Antifa.....the joke that keeps on giving

FTA69

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So your complaint is that the 'Fascists' have stopped being Fascist, but we need to keep treating them as the Brownshirts zombie cousin because...well presumably we need someone to call racist?

No I said the far-right will be quieter about some aspects of their bigotry as they know it'll get them less support while boosting other aspects of their bigotry as it'll gain traction. Nick Griffin himself has wrote extensively about how the far-right needs to make anti-Islamic sentiment the main plank of their platform; he's still a nasty bigot underneath it all however and I wouldn't for a red second think he's in any way amenable nowadays to the blacks and Jews he has always hated.

Take a look at the EDL and the people in it, former BNP types and football hooligan dopes who have always been the same sort of muppets found in the National Front and various other new-fascist organisations.

FTA69

Depp wrote: »

So humans have no ability to change over the course of time then no? Look I agree with you the guys far from a saint but he makes a valid point about a dangerous ideology (islamism) and bringing up his past doesn't refute it.

So why did he club together with a load of other former BNP members to set up the British Freedom Party if he was so divorced from that scene? A party of f*cking Holocaust deniers and scientific racists?

Pull the other one.

Depp

FTA69 wrote: »

So why did he club together with a load of other former BNP members to set up the British Freedom Party if he was so divorced from that scene? A party of f*cking Holocaust deniers and scientific racists?

Pull the other one.

still havent answered my question I see, does tommy make valid points on the dangers of islamism, yes or no? excited to know if you'll try deflect from it for the third time in a row?:rolleyes:

Depp

FTA69 wrote: »

So why did he club together with a load of other former BNP members to set up the British Freedom Party if he was so divorced from that scene? A party of f*cking Holocaust deniers and scientific racists?

Pull the other one.

Just out of interest, do you have any involvement with antifa personally?

FTA69

Depp wrote: »

still havent answered my question I see, does tommy make valid points on the dangers of islamism, yes or no? excited to know if you'll try deflect from it for the third time in a row?:rolleyes:

No I don't think he does. I don't think that Islamic people or Muslims are intrinsically dangerous. I do think that there is a small minority of Muslims who hold distasteful beliefs and present a danger but that the majority of Muslim people in the U.K are decent law abiding people and that more of them consider themselves proud to be British than their non-Muslim counterparts. Every day I train with Muslims, work with Muslims, encounter them in my job or when I do a multitude of tasks. My neighbours are Muslims and are good hard working people.

Are there valid discussions to be had about radicalism and integration and the like? Definitely. Do far-right, agenda-laden criminal louts like Tommy Robinson have a positive contribution to make? Definitely not.

FTA69

Depp wrote: »

Just out of interest, do you have any involvement with antifa personally?

Not any more really, no. I'm all for people confronting fascists, I just found Antifa to be a subculture in many cases who would rather run around and get in scraps rather involve themselves in actual processes of creating change. That's a massive generalisation but it's all a bit too "scene" for me.

Depp

FTA69 wrote: »

No I don't think he does. I don't think that Islamic people or Muslims are intrinsically dangerous. I do think that there is a small minority of Muslims who hold distasteful beliefs and present a danger but that the majority of Muslim people in the U.K are decent law abiding people and that more of them consider themselves proud to be British than their non-Muslim counterparts. Every day I train with Muslims, work with Muslims, encounter them in my job or when I do a multitude of tasks. My neighbours are Muslims and are good hard working people.

Are there valid discussions to be had about radicalism and integration and the like? Definitely. Do far-right, agenda-laden criminal louts like Tommy Robinson have a positive contribution to make? Definitely not.

are you aware of the difference between islam and islamism by any chance? Islamism does not mean ''all muslims'' it refers to militant or political Islam. Thats what people have a problem with nomatter how hard you try to paint everyone as a racist who just hates brown people. Do you think Maajid Nawaz is a ''far right lout''? cause your definition would seem to suggest that is what you would think.

Depp

FTA69 wrote: »

Not any more really, no. I'm all for people confronting fascists, I just found Antifa to be a subculture in many cases who would rather run around and get in scraps rather involve themselves in actual processes of creating change. That's a massive generalisation but it's all a bit too "scene" for me.

Interesting perspective! would you say that antifa at the moment have been using some very fascistic tactics?

Help!!!!

FTA69 wrote: »

I believe so. He was a former member of the BNP after all, content to hang around in that organisation for a period. I find it laughable that one year he's in an organisation ranting about blacks and Jews and the next he's suddenly a non-bigoted chap with some legitimate gripes against Islam.

Personally I think he's an egotist more than anything.

I dont think theres one person in the world that hasnt said something bigoted or racist at sometime in their life

FTA69

Depp wrote: »

are you aware of the difference between islam and islamism by any chance? Islamism does not mean ''all muslims'' it refers to militant or political Islam. Thats what people have a problem with nomatter how hard you try to paint everyone as a racist who just hates brown people. Do you think Maajid Nawaz is a ''far right lout''? cause your definition would seem to suggest that is what you would think.

The EDL doesn't differentiate, it dislikes all Muslims and portrays them as an enemy within.

Do you honestly believe the people involved in the EDL have the first clue about differences in Muslim perspective? They do in their hoop, they're a shower of bigoted football hooligans mate; the same type of boor who always rowed in behind one fascist movement or another since the 1930s.

Likewise Robinson was a member of an actual racist organisation the BNP, he's now mixed up with another organisation prominently featuring actual racists. Between that he was involved in the BFP with a plethora of BNP types. People who once denied the Holocaust and said black people were genetically inferior to white people.

I have no bother with people calling out radical Islam, I have every problem with neo-fascists and BNP types using it to propel their bullsh*t forward and play on other people's fears.

FTA69

Help!!!! wrote: »

I dont think theres one person in the world that hasnt said something bigoted or racist at sometime in their life

Yeah cos that's the same as being involved in a fascist political party that features denying the Holocaust and scientific racism.

You'll have to do better than that lad.

Help!!!!

FTA69 wrote: »

I think that fascism in Britain has generally realised that it needs to move away from the monkey chants and Paki bashing side of things as that has no real currency anymore so instead they'll latch on to the Islam stuff as a way of gaining credibility. It's the same bullsh*t in a slightly different package and a single scapegoat instead of all foreigners for a change.

I have difficulty believing someone with a past in the openly-racist BNP, the EDL with its football hooligan jingoism and now Pegida (featuring more Nazi types) is just a genuine rough diamond. He's a typical far right lout but because he pipes up some platitudes about Islam that tap into certain people's fears or worries they're quick to make excuses for him.

Or maybe he & others you want to label racist & bigots are tired of seeing Liberal world leaders selling out their own people so they will get jobs in the EU. Its not the politicians that have to deal with mass immigration its the working class. Brexit wasnt just voted for by white people. Theres generations of working class people who have paid into the system & get fcuk all back in pensions because its now given to economic migrants.

Depp

FTA69 wrote: »

The EDL doesn't differentiate, it dislikes all Muslims and portrays them as an enemy within.

Do you honestly believe the people involved in the EDL have the first clue about differences in Muslim perspective? They do in their hoop, they're a shower of bigoted football hooligans mate; the same type of boor who always rowed in behind one fascist movement or another since the 1930s.

Likewise Robinson was a member of an actual racist organisation the BNP, he's now mixed up with another organisation prominently featuring actual racists. Between that he was involved in the BFP with a plethora of BNP types. People who once denied the Holocaust and said black people were genetically inferior to white people.

I have no bother with people calling out radical Islam, I have every problem with neo-fascists and BNP types using it to propel their bullsh*t forward and play on other people's fears.

where have I shown support for the edl or the bnp? only reason I mentioned them was to mention that tommy left them as he felt race was becoming too much of an issue, which I feel it is in the edl. My position is that while he has a spotty past, and despite groups he used to belong to Tommy raises a fair point, and anyone brave enough to raise the point I'm going to defend their right to do so. Im not defending how he used to be in the bnp. If you mean when you say have no problem with people calling out radical islam or islamism, they based off his current positions and outside of your personal dislike you have no real issue with what robinson says.

Help!!!!

FTA69 wrote: »

No I don't think he does. I don't think that Islamic people or Muslims are intrinsically dangerous. I do think that there is a small minority of Muslims who hold distasteful beliefs and present a danger but that the majority of Muslim people in the U.K are decent law abiding people and that more of them consider themselves proud to be British than their non-Muslim counterparts. Every day I train with Muslims, work with Muslims, encounter them in my job or when I do a multitude of tasks. My neighbours are Muslims and are good hard working people.

Are there valid discussions to be had about radicalism and integration and the like? Definitely. Do far-right, agenda-laden criminal louts like Tommy Robinson have a positive contribution to make? Definitely not.

Do these Muslims not go to the Mosque then?....Coz if they do its Muslim first, second & third

FTA69

So there's no state pension because of migrants? What a pile of dogsh*t. It's the Tory Party here (and Labour to a lesser extent) who have presided over a destruction in public services, who are privatising the NHS and who sold off all the council houses to their rich mates. They are the ones giving massive tax breaks and loopholes to the wealthiest people in the world, in the midst of an economy shattered by bankers.

It isn't some Pakistani bus driver who is the problem lad, and you'd want to be a dope to think that migrant workers are the decision makers behind what is happening in Britain and Europe in general.

FTA69

Depp wrote: »

where have I shown support for the edl or the bnp? only reason I mentioned them was to mention that tommy left them as he felt race was becoming too much of an issue, which I feel it is in the edl. My position is that while he has a spotty past, and despite groups he used to belong to Tommy raises a fair point, and anyone brave enough to raise the point I'm going to defend their right to do so. Im not defending how he used to be in the bnp. If you mean when you say have no problem with people calling out radical islam or islamism, they based off his current positions and outside of your personal dislike you have no real issue with what robinson says.

I have issue with who he is (a violent lout, hooligan and fraudster) and I'm also clever enough to suspect that a former member of the BNP who associates with other BNP members in far right political projects and is now allied to other fascistic louts - probably has a bit more of a sinister agenda than innocently questioning radical Islam. If it looks like a duck and all that.

He's basically trying to portray himself as an ordinary working class lad speaking for the silent majority, literally every association he has screams something else.

Help!!!!

FTA69 wrote: »

So there's no state pension because of migrants? What a pile of dogsh*t. It's the Tory Party here (and Labour to a lesser extent) who have presided over a destruction in public services, who are privatising the NHS and who sold off all the council houses to their rich mates. They are the ones giving massive tax breaks and loopholes to the wealthiest people in the world, in the midst of an economy shattered by bankers.

It isn't some Pakistani bus driver who is the problem lad, and you'd want to be a dope to think that migrant workers are the decision makers behind what is happening in Britain and Europe in general.

There are 110,000 Somalis in the UK with 66% unemployed. Where do you think the money comes from to pay these people?? Politicians keep saying theres not going to be a state pension in a few years. Do you think thats ok?? The immigrants who work & pay taxes are not the problem & thats why a lot of non whites voted for Brexit

FTA69

Help!!!! wrote: »

There are 110,000 Somalis in the UK with 66% unemployed. Where do you think the money comes from to pay these people?? Politicians keep saying theres not going to be a state pension in a few years. Do you think thats ok?? The immigrants who work & pay taxes are not the problem & thats why a lot of non whites voted for Brexit

Which costs Britain more? Billions upon billions paid in housing benefit into the hands of private landlords who now rent out properties that used to be publically owned? Or the billions in tax-avoidance by the world's richest organisations actively facilitated by the government?

Or some Somalian on the dole? You've been hoodwinked totally and utterly. If you think power and wealth resides with a Somali in a bedsit and that's the extent of your blame for Britain's ills you're a fool.

Stop reading the Daily Mail and open your eyes. It isn't some f*cker from Bangladesh driving a bus who is privatising the NHS.

Help!!!!

FTA69 wrote: »

Which costs Britain more? Billions upon billions paid in housing benefit into the hands of private landlords who now rent out properties that used to be publically owned? Or the billions in tax-avoidance by the world's richest organisations actively facilitated by the government?

Or some Somalian on the dole? You've been hoodwinked totally and utterly. If you think power and wealth resides with a Somali in a bedsit and that's the extent of your blame for Britain's ills you're a fool.

Stop reading the Daily Mail and open your eyes. It isn't some f*cker from Bangladesh driving a bus who is privatising the NHS.

Maybe its foolish to think I mean all the money has gone to one Somali or only Somalis. Do you not think that benefits being paid to all the economic migrants who went to the UK & have never worked a day would have been better given a bigger state pension to the older generations.
The councils sold off the social housing & when you look at the areas that had social housing the council were run by immigrants or children of immigrants & who both up the properties?? Immigrants or children of immigrants. We all know the banks & big organisations dont pay enough tax but mass immigration does not help either

FTA69

Help!!!! wrote: »

Maybe its foolish to think I mean all the money has gone to one Somali or only Somalis. Do you not think that benefits being paid to all the economic migrants who went to the UK & have never worked a day would have been better given a bigger state pension to the older generations.
The councils sold off the social housing & when you look at the areas that had social housing the council were run by immigrants or children of immigrants & who both up the properties?? Immigrants or children of immigrants. We all know the banks & big organisations dont pay enough tax but mass immigration does not help either

Wrong. Selling off council properties was a decision taken by central government in the 1970s by Margaret Thatcher. Councils were actively prohibited from using the money generated by their sale to build new social housing. Over half of these properties in London are now in the hands of private landlords, most of which are now conglomerates that pay no tax. The son of the housing minister at the time, Ian Gow Jr, now owns over a hundred of these in one part of London alone.

Migrants are infinitely more likely to be renting a home rather than owning one.

You have no clue mate. Good evening.

Depp

FTA69 wrote: »

I have issue with who he is (a violent lout, hooligan and fraudster) and I'm also clever enough to suspect that a former member of the BNP who associates with other BNP members in far right political projects and is now allied to other fascistic louts - probably has a bit more of a sinister agenda than innocently questioning radical Islam. If it looks like a duck and all that.

He's basically trying to portray himself as an ordinary working class lad speaking for the silent majority, literally every association he has screams something else.

Fair enough you have every right to dislike him as a person but your arguement re groups he used to be in doesnt really hold up. Edl situation is the one im familiar with, He, along with other members of the edl, felt it was becoming too racially charged and left the edl and were then demonized by the edl. But somehow because he used to be in the edl, and he still associates with the guys who also left for the same reasons as him, he still embodies the qualities that made him feel he had leave the organization in the first place? as ive said, you've every right not to like the man and you're well entitled to try argue his points but your logic as to how hes a racist is complete and utter bollocks.

Help!!!!

FTA69 wrote: »

Wrong. Selling off council properties was a decision taken by central government in the 1970s by Margaret Thatcher. Councils were actively prohibited from using the money generated by their sale to build new social housing. Over half of these properties in London are now in the hands of private landlords, most of which are now conglomerates that pay no tax. The son of the housing minister at the time, Ian Gow Jr, now owns over a hundred of these in one part of London alone.

Migrants are infinitely more likely to be renting a home rather than owning one.

You have no clue mate. Good evening.

So what your saying is that none of the social housing sold off in areas with high populations of immigrants ended up in immigrants or children of immigrants hands?? It was all " the white folks ". I think you spent too long with Antifa being programmed to think like each other its preventing you to look outside the box
Yeah one of us hasn't a clue & you'll see him when your shaving tomorrow:rolleyes:

Irish Praetorian

FTA69 wrote: »

No I said the far-right will be quieter about some aspects of their bigotry as they know it'll get them less support while boosting other aspects of their bigotry as it'll gain traction. Nick Griffin himself has wrote extensively about how the far-right needs to make anti-Islamic sentiment the main plank of their platform; he's still a nasty bigot underneath it all however and I wouldn't for a red second think he's in any way amenable nowadays to the blacks and Jews he has always hated.

Take a look at the EDL and the people in it, former BNP types and football hooligan dopes who have always been the same sort of muppets found in the National Front and various other new-fascist organisations.

But what fundamentally is the difference between someone arguing for X in the political sphere and someone arguing for X who might potentially believe Y? I mean potentially Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are just waiting to spring an apartheid regime on us, we don't really know, we can only go on what they are arguing for right now.

Also as a minor addendum, from what I've seen and heard of Tommy Robinson, he seemed to make a big point about both the number of black people in his circle and more than that, the fact that the Afro-Carribean community in the UK tends to be at the very coalface with the white working class when it comes to some of the negative interactions with the Muslim community. It just seems too easy to go down the line of 'working class beer n football scum boo hiss'.

Widdershins

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

But what fundamentally is the difference between someone arguing for X in the political sphere and someone arguing for X who might potentially believe Y? I mean potentially Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are just waiting to spring an apartheid regime on us, we don't really know, we can only go on what they are arguing for right now.

Also as a minor addendum, from what I've seen and heard of Tommy Robinson, he seemed to make a big point about both the number of black people in his circle and more than that, the fact that the Afro-Carribean community in the UK tends to be at the very coalface with the white working class when it comes to some of the negative interactions with the Muslim community. It just seems too easy to go down the line of 'working class beer n football scum boo hiss'.

I watched one video of Robinson. It was interesting to get the background to who he is and what he's about. It's a hard one to judge.

Depp

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/borussia-dortmund-ermittler-pruefen-zwei-bekennerschreiben-a-1143004.html

Reports two groups claiming responsibility for the dortmund attack, is and antifa, says a lot about antifa and who they really are! absolute subhuman scum whoever is behind this.

Help!!!!

Depp wrote: »

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/borussia-dortmund-ermittler-pruefen-zwei-bekennerschreiben-a-1143004.html

Reports two groups claiming responsibility for the dortmund attack, is and antifa, says a lot about antifa and who they really are! absolute subhuman scum whoever is behind this.

If Antifa are behind it then they should be outlawed the same as if it was a terrorist organisation.

Help!!!!

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

But what fundamentally is the difference between someone arguing for X in the political sphere and someone arguing for X who might potentially believe Y? I mean potentially Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are just waiting to spring an apartheid regime on us, we don't really know, we can only go on what they are arguing for right now.

Also as a minor addendum, from what I've seen and heard of Tommy Robinson, he seemed to make a big point about both the number of black people in his circle and more than that, the fact that the Afro-Carribean community in the UK tends to be at the very coalface with the white working class when it comes to some of the negative interactions with the Muslim community. It just seems too easy to go down the line of 'working class beer n football scum boo hiss'.

Afro-Caribbean, Sikh, Hindu, Christian, LGBTQ, etc all have problems with Muslims in the UK.
Brexit wasn't just voted for by white people.
Nothing more sickening than seeing Muslim men moving close to schoolgirls on a bus so they can rub up against them :mad:

MysticMonk

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't think that Islamic people or Muslims are intrinsically dangerous. I do think that there is a small minority of Muslims who hold distasteful beliefs and present a danger but that the majority of Muslim people in the U.K are decent law abiding people and that more of them consider themselves proud to be British than their non-Muslim counterparts. .

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

On specific issues : families, sexuality, gender, attitudes towards Jews and on questions of violence and terrorism the centre of gravity of British Muslim opinion is some distance away from the centre of gravity of everyone else's opinion. “One in six Muslims say they would like to live more separately, a quarter would like to live under sharia law. It means that as a society we have a group of people who basically do not want to participate in the way that other people [do].
“What we also found is that there is a correspondence between this desire to live separately and sympathy for terrorism. People who want to live separately are about twice as likely to say that they have sympathy for terrorist acts. Anybody, including most people in the Muslim community, would find that extremely worrying.
Phillips said we should not be afraid of challenging Muslims on the core values of British society.
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He said: "We are more nervous about Muslims because we feel people will be offended. But my view is that looking at the results of this survey, which have surprised me, that we have gone beyond the situation where we can say: OK, dont worry; they will come round in time, because that is not going to happen we have to make things change now.

Danzy

If it was ANTIFA then their gilded rich kid asses should be made a proscribed organization.

Depp

Help!!!! wrote: »

If Antifa are behind it then they should be outlawed the same as if it was a terrorist organisation.

It is a terrorist orginisation from how they're behaving lately whether they're responsible for this or not.