It sounds like you agree with demons being excluded. Seems silly to ignore the above obvious loophole/flaw in the system.

otmmyboy2

Mellor wrote: »

A straw purchase is buying something (firearm, ammo, alcohol, groceries) for somebody else. That’s all it means.
Doing so at a firearm dealership is prohibited under federal law as it’s illegal to lie on form ATF Form 4473.

Selling a firearm to somebody is not a straw purchase. But as Grizzly pointed out knowingly selling to a felon is also illegal. Again, knowingly being the key word.
The question is how would they know? There’s no background check required for private sales in the majority of US states. So Johnny felon can go up a stranger, buy a gun with no questions asked.

A lot of folks will actually do the transfer through an FFL or ask to see a CCW or similar to verify the buyer is not prohibited, but the onus is on the individual.

Saying felon purchases are prevented under legislation is clearly incorrect.

Well considering that they are prevented under legislation is actually correct, as you specified, but just when dealing with FFLs as that is federal law.

A lot of states have played around with straw purchase laws but they tend to be sufficiently far reaching that if I were to go off and buy a firearm for my wife as a present I am knowingly buying a firearm for someone else, and thus a straw purchaser, regardless of whether it is legal for my wife to own firearms.

Not exactly purchasing for gang members or felons.

Thus there are often exemptions for family members, CCW holders, etc, but that doesn't help straw purchasing since it is done within families too.

I don't think there is a piece of legislation that could be written that would accomplish preventing straw purchases while allowing the legal selling/giving away of firearms privately and not having a registry of firearms & owners which could aid potential future confiscation efforts.

I do think compromise might be reached, but it'd have to be a major concession, like shuttering NFA registry and allowing all previously NFA items to be purchased like all other new firearms, with a background check from an FFL.

But realistically both sides are sufficiently entrenched that they aren't going to give any ground and thus stalemate. :P

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Serial numbers are recoverable through chemical processes as outlined by someone earlier.

It will stop some people doing straw purchases.

19223 died in the USA through guns in 2020. Probably suicide and justifiable homicide included in that.
But easy availability of firearms is probably greatest factor in those deaths. That’s everyone in letterkenny dying through firearms. I know there is 325 million of them. But it’s still 19223 people. Mother’s fathers, daughters, sons, wives husbands. And yes there is a certain amount of undesirables included in that figure.

Is that ALL??? With close to half a billion guns in the US with 370 million people,thats a pretttyyyy negible figure in everything considered.

Going by the CDC heart disease and cancer are the top 2 of the annual killing things in the US.Suicide and self-harm rates number 10.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

Other things that kill Americans more than guns,DUI accidents, falling down stairs, accidents with domestic tools, choking on food, medical malpractice,

Yes firearms might be the most used in the US,but if you then compare it to the UK, hanging is the most common method and second most common in the US. So it simply means those who want to off themselves will go and use the next available item...Do we now start a register of everyone who owns ropes,wires,flexes etc,or build high walls on the cliffs of Moher and fence off all water supplies over 3ins depth in case anyone wants to do themselves in?https://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/us-methods-suicide

It 110% will reduce amount of straw purchases. It will not stop them. Like registering a car to you in Ireland. Not an onerous task on anyone.

Maybe they just consider looking at the UK and Europe and history that Registration leads to Confiscation?
110 years ago the UK had a more liberal gun ownership than the US believe it or not. That started to fall apart when licensing for handguns came in in 1923.
100 years later, which is a short time in reality...Britan is the most anal anti gun and police state you wouldn't want to visit. People are comparing it to "the PRC lite" these days.

There should be now 12 words that should terrify anyone "I'm from the govt and i'm here to help" and the start of a sentence with "It's just..." Its just 14 days to flatten the curve...Its just a mask...Its just a vaccination. It's just gun registration,of a particular type,all types, It's just a gun buyback, It's just a badge, its just a train trip to a "holiday camp"its just a shower...

How about these words "No thanks and Fk off!" with any of those ideas in the US or anywhere else?

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

I do think compromise might be reached, but it'd have to be a major concession, like shuttering NFA registry and allowing all previously NFA items to be purchased like all other new firearms, with a background check from an FFL.

But realistically both sides are sufficiently entrenched that they aren't going to give any ground and thus stalemate. :P

Name me ONE piece of legislation or event in the US or elsewhere where the anti-gun side"compromised" and gave us something back??? NEVER is the answer!

We are perpetually compromising and losing ground.So this is why people are entrenched on the pro-gun side, and it has come to the point that people have said Enough and that there is no more compromising on this "commonsense gun control "propaganda.

BattleCorp

As much as I hate to agree with Grizz compromise only goes one way, and that's in favour of the State. It's just take, take and more take. Death by a thousand cuts.

I used to think gun owners could compromise but all I see is chip, chip, chip at our sport and hobby.

I absolutely now understand the NRA attitude of not giving an inch, even if it's a sensible proposal. It just encourages the State to push the boundary further against gun owners.

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Name me ONE piece of legislation or event in the US or elsewhere where the anti-gun side"compromised" and gave us something back??? NEVER is the answer!

We are perpetually compromising and losing ground.So this is why people are entrenched on the pro-gun side, and it has come to the point that people have said Enough and that there is no more compromising on this "commonsense gun control "propaganda.

Preaching to the converted, which I why I mentioned stalemate in the final paragraph

BattleCorp wrote: »

As much as I hate to agree with Grizz compromise only goes one way, and that's in favour of the State. It's just take, take and more take. Death by a thousand cuts.

I used to think gun owners could compromise but all I see is chip, chip, chip at our sport and hobby.

I absolutely now understand the NRA attitude of not giving an inch, even if it's a sensible proposal. It just encourages the State to push the boundary further against gun owners.

Man I don't think the NRA is anywhere near as progun as most people think.

Now the second amendment foundation, firearms policy coalition, etc, those are the chaps who would get my dues were I in the US.

They are the truly "no more" crowd and actively fight and legislate to get current gun control laws repealed, often successfully too.

Unlike the NRA hanging their members out to dry on certain matters like bump stocks, etc.
Bit like a certain big org here, only cares about the fuddier aspects of shooting

tudderone

If banning things works, why don't we ban Heroin, cocaine, cannibis etc, it would solve everything......................................Oh wait..............

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

If banning things works, why don't we ban Heroin, cocaine, cannibis etc, it would solve everything......................................Oh wait..............

Well at the very least we could try and keep those things out of prisons, the easiest place to do so I would think.
As controlled an environment as exists anywhere.

Oh, there are prevalent drug and contraband problems in every prison too?
And criminals still kill people without firearms, weapons, etc?
Ah, that's awkward alright...

Rows Grower

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Well at the very least we could try and keep those things out of prisons, the easiest place to do so I would think.
As controlled an environment as exists anywhere.

Oh, there are prevalent drug and contraband problems in every prison too?
And criminals still kill people without firearms, weapons, etc?
Ah, that's awkward alright...

I'd much rather we try keep them away from my children and their friends.

tudderone

The CIA goes woke, the world is doomed !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7yxb-gPPTA

Grizzly 45

Putin and his lads in nr 2 Derschnesky square must be splitting themselves after watching that video.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Well at the very least we could try and keep those things out of prisons, the easiest place to do so I would think.
As controlled an environment as exists anywhere.

You would think so.... But you have plenty of time doing your time to get very creative....https://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/9-regular-objects-turned-into-insane-prison-weapons/

otmmyboy2

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd much rather we try keep them away from my children and their friends.

Agree, my point being they cannot keep them out of supposedly the most secure institutions in the world, how do they hope to do so out in the real world where we live?

Rows Grower

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Agree, my point being they cannot keep them out of supposedly the most secure institutions in the world, how do they hope to do so out in the real world where we live?

Taking their guns from them would probably help.

Grizzly 45

Rows Grower wrote: »

I'd much rather we try keep them away from my children and their friends.

Kind of a parent's job to do such?? To educate their kids on the dangers of the world and the people and things that are in it?

Rows Grower

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Kind of a parent's job to do such?? To educate their kids on the dangers of the world and the people and things that are in it?

That's a very simplistic viewpoint but that's only my own opinion.

otmmyboy2

Rows Grower wrote: »

Taking their guns from them would probably help.

From criminals, absolutely.
From law abiding people, no.

Richard308

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

From criminals, absolutely.
From law abiding people, no.

Think we all agreed we want good honest people to keep their guns and those on the other side of the law to lose theirs

tudderone

Richard308 wrote: »

Think we all agreed we want good honest people to keep their guns and those on the other side of the law to lose theirs

What, like me losing my legally held pistols and the crowd who did the Regency hotel shootings keeping their ak's ? Just goes to show how well the gunlaws in this dump work.

Timmyr

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Anyone seen this:
New Zealand fires nine border workers who refused Covid vaccine.

So much for that non compulsory vaccine in NZ.

I know there are some here who think that people not getting the vaccine should have consequences for such, I'm wondering in this case are they ok with those consequences including losing their jobs.

It is non compulsory, except for border workers at risk
The last few cases we have had here have been due to unvaccinated border workers

A lot of border staff at the airport are from south Auckland, a demographic classed at high risk and generally anti vaxxers

Richard308

tudderone wrote: »

What, like me losing my legally held pistols and the crowd who did the Regency hotel shootings keeping their ak's ? Just goes to show how well the gunlaws in this dump work.

The regency guns came from over the border. If it’s a dump no ones keeping you here. You can live in any country in Eu visa free. We can have semi auto rifles, alright the pistol thing is a pain in the ass.
In every country there are criminals with guns.

Sharpyshoot

Richard308 wrote: »

The regency guns came from over the border. If it’s a dump no ones keeping you here. You can live in any country in Eu visa free. We can have semi auto rifles, alright the pistol thing is a pain in the ass.
In every country there are criminals with guns.

They’ll even allow you bring your current guns with you

Rows Grower

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

They’ll even allow you bring your current guns with you

You'd be diligent to consider a move if you were living in a dump.

Mellor

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

A lot of folks will actually do the transfer through an FFL or ask to see a CCW or similar to verify the buyer is not prohibited, but the onus is on the individual.

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.

Well considering that they are prevented under legislation is actually correct, as you specified, but just when dealing with FFLs as that is federal law.

No it’s not correct as the topic was private sales. Somebody claimed straw sake laws preventing selling to a felon. Simply untrue.

A lot of states have played around with straw purchase laws but they tend to be sufficiently far reaching that if I were to go off and buy a firearm for my wife as a present I am knowingly buying a firearm for someone else, and thus a straw purchaser, regardless of whether it is legal for my wife to own firearms.

The federal law prevents lying on the form. You can buy a firearm as a gift if you simply declare who the user is when purchasing. Not difficult.

I don't think there is a piece of legislation that could be written that would accomplish preventing straw purchases while allowing the legal selling/giving away of firearms privately and not having a registry of firearms & owners which could aid potential future confiscation efforts.

The current law prevents straw purchases from dealers.
The private sales issue is separate. The obvious way to improve that would be to require background checks for private sales. Not difficult, some states currently require it. Not having a background check only facilitates people who shouldn’t have a firearm. As you pointed out, the law abiding owners often voluntary go through a dealer anyway. The ones that can’t pass a check do not.

Uinseann_16

From the CDC
In 2019, there were 39,707 gun deaths in the U.S., of which

Approximately three in five were suicides, and 36% were homicides.
3,390 were children and teens (ages 0-19 years).
86% were male.
Massachusetts had the lowest gun death rate, while Alaska had the highest.
In 2019, there were 14,414 firearm homicides.

84% of gun homicide victims were male.
Black males aged 15-34 had a gun homicide rate nearly 17 times higher than white (non Latino) males of the same age group.
37% of gun homicide victims were Black teens and men between the ages of 15-34 – although they make up only 2% of the U.S. population.
Massachusetts had the lowest firearm homicide rate, while Mississippi had the highest.
In 2019, there were 23,941 firearm suicides.

86% of firearm suicide decedents were male.
Firearm suicide risk was highest among non-Latino white men age 75 and older. For men of every other racial and ethinic identity, firearm suicide risk peaked at ages 20-34.
The firearm suicide rate has been growing over the last decade. While 2019 showed a slight reprieve with 491 fewer firearm suicides reported than in 2018, suicide (by any method) continues to be the 10th leading cause of death in the country and firearms continue to account for half of all suicides.
New Jersey had the lowest firearm suicide rate, while Wyoming had the highest.

Colion Noir has done some good breakdown on those numbers
Out of the 40,000 deaths by firearms in 2019 only 14,000 were murders with huge portion of that in the black community from inner city violance
The parts of America with the highest gun crime are those with the strictest legislation with all of these extra laws rules and regulations that some of you are offering up as a fix
Quite simply more laws will not work , it's a constitutional right and just as you shouldn't need a licence to practice free speech you shouldn't need one to own a firearm in a country that considers both things a god given right
The huge problem in America that is that actual issue here is the culture of inner cities the country and the huge levels of poverty in the areas worst affected by violance

The most attacked firearm in the United States is the Ar-15 despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of murders with a firearm were committed with handguns
In 2016 according to the FBI 374 people were killed by rifles in that same year 656 people were beaten to death with hands and feet and 7,105 killed with handguns

There is nothing about gun control with US gun control issues

otmmyboy2

Mellor wrote: »

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.

Fair enough, come up with a law that would neither prevent private sales and not create a gun/owner registry while still preventing felons from acquiring firearms?

No it’s not correct as the topic was private sales. Somebody claimed straw sake laws preventing selling to a felon. Simply untrue.

But they do prevent knowingly selling to a felon, as was already covered.

The federal law prevents lying on the form. You can buy a firearm as a gift if you simply declare who the user is when purchasing. Not difficult.

That is absolute rubbish, on the 4473 it specifically prohibits that exact case. Direct quote "Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are
not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you."

There is no section to declare who the end user will be when purchasing, apart from the actual transferee/buyer.

Check yourself:
Section 11

The current law prevents straw purchases from dealers.
The private sales issue is separate. The obvious way to improve that would be to require background checks for private sales. Not difficult, some states currently require it. Not having a background check only facilitates people who shouldn’t have a firearm. As you pointed out, the law abiding owners often voluntary go through a dealer anyway. The ones that can’t pass a check do not.

Really?
This was covered way back in 2015 when the "universal background checks" line was in vogue:
https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/universal-isnt/

Isn't going to make a massive difference to criminals acquiring firearms, so what is the goal then?

Richard308

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

From the CDC
In 2019, there were 39,707 gun deaths in the U.S., of which

Approximately three in five were suicides, and 36% were homicides.
3,390 were children and teens (ages 0-19 years).
86% were male.
Massachusetts had the lowest gun death rate, while Alaska had the highest.
In 2019, there were 14,414 firearm homicides.

84% of gun homicide victims were male.
Black males aged 15-34 had a gun homicide rate nearly 17 times higher than white (non Latino) males of the same age group.
37% of gun homicide victims were Black teens and men between the ages of 15-34 – although they make up only 2% of the U.S. population.
Massachusetts had the lowest firearm homicide rate, while Mississippi had the highest.
In 2019, there were 23,941 firearm suicides.

86% of firearm suicide decedents were male.
Firearm suicide risk was highest among non-Latino white men age 75 and older. For men of every other racial and ethinic identity, firearm suicide risk peaked at ages 20-34.
The firearm suicide rate has been growing over the last decade. While 2019 showed a slight reprieve with 491 fewer firearm suicides reported than in 2018, suicide (by any method) continues to be the 10th leading cause of death in the country and firearms continue to account for half of all suicides.
New Jersey had the lowest firearm suicide rate, while Wyoming had the highest.

Colion Noir has done some good breakdown on those numbers
Out of the 40,000 deaths by firearms in 2019 only 14,000 were murders with huge portion of that in the black community from inner city violance
The parts of America with the highest gun crime are those with the strictest legislation with all of these extra laws rules and regulations that some of you are offering up as a fix
Quite simply more laws will not work , it's a constitutional right and just as you shouldn't need a licence to practice free speech you shouldn't need one to own a firearm in a country that considers both things a god given right
The huge problem in America that is that actual issue here is the culture of inner cities the country and the huge levels of poverty in the areas worst affected by violance

The most attacked firearm in the United States is the Ar-15 despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of murders with a firearm were committed with handguns
In 2016 according to the FBI 374 people were killed by rifles in that same year 656 people were beaten to death with hands and feet and 7,105 killed with handguns

There is nothing about gun control with US gun control issues

“Only 14414” gun murders that’s 44 per million.
Ireland had a population of 4.9 million then.
That would be 215 gun murders in the republic
There were 55 murders/manslaughter’s in Ireland in 2019. 11.2 people per million. I’d say few were with guns. If you add other murder methods, knives, bludgeoning, vehicles, poisoning etc. their murder rate would be much much higher.