Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Cass

@ civdef - Please, please, don't get what I said above wrong (not that you have, but i want to stress this).

I am not trying to, nor did i, say anything that happened was in any way justifiable. It wasn't. I am referring to the circus that this case created. Everything is political fodder and this case was the "one" that was used as the catalyst for what has been coming for some time.

As i said reform is necessary but not to the extreme case that some are calling for.

Example, I'm watching biden on the news right now (have to say kamala is doing a great job, you cannot even see the strings leading to biden's back). He is coming out with the usual politician sound bites about people of colour not being able to sleep at night due to systemic racism. If he looks over his shoulder to his vp he'll see one of the worse perpetrators of so called systemic racism given her history in California as a DA.

This will be used as tool to launch a series of massive changes and i doubt many will be for the best. America is a boiling pot at the moment and its not going to take much more to have it boil over.

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

@ civdef - Please, please, don't get what I said above wrong (not that you have, but i want to stress this).

I am not trying to, nor did i, say anything that happened was in any way justifiable. It wasn't. I am referring to the circus that this case created. Everything is political fodder and this case was the "one" that was used as the catalyst for what has been coming for some time.

As i said reform is necessary but not to the extreme case that some are calling for.

Example, I'm watching biden on the news right now (have to say kamala is doing a great job, you cannot even see the strings leading to biden's back). He is coming out with the usual politician sound bites about people of colour not being able to sleep at night due to systemic racism. If he looks over his shoulder to his vp he'll see one of the worse perpetrators of so called systemic racism given her history in California as a DA.

This will be used as tool to launch a series of massive changes and i doubt many will be for the best. America is a boiling pot at the moment and its not going to take much more to have it boil over.

I prefer the term "Open air asylum"

tudderone

Nancy Pelosi has bizarrely thanked George Floyd for "sacrificing his life in the name of racial justice" in a statement . Absolutely bat-poo that one.

civdef

I'd be very uncomfortable with the collision of partisan politics with seemingly every other social issue in the states. The idea that one side sees Floyd as a poster child martyr, and the other as Chauvin as a clean honest American Hero being taken down by "The Left".
There seems to be no room left there at all for nuance, or for recognizing that the other side can be right now and again.

Defunding the police is a perfect example. I've seen "liberals" argue that the police should be replaced with emergency social workers and healers, and "conservatives" that the current US law enforcement system is basically perfect. Both positions are nearly equally stupid to me.

But I think the same way about the gun control thing. I love shooting cool guns, but I sure as hell wouldn't like to live anywhere a person can have a shotgun taken off them for genuine safety concerns expressed by their family, but then go out and legally buy a couple of rifles to literally go postal with. The partisan approach to the issue is just making it worse and stopping any common-ground being found.

civdef

tudderone wrote: »

Nancy Pelosi has bizarrely thanked George Floyd for "sacrificing his life in the name of racial justice" in a statement . Absolutely bat-poo that one.

His death was totally unnecessary, criminal and a tragedy, but I don't see how she can see him "sacrificing his life"? That language is more of the silliness.

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Oh I'm sure of it.
Given the lip service paid during his campaign I think those prayers were more of the same.

Next I'm sure he'll get right on those EOs decriminalising drugs and ending qualified immunity. Totally sure lol :rolleyes:

Nah, packing the supreme court and declaring the DC area the 51st state, despite the Fathers giving very good reasons that the Capital should always remain separate from the seat of power. While probably doing mental exercises to be able to hold a somewhat coherent conversation with the 2nd most powerful man on the planet whom he branded a killer and wants to meet soon,Putin.:rolleyes:

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nah, packing the supreme court and declaring the DC area the 51st state, despite the Fathers giving very good reasons that the Capital should always remain separate from the seat of power. While probably doing mental exercises to be able to hold a somewhat coherent conversation with the 2nd most powerful man on the planet whom he branded a killer and wants to meet soon,Putin.:rolleyes:

I wonder will he rope in Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands etc as states if DC ends up being a no go.
All those territories lean heavily democrat so that could skew the numbers nicely.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

I think the verdict was the correct one too. Was he convicted of murder or manslaughter?

Some of those charges are somewhat hard to understand and require some knowledge of the US judicial system to make sense of... or not...

3rd-degree manslaughter... EG Would be you go to a bridge on an overpass and lob a breeze block over it onto traffic without the intention of killing a particular person,just for the Hell of it,but hit and kill someone with it.

2nd-degree mansalughter.You go and rob a shop with a gun, and the gun accidentally goes off killing the shop keeper.

1st-degree manslaughter, you get into a fistfight and knock the other guy out cold,but because your blood was up you kerb stomp his head until his brains are coming out.

Hence the "degree" terms in US law for seriousness of crimes

So maybe you can sell the 2nd degree manslaughter charge by Chauvin kneeling on Floyd and not rendering proper assistance to allow him to breathe properly.But I cant see where 3rd degree comes into it.

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

I wonder will he rope in Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands etc as states if DC ends up being a no go.
All those territories lean heavily democrat so that could skew the numbers nicely.

Funny for such an Irish loving US Catholic president JFK Mk2 etc...He isn't asking US whether we would like to have another 50 counties, added to the Irish nation?:D
After all there are apparently more Democrat voting "Irish" in the US than on this island and JFK was planning to offer us protectorate status when he "returned in the Springtime" but a certain Mr Kearney,of the US secret service ineptness with a then-new, AR15 in Dallas put paid to that.:eek: Puerto Rico got it instead,and have now more rights to travel,work and reside Stateside than we have..
If he had,I doubt the NI troubles would ever have happened.
Be about the only possible way dozy uncle Joe could ever make himself a name in the history books.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

His death was totally unnecessary, criminal and a tragedy, but I don't see how she can see him "sacrificing his life"? That language is more of the silliness.

Are we beginning to see why now Trump always called her "Crazy Nancy Peloisi"?;)

tudderone

And it starts all over again..............................................................

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9493535/Cop-filmed-standing-body-15-year-old-girl-just-shot-dead.html

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

I wonder will he rope in Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands etc as states if DC ends up being a no go.
All those territories lean heavily democrat so that could skew the numbers nicely.

The biggest craic will be another bill going into Congress,that DC can become a 51st state IF it allows open carry and becomes a 2a sanctuary state!!!:D:D:D Its being proposed by some of the pro-gun congressmen.

Guam ,not so sure,it might tip over and sink at any minute if there are too many people on it according to Congressman Hank Johnson [D]:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Definition of a Liberal antigun conundrum.

Only the police should have gun, as they are properly trained and competent to use them.

The police are shooting black people and kids all the time!

BattleCorp

tudderone wrote: »

And it starts all over again..............................................................

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9493535/Cop-filmed-standing-body-15-year-old-girl-just-shot-dead.html

I'd give the cop a medal. He saved the girl in pink from getting stabbed.

civdef

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Are we beginning to see why now Trump always called her "Crazy Nancy Peloisi"?;)

The list of people in US politics I’d have respect for is not a big one - that doesn’t elevate Trump by anything in my book tho

tomtucker81

tudderone wrote: »

And it starts all over again..............................................................

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9493535/Cop-filmed-standing-body-15-year-old-girl-just-shot-dead.html

Completely justified police shooting i would say. Unfortunately the girl died from injuries sustained. But definitely a life saved by the officer too

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

The list of people in US politics I’d have respect for is not a big one - that doesn’t elevate Trump by anything in my book tho

Don't have to elevate him.Just shows if you are with someone on a daily basis, you get to see them in their real colours.

civdef

tomtucker81 wrote: »

Completely justified police shooting i would say. Unfortunately the girl died from injuries sustained. But definitely a life saved by the officer too

Yep, looks like a horrible scene to rock up to, but I don't see a less-lethal way round it, that was a fairly serious knife attack underway. One big difference at this case to Chauvin is how the police made a real attempt to provide medical assistance.

There are echos to the tragic case in Ireland a few months ago.

Mellor

Cass wrote: »

Should Floyd have died? Absolutely not. Was Chauvin at fault, yes, but not for 2nd degree murder. I don't believe there was intent let alone enough to be found guilty of all three counts (must look up how someone can be guilty of murdering the same person three times/ways).

None of the charges involved intent to kill. That seems to be a massive misconception that people have - possibly based on our own legal definitions.

The reason he can be guilt of multiple charges related to one crime is the legal concept of an "lesser included offense". Eg The larceny is less severe than robbery, but robbery by default includes lacerny.

On a practical level, only the most severe offense stands. He'll be sentenced for murder 2.

Cass wrote: »

Both and 3rd degree murder. The first two counts must show intent (2nd degree murder and manslaughter) whereas 3rd degree murder does not require intent only the end "result" if i'm reading the verdict right.

The charges were;

• Unintentional 2nd Degree Murder (malicious actions without intent to kill)
• 3rd Degree Murder (reckless discard for human life, no intent to kill)
• 2nd Degree Involuntary Manslaughter (Reckless behaviour leading to death)

3rd Degree murder is only used in a few states. Based on the definition this fitted the bill of disregard for life. He maintain the position long after he needed to, even though he was trained not to, and even after the other officiers called for medical attention.
[/QUOTE]

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Some of those charges are somewhat hard to understand and require some knowledge of the US judicial system to make sense of... or not...

3rd-degree manslaughter... EG Would be you go to a bridge on an overpass and lob a breeze block over it onto traffic without the intention of killing a particular person,just for the Hell of it,but hit and kill someone with it.

2nd-degree mansalughter.You go and rob a shop with a gun, and the gun accidentally goes off killing the shop keeper.

1st-degree manslaughter, you get into a fistfight and knock the other guy out cold,but because your blood was up you kerb stomp his head until his brains are coming out.

Hence the "degree" terms in US law for seriousness of crimes

So maybe you can sell the 2nd degree manslaughter charge by Chauvin kneeling on Floyd and not rendering proper assistance to allow him to breathe properly.But I cant see where 3rd degree comes into it.

3rd Degree manslaughter wasn't one of the charges though.

I agree it's a complicated system, further complicated by the fact that it's up to state law. Minnesota is one of the few with 3rd degree murder.
As above, the manslaughter charge was labeled involuntary.

Cass

Mellor wrote: »

None of the charges involved intent to kill. That seems to be a massive misconception that people have - possibly based on our own legal definitions..

Ah.

Sky news said murder 2 and man. 2 had intent "built into" them. As said above that is where i got my definition from and why i said i could be wrong so thanks for clearing it up.

On the murder 2 being malicious, but not having intent. Thats a fine line is it not? If you had malicious intent then surely that is the intent to do harm. Is it that intent to do harm stops short of being intent to kill under the definition of murder 2?

Cass

Just looking up the various terms.

I knew from watching tv cop shows (although not a great source for info) that manslaughter "in the second" (as they say) was murder without intent to kill so that one seemed odd at the time and judging by what you're saying is so. 1st degree Manslaughter o the other hand is death through an act of intent but not rising to the level of murder because of its "moment of impulse" factor/clause.

Now second degree murder is listed as a killing that is not premeditated but is intentional.

3rd degree murder has a lower standard than 2nd degree and you need not show intent merely that the actions of the person involved caused the death of a person.

Mellor

Yeah, it’s very confusing. Added to the fact that about 40 of 50 states don’t have murder 3. Murder 3 in a lot of places, would be a version of manslaughter.

Murder 2 can be an intentional killing in a fit of rage (as opposed to aforethought).
But can also be unintentional killing, but with deliberate malice.
The latter not very different from voluntary manslaughter - where you intentionally act, but didn’t mean to kill.

I’m curious about the sentencing. I wonder does the fact he was willing to plea stand to him.

Cass

Mellor wrote: »

I’m curious about the sentencing. I wonder does the fact he was willing to plea stand to him.

That, it being his first "offence", his service as a cop, etc. Some are saying he'll get max of 12 years if that.

Of course there is the long process of appeals and they will come.

I still maintain the trial was a disaster, fraught with problems of witnesses, judicial issues, pressure over the case, political input and interference, etc.

Grizzly 45

Mellor wrote: »

I’m curious about the sentencing. I wonder does the fact he was willing to plea stand to him.

It does,as it gives the court less of a workload on the case and allows your lawyer wriggle room to plea bargain your sentence time if you plead guilty to lesser charges.

tudderone

The BLM lot etc are doing their damnedest to get this other shooting of the girl with knife in Ohio, as the next martyr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGTUWRjJ53k

Mellor

tudderone wrote: »

The BLM lot etc are doing their damnedest to get this other shooting of the girl with knife in Ohio, as the next martyr.

I'm not all familiar with the details, what exactly are the protesters suggesting should have happened.
I wonder what the other person she was about to stab thinks of it all.

civdef

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not all familiar with the details, what exactly are the protesters suggesting should have happened.
I wonder what the other person she was about to stab thinks of it all.

Lots of handwaving about warning shots, shooting in the leg, taser etc. The usual stuff that gets said in these situations by people who don’t understand how it works.

Grizzly 45

And because of numpties like this in charge...Again! is why I'm a climate change heretic!!
Yeah, let's get rid of C02 alright there John.Just one of the vital gases that the entire planet needs to survive.:rolleyes:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/biden-climate-envoy-john-kerry-need-get-carbon-dioxide-atmosphere-video/

yubabill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And because of numpties like this in charge...Again! is why I'm a climate change heretic!!
Yeah, let's get rid of C02 alright there John.Just one of the vital gases that the entire planet needs to survive.:rolleyes:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/biden-climate-envoy-john-kerry-need-get-carbon-dioxide-atmosphere-video/

Someone should compile the attacks on climate deniers (bona fide climate scientists who disagree with the prevailing narrative).

Here's one from 2017 that's been forgotten - shots fired at the offices of two deniers

https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2017/04/shots_fired_at_office_building.html


And the list of climate scientists who have been professionally boycotted/cancelled for refusing to toe the line is really something to see.

Birdnuts

yubabill wrote: »

Someone should compile the attacks on climate deniers (bona fide climate scientists who disagree with the prevailing narrative).

Here's one from 2017 that's been forgotten - shots fired at the offices of two deniers

https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2017/04/shots_fired_at_office_building.html


And the list of climate scientists who have been professionally boycotted/cancelled for refusing to toe the line is really something to see.

Similar happened here in regards to Prof Ray Bates who was shouted down by one Eamon Ryan on Prime Time a few years back when he attempted to explain the obvious flaws behind the climate hysteria - sadly since then climate science has continued to be dragged threw the mud to the point that that the mainstream media now consider the likes of a random Swedish child with special needs more worthy of air time on the subject then people who actually know what they are talking about!!