Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

otmmyboy2

Richard308 wrote: »

“Only 14414” gun murders that’s 44 per million.
Ireland had a population of 4.9 million then.
That would be 215 gun murders in the republic
There were 55 murders/manslaughter’s in Ireland in 2019. I’d say few were with guns

In 2018 the number of murders in the US was 15,498.
That is 5 murders per 100,000

In Ireland in 2019 there was 55 murders, a historic dip.
For 2018 there were 83.
That is 0.87 murders per 100,000

I would say that means the US has a murder problem, not a gun problem.
People are always going to murder, regardless of the item used.

An increase in legally owned firearms does not increase the murder rate.

Thinking about suicides too since some people think that reducing the number of firearms would result in a lower suicide rate.
Similarly the US suicide rate is 13.7 and Ireland's is 10.9.
The UKs by comparison was 7.6. Japan where firearms are all but non existent was 14.3.
Regardless of the item used people are going to commit suicide.

But back to murder the item is not the problem, it is something else(mental health, depression, cultural factors, gangs, the drugs trade, etc) that drives the murder rate.

I think the US certainly needs to look hard at their mental health system and that would be a bigger contributing factor to a decrease in both murder rates and suicide rates.
Couple that with revamping drug laws and decriminalization in a Portugal style and I think the control of the gangs over the illicit trade would significantly drop the murder rate in inner cities.

Both the above would be a lot easier to implement than any firearms legislation and likely more effective at reducing violence overall, not just firearms violence.

So why isn't it being done?
There are big divides over the firearms debate, but is there the same to better mental health supports and decriminalizing the drugs trade? I think also decriminalizing victimless crimes would make an even bigger dent, even if it meant a drop in revenue.

I doubt it will happen of course, because politics. :rolleyes:

Uinseann_16

Richard308 wrote: »

“Only 14414” gun murders that’s 44 per million.
Ireland had a population of 4.9 million then.
That would be 215 gun murders in the republic
There were 55 murders/manslaughter’s in Ireland in 2019. 11.2 people per million. I’d say few were with guns. If you add other murder methods, knives, bludgeoning, vehicles, poisoning etc. their murder rate would be much much higher.

Did you miss the part where I addressed the real issue not guns but poverty
You could take all the guns away with the click of a finger but they would still have those murders but with different methods
America's problems are the poverty stricken inner cities and the gang culture that's developed.

Richard308

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

In 2018 the number of murders in the US was 15,498.
That is 5 murders per 100,000

In Ireland in 2019 there was 55 murders, a historic dip.
For 2018 there were 83.
That is 0.87 murders per 100,000

I would say that means the US has a murder problem, not a gun problem.
People are always going to murder, regardless of the item used.

An increase in legally owned firearms does not increase the murder rate.

Thinking about suicides too since some people think that reducing the number of firearms would result in a lower suicide rate.
Similarly the US suicide rate is 13.7 and Ireland's is 10.9.
The UKs by comparison was 7.6. Japan where firearms are all but non existent was 14.3.
Regardless of the item used people are going to commit suicide.

But back to murder the item is not the problem, it is something else(mental health, depression, cultural factors, gangs, the drugs trade, etc) that drives the murder rate.

I think the US certainly needs to look hard at their mental health system and that would be a bigger contributing factor to a decrease in both murder rates and suicide rates.
Couple that with revamping drug laws and decriminalization in a Portugal style and I think the control of the gangs over the illicit trade would significantly drop the murder rate in inner cities.

Both the above would be a lot easier to implement than any firearms legislation and likely more effective at reducing violence overall, not just firearms violence.

So why isn't it being done?
There are big divides over the firearms debate, but is there the same to better mental health supports and decriminalizing the drugs trade? I think also decriminalizing victimless crimes would make an even bigger dent, even if it meant a drop in revenue.

I doubt it will happen of course, because politics. :rolleyes:

I believe that is gun murders only. So you’re tipping the scales. He referred to 2019 so I did.

otmmyboy2

Richard308 wrote: »

I believe that is gun murders only. So you’re tipping the scales. He referred to 2019 so I did.

Fair enough, my post was the overall murder rate, regardless of the weapon used.
Same with the suicide rate bit in my post, overall not only firearms.

I don't really care what the item used was, I'd prefer the lowest murder rate possible rather than just one method of murder being reduced.

A la the UK, I don't fancy getting stabbed or acid thrown at me for that matter, even if I could feel morally superior that the attacker didn't have a firearm.
Oh, wait...

Richard308

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Nope, that was the overall murder rate, regardless of the weapon used.
Same with the suicide rate bit in my post, overall not only firearms.

No it’s gun murders in 2019 I’m referring to. Not 2018.

Richard308

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Did you miss the part where I addressed the real issue not guns but poverty
You could take all the guns away with the click of a finger but they would still have those murders but with different methods
America's problems are the poverty stricken inner cities and the gang culture that's developed.

It’s not just inner city. That’s too simplistic. We all saw the neighbours fighting over the drive way. I agree poverty, culture do play a part.

Grizzly 45

The simple fact is with 3D printing coming more and more online and common. and now the 9th court ruling in favour of Defence unlimited being allowed to post files online as it is considered a 1st amendment right, any sort of registry will now be moot for anyone who really wants a gun.


https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-29/court-ruling-ghost-gun-plans

otmmyboy2

Richard308 wrote: »

No it’s gun murders in 2019 I’m referring to. Not 2018.

So the overall murder rate doesn't matter, just gun murders?

Rows Grower

Mellor wrote: »

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.



No it’s not correct as the topic was private sales. Somebody claimed straw sake laws preventing selling to a felon. Simply untrue.


The federal law prevents lying on the form. You can buy a firearm as a gift if you simply declare who the user is when purchasing. Not difficult.


The current law prevents straw purchases from dealers.
The private sales issue is separate. The obvious way to improve that would be to require background checks for private sales. Not difficult, some states currently require it. Not having a background check only facilitates people who shouldn’t have a firearm. As you pointed out, the law abiding owners often voluntary go through a dealer anyway. The ones that can’t pass a check do not.

You have summed up the crux of the matter in those two sentences.

Lads going to extremes on here even making stuff up to suit their argument does not reflect well on the Irish shooting community, especially considering we have all been warned that Gardaí and Dept. of Justice personal all can and do read this forum.

The lies and never ending pursuit of one-upmanship by some is gone past the funny stage a long time ago.

Richard308

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

So the overall murder rate doesn't matter, just gun murders?

No I was quoting 2019 as that was what was quoted by the original poster.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The simple fact is with 3D printing coming more and more online and common. and now the 9th court ruling in favour of Defence unlimited being allowed to post files online as it is considered a 1st amendment right, any sort of registry will now be moot for anyone who really wants a gun.


https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-29/court-ruling-ghost-gun-plans

Metal printing already exists, and like everything else, will be come more and more accessable as time passes.

otmmyboy2

Rows Grower wrote: »

You have summed up the crux of the matter in those two sentences.

I think the point some of us are making is criminals will acquire firearms despite the strictness of firearms laws, since only the law abiding pay attention to them.

Thus advocating for stricter gun laws will not prevent criminals from acquiring firearms, by purchase, manufacture, etc.
So what is their purpose?
Controlling those firearms in civilian ownership.

Lads going to extremes on here even making stuff up to suit their argument does not reflect well on the Irish shooting community, especially considering we have all been warned that Gardaí and Dept. of Justice personal all can and do read this forum.

Happens on both sides of the fence all the time. Gets called out and that is why such debate it healthy.
Realistically the PTB can read as much as they want of this, it is a public forum and none of the opinions here advocate criminality or criminal acts, so the issue is what?
Differing opinions on what measures would prevent further murders, suicides, etc?

The lies and never ending pursuit of one-upmanship by some is gone past the funny stage a long time ago.

Welcome to an argument on the internet... :rolleyes:

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

Metal printing already exists, and like everything else, will be come more and more accessable as time passes.

And realistically even without 3d printing simple firearms can be made with any trip to a hardware, and are regularly in other countries:
https://homemadeguns.wordpress.com/category/submachine-guns/

No law could stop someone determined to acquire a firearm by illegal means, they only put roadblocks & speedbumps in front of those who wish to own firearms legally, and those people are not the problem.

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=otmmyboy2;117091285

I think the US certainly needs to look hard at their mental health system and that would be a bigger contributing factor to a decrease in both murder rates and suicide rates.

^THIS^ 1000% The US always has had an appaling record of mental health and institutions. There is good reasons the "old loony bin" features in horror movies prominently as well as films like one flew over the cuckoos nest are popular,because there is some fact in them. When you look at some of the ghastly treatments they have had to try and cure "mental illness",like electroshock , lobotomies, etc,and their latest trick is not putting people who are dangerous in the big house but putting them in chemical straitjackets and letting them out in society.

98% of the mass shootings in the US since 1984 have been caused by people who have been on[or off depending] medication for mental problems. Patrick Huberty who knew he wasn't right pleaded with San Diego mental health officials to be institutionalized 4 days before he went off for a Mc Donalds in San Ysirdio. they refused to institutionalize him. big pharma and the mental health professionalism has a lot more to answer for than the gun owners in the US.

Couple that with revamping drug laws and decriminalization in a Portugal style and I think the control of the gangs over the illicit trade would significantly drop the murder rate in inner cities.

It has been done in the more "progressive states" like CA and Colorado,and created a whole new set of problems for everyone involved in the trade and use.
Like making the drug growers having to hire armed security companies to guard them,as they are sitting on vast sums of unbankable cash!!! While it might now be legal to grow and sell the grass.
The Federal laws on the proceeds of crime make it a felony to bank the proceeds! IOW you put ONE dollar of money into the banking system and you are a known drug grower, the Feds can swoop on your property and seize ALL your assets. Even stuff you previously owned before becoming a grower. Up to you to prove in court otherwise.:eek:
Then you have the fun problem of now-former illegal pot growers having to become legal and pay taxes and employees' wages and benefits! The Cheech&Chong days of" work and smoke all you want" deals are gone since Uncle Sam got involved.

The laws of unintended consequences hit big time.Esp since there are now more illegal growing patches in national parks and state lands,by growers who have discoverd its more profitable outside the system than in it.That the US Fish&Game and Park rangers literally have SWAT-type units to have to deal with these growers and are literally seeing Viet Cong style booby traps being employed on these patches.

So ,it isnt as simple to sort out as originally thought by simply legalizing it all.:)

tudderone

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Happens on both sides of the fence all the time. Gets called out and that is why such debate it healthy.
Realistically the PTB can read as much as they want of this, it is a public forum and none of the opinions here advocate criminality or criminal acts, so the issue is what?
Differing opinions on what measures would prevent further murders, suicides, etc?

100%, we're not naughty teenagers looking at dirty pictures on the web, being told off by a parent.

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It has been done in the more "progressive states" like CA and Colorado,and created a whole new set of problems for everyone involved in the trade and use.
Like making the drug growers having to hire armed security companies to guard them,as they are sitting on vast sums of unbankable cash!!! While it might now be legal to grow and sell the grass.
The Federal laws on the proceeds of crime make it a felony to bank the proceeds! IOW you put ONE dollar of money into the banking system and you are a known drug grower, the Feds can swoop on your property and seize ALL your assets. Even stuff you previously owned before becoming a grower. Up to you to prove in court otherwise.:eek:
Then you have the fun problem of now-former illegal pot growers having to become legal and pay taxes and employees' wages and benefits! The Cheech&Chong days of" work and smoke all you want" deals are gone since Uncle Sam got involved.

The laws of unintended consequences hit big time.Esp since there are now more illegal growing patches in national parks and state lands,by growers who have discoverd its more profitable outside the system than in it.That the US Fish&Game and Park rangers literally have SWAT-type units to have to deal with these growers and are literally seeing Viet Cong style booby traps being employed on these patches.

So ,it isnt as simple to sort out as originally thought by simply legalizing it all.:)

Interesting!
I knew some about the federal banking part but I think that could be reasonably sorted by striking down that federal law and aligning it with the state's law on the matter.
Of course that would be tacitly agreeing that the famed "war on drugs" has been an abject failure, so that isn't going to happen either :P

So the song Copperhead Road is based on fact then?

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

100%, we're not naughty teenagers looking at dirty pictures on the web, being told off by a parent.

Yup, but threatening to tell daddy is certainly one form of stifling dissent :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Mellor wrote: »

I’m sure some do. But I’d guess that more do not.
The fact is, if] I’m a convicted felon, barred from holding a firearm, I can go out and but one with ease. That’s a mess, and it’s actions like that which makes law-abiding holders look bad. Not sure why anyone would defend it.

GROSS oversimplification. Unless you are incredibly stupid and want your sentence reinstated in full and lose any parole or other privileges you might have in society like child custody, employment or whatever.you will stay far away from any type of firearm. This BTW is lifelong, well after your sentence is served,and its almost impossible to get this right reinstated with a rap sheet.

So if you a real DS yeah,go ahead and get your wife, momma, brother to buy you a gun. Do you think the PD or SD just checks for your name, anyone with your surname at your associated addresses will flag as well. IOW they will know your direct next of kin or any other close associates.
They will thank you for a conspiracy charge as well and you meddling up their lives while kissing a police car windshield and getting cuffed.:eek: There also goes any chance of you getting out on bail,or your family standing bail bond for you either.So doing it this way is utter amatuer hour for any criminal...No wonder the stats are so accurate in this case.:D

The smart criminals no matter what either steal or go to "Homeboy retail"[We steal to order if ya got the cash!"] and buy it on the street no questions asked,and if you have been inside for any length of time you will have names and addresses of people who will sell you lirerally, anything.

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Yup, but threatening to tell daddy is certainly one form of stifling dissent :rolleyes:

I ike it when daddy spanks me for being naughty!!!:D:D

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Interesting!
I knew some about the federal banking part but I think that could be reasonably sorted by striking down that federal law and aligning it with the state's law on the matter.
Of course that would be tacitly agreeing that the famed "war on drugs" has been an abject failure, so that isn't going to happen either :P

So the song Copperhead Road is based on fact then?

Indeedy...It has been lost years ago...But OTOH claiming you are a drug user for recreational use or medical purposes ALSO precludes you from owning firearms under the 4473.!:D
So do you want to spark up the fun smoke,or smell the gunsmoke? Cant do both!

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeedy...It has been lost years ago...But OTOH claiming you are a drug user for recreational use or medical purposes ALSO precludes you from owning firearms under the 4473.!:D
So do you want to spark up the fun smoke,or smell the gunsmoke? Cant do both!

Unless you take a trip up to Canada that is lol

But yeah, I'll take the gunsmoke, unlimited mag capacity and all the other fun things the majority of the US has over canuk's take on guns and drugs.

tudderone

I see in the local petrol station this morning as i was passing, that the Parcel motel locker system has been removed . Dead handy it was if you wanted bits from the Uk. Sad its gone.

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Unless you take a trip up to Canada that is lol

But yeah, I'll take the gunsmoke, unlimited mag capacity and all the other fun things the majority of the US has over canuk's take on guns and drugs.

Smoking weed will be the only thing left once that gun banning, cultural appropriating,black facing tool Tradeu is finished with them up there.:(

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

I see in the local petrol station this morning as i was passing, that the Parcel motel locker system has been removed . Dead handy it was if you wanted bits from the Uk. Sad its gone.

Ah that is the death knell alright. I was hoping they'd reopen but seemingly not.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Smoking weed will be the only thing left once that gun banning, cultural appropriating,black facing tool Tradeu is finished with them up there.:(

True, very true.
Cannot understand that dolts popularity, particularly after hearing some of his responses to parliamentary questions.

tudderone

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

True, very true.
Cannot understand that dolts popularity, particularly after hearing some of his responses to parliamentary questions.

Because he is "Progressive".

Richard308

Brazil: At least 25 killed in Rio de Janeiro shoot-out https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-57013206

Grizzly 45

It seems this story about the mass in Athlone is going international.
Esp this bit about this lads mother, who is dead this last 15 years, complaining about his mental health that required a warrant service at 3AM to remove his kids...
Looks more like our AGS trying on the ol Jackboots and liking them.:mad:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/irish-police-break-mans-home-remove-children-3-films-police-barging-shutting-catholic-mass-video/?ff_source=Email&ff_medium=the-gateway-pundit&ff_campaign=dailypm&ff_content=daily

Feisar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It seems this story about the mass in Athlone is going international.
Esp this bit about this lads mother, who is dead this last 15 years, complaining about his mental health that required a warrant service at 3AM to remove his kids...
Looks more like our AGS trying on the ol Jackboots and liking them.:mad:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/irish-police-break-mans-home-remove-children-3-films-police-barging-shutting-catholic-mass-video/?ff_source=Email&ff_medium=the-gateway-pundit&ff_campaign=dailypm&ff_content=daily

Do a bit of reading. Kids dont get pulled at the drop of a hat. It’d be mental/career suicide for the Gardaí to just turn Turk and take his kids out of some sort of spite. And for those to paint it that way because it suits an agenda are the lowest of the low.
Not accusing you of that to be clear.

Rows Grower

Feisar wrote: »

Do a bit of reading. Kids dont get pulled at the drop of a hat. It’d be mental/career suicide for the Gardaí to just turn Turk and take his kids out of some sort of spite. And for those to paint it that way because it suits an agenda are the lowest of the low.
Not accusing you of that to be clear.

Well said.

Grizzly 45

Think this guy on FB hit the nail on the head about politics and gun control.


The political class, and its abettors in media, have absolutely nothing to gain by making a sincere attempt to confront the moral and cultural causes of crime.
It's immeasurably easier, and immeasurably more beneficial to their neverending drive for greater power, to tyrannize people who own firearms legally, precisely because they obey the law.
The government does whatever it believes the relative apathy and servility of its subjects will allow. There's no meaningful opposition to civilian disarmament. Why would the state ever change course?