2018 Leaf

Old diesel

1) it's always been common practice for manufacturers to do price increases at various points. This isn't a new thing or necessarily linked to EV or grants.

2) two possible outcomes from this - a) the cars keep selling which implies customer acceptance for EVs, or b) sales slow down and Nissan are forced to reverse the increase.

3) let's see how Pug and Renault handle e208 and new Zoe pricing.

4) EV at luxury prices????? - it has always been the state of play that emerging tech starts at higher up models first. So ABS started in the likes of S class Merc before progressing to lower models.

5) someone needs to get a handle on the cost to deliver the EV and line that up with the subsidy.

Old diesel

A manufacturer like Nissan cannot be expected to deliver a car at a loss.

Thats why Governments need to look at what it costs pre grant to make an EV and deliver it to market.

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

A manufacturer like Nissan cannot be expected to deliver a car at a loss.

Thats why Governments need to look at what it costs pre grant to make an EV and deliver it to market.

Nissan are a full 10yrs into their EV program! They are not selling at a loss.

They were able to sell the 24kWh at about €22k for entry model for years when batteries were a lot more expensive and it was profitable. Each iteration has been more expensive to buy, not less.

I don’t think the increase is to ensure they don’t sell at a loss. It’s simple economics, they are maximising profit because the competition isn’t there and is likely to be at least another 18 months away so they’re going to get as much as they can for it. I don’t blame them, it’s a business.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Nissan are a full 10yrs into their EV program! They are not selling at a loss.

They were able to sell the 24kWh at about €22k for entry model for years when batteries were a lot more expensive and it was profitable. Each iteration has been more expensive to buy, not less.

I don’t think the increase is to ensure they don’t sell at a loss. It’s simple economics, they are maximising profit because the competition isn’t there and is likely to be at least another 18 months away so they’re going to get as much as they can for it. I don’t blame them, it’s a business.

Exactly

The sympathy for big auto here lol, always gets me

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

It’s simple economics, they are maximising profit because the competition isn’t there and is likely to be at least another 18 months away so they’re going to get as much as they can for it. I don’t blame them, it’s a business.

Agree with everything you said KCross, but not this part.

What's going to change in 18 months time?

If it's VW your referring to in 18 months, anyone with a bit of cop on would know they are not going to start the race to the bottom, that's never been VW

They have shareholders and massive massive debt to take care of.

They'll sell as many EV's as they can to meet EU regulations and try to make nice profit's while doing it and sell another 10 million ICE vehicles a year until all the shareholders are dead and buried.

So many things going on behind the scenes we are unaware of.

One I always get a good laugh out of is not enough batteries to satisfy demand, massive massive companies like Samsung SDI and Panasonic are basically begging for battery contract's, really unhappy with sales/demand.

Saw an interesting post on a Tesla forum recently from a guy working in the industry with contacts in Samsung SDI

He said they were really quiet, he said all the big battery contracts are going to startups that don't have production capacity and are giving out tender prices that they will never be able to reach and believes Autogiants knows this and don't care as they would love nothing more than to keep delaying

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Agree with everything you said KCross, but not this part.

What's going to change in 18 months time?

Well, my 8-ball doesn’t see beyond 18 months, which is why I said “at least”!

I may be wrong but I don’t remember hearing any EVs going into volume production in the next 18 months, bar the ID.3. That and the 39kWh Ioniq are the only two that would compete with Nissan and I’m not holding my breath for Hyundai to up production.

It’s sad but true, I think.

slave1

The only time recently to get a good price EV was the Ioniq scrappage and then the UK scene in 2016 when a lot of EVs came off PCP, since then nothing of super value in circulation, I have been tempted to move from our L30 to a L40 used from the UK but the UK prices have gone up the last 6 months so just gonna hold steady until better value comes along

samih

Had the first proper spin on the L40 since the BMS/rapidgate upgrade and the car feels like like is should now: The second charge of the day after a steady 120 km/h run from Limerick to Barack Obama Plaza resulted in 39 kW charge (which is techinally speaking very slightly rapidgating) rate and we were ready to continue the remaining 130 km home after only 25 minutes of charging. Which was a well as there were a Kona 60 and a Model S waiting to use the charger after us.

The charging infrastructure in Kerry sucks. We stayed about 40 km from Killarney and apart from 1 working AC socket in Kilorglin there is nothing suitable availble for miles but had to drive 80 km return to charge in Killarney. And in Killarney itself the only remaining 22 kW AC post in town was out which meant that we had return back to the Topaz/Nissan rapid and topup there to ful battery. Luckily there was no congestion and the next driver who had just arrived didn't need to ring me to my number I had left on the screen while we had pizza.

Anyway, no more rapidgating for us in Ireland and now the ESB or the market forces need to just build us a working charging network.

Gile_na_gile

It's clear that we need a European disrupter like Tesla but for a European audience. I'm happy for Tesla to fill that role but they are not building here, so we are not getting the same offering as they get in the US in relation to price or demand.



The Tesla range reflects the needs of an American audience, even if the products are beautiful. It would take years and years to grow a European equivalent, and we have nothing in the wings except our standard European manufacturers who will continue to contrain supply and supplement their core products for the next eight years.


The most popular family cars (1 car house) are Leaf, Outlander PHEV, and Ioniq (sub 30-35k after grants). That and the crossover market is where the opportunities are. Perhaps if Volvo walk the walk a little faster and commit to no HEVs/PHEVs and go full BEV.

Old diesel

Ambient temps aren't paricularly hot at the moment though.

I doubt you would get away with 39 kw at the 2nd rapid after 120 kph run down the motorway - in hot summer weather - ie getting on for 30 degrees ambient.

Soarer

Old diesel wrote: »

Ambient temps aren't paricularly hot at the moment though.

I doubt you would get away with 39 kw at the 2nd rapid after 120 kph run down the motorway - in hot summer weather - ie getting on for 30 degrees ambient.

So two days a year.

samih

Old diesel wrote: »

Ambient temps aren't paricularly hot at the moment though.

I doubt you would get away with 39 kw at the 2nd rapid after 120 kph run down the motorway - in hot summer weather - ie getting on for 30 degrees ambient.

True, it was only just under 20 degrees yesterday. For those 30 degree long runs the L40 drivers will need to be careful.

Soarer

Just checked the Nissan website there, and the L40 is advertised at €28,690, excluding delivery.

Linky

I always thought the cheapest version could've been gotten for around €26k, no?

samih

Soarer wrote: »

Just checked the Nissan website there, and the L40 is advertised at €28,690, excluding delivery.

Linky

I always thought the cheapest version could've been gotten for around €26k, no?

The price has been that since last year. The initial pricing was 26 for the SV but when Nissan figured out that the competition was delayed the prices were bumped up.

Our launch edition at just under 30k+del turned out to be a great buy especially with the 15k trade in for the old 24 kWh car.

Old diesel

Soarer wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

Ambient temps aren't paricularly hot at the moment though.

I doubt you would get away with 39 kw at the 2nd rapid after 120 kph run down the motorway - in hot summer weather - ie getting on for 30 degrees ambient.

So two days a year.

I cited 30 degrees to differentiate between the current weather and the really hot summer weather.

The German you tuber who got 19 kw FIRST charge last year got it at 23 degrees ambient.

Granted he was really shifting at flat out on autobahn pace but still.

There is no doubt that the software update helps the car in many driving situations but it tackles the symptom of an issue (charge throttling) without addressing the cause (battery getting too hard).

Soarer

Yup, agree with all that.

But a German sitting at 140km/h (or whatever it was) on the Autobahn has zero relevance to Irish drivers.
Same goes for a 30 degree ambient temperature, even though that is a little more relevant.

The odds of an Irish L40 driver having to travel >300kms @ 120km/h in 30 degrees heat are fairly remote to be fair.

Usual disclaimer: Obviously Nissan should've added active battery management, and L40 drivers shouldn't have to worry about such trivialities. But we are where we are, and the software has taken the edge off things.

icom

Soarer wrote: »

Just checked the Nissan website there, and the L40 is advertised at €28,690, excluding delivery.

Linky

I always thought the cheapest version could've been gotten for around €26k, no?

When the Leaf 40 was announced they had an entry grade XE model, it had steel wheels and no sat nav or Nissan Connect, priced at €26,290.

They withdrew it soon after, so that made the SV the new entry level car.

http://changinglanes.ie/irish-pricing-new-2018-nissan-leaf/

Stealthirl

Nissan List the SVE at €32,600 but every dealer has them up at €35k+ and say Price advertised is after the €5000 SEAI grant what about the VRT discount ?

Cheapest 19 SVE is €30K and has nearly 15K km on it

unkel

Stealthirl wrote: »

Nissan List the SVE at €32,600 but every dealer has them up at €35k+

Crazy money. I wouldn't pay a cent over €26k for one brand new on the road.

Stealthirl

unkel wrote: »

Crazy money. I wouldn't pay a cent over €26k for one brand new on the road.

Base is €28,690 + delivery of 1-1,300 that's defiantly over the odd's and should be €26K. An SVE should be 30K though.
Cheapest SVE in Ireland is €29K and that's a 181 with 18K km
Even in the UK used Tekna's start at £24K/€27

I was thinking about changing in 6-8 months for a L40 SVE/Tekna so have been keeping an eye on pricing.

unkel

Stealthirl wrote: »

I was thinking about changing in 6-8 months for a L40 SVE/Tekna so have been keeping an eye on pricing.

You should be able to get a far better EV for your money near enough then, like VW ID. Or maybe a second hand L40? Although it looks like all EVs will continue to have very low depreciation / will hold their value extremely well because of demand > supply

slave1

unkel wrote: »

You should be able to get a far better EV for your money near enough then, like VW ID. Or maybe a second hand L40? Although it looks like all EVs will continue to have very low depreciation / will hold their value extremely well because of demand > supply

2nd L40 in the UK a good £2k higher than they were a few months back, there's no value to be got from a L40 either new here or UK import, they are not worth the price.

unkel

Yep, UK second hand EV prices have shot up, it's unreal. Cheapest second hand Ioniq last time I looked on auto trader was GBP23k :eek:

Old diesel

The 35 k cars are down as 192 on carzone.

Covered therefore by the price increase imo.

So extra money for the 192.

I'm assuming the Nissan list price is the old price..

Dare I mention *brexit* when the cars are built in UK.

Granted the WTO 10 percent tariff isn't going to kick in for no deal until 1st November.

But by hiking the price now Nissan have an extra margin on all cars exported pre 1st November

samih

You'd think Nissan would like to sell as many cars as possible between now and 1st November and had some price incentives. And capitalize on the delivery shortages of the other makes.

The L40 turned out be more competive than expected now that the rapidgate slowdown has been mitigated. The car has pretty good range even on the motorway expecially in warm weather, and the other 40ish kW and up cars also charge pretty slowly active cooling or not. The biggest issues for Nissan now is the lack of CCS before ESB gets the new chargers going.

sk8board

What’s rare is valuable.

With things like a 1 year waiting list for the Niro (which, from reviews, appears to be top of the EV family car pile before it even gets here), it’s easy to see why EVs on garage floors are trading over sticker.

with just 4-5 viable options, and so many people looking, it’s little wonder the prices are up.

Personally I wouldn't wait a year for an EV that might be superseded on range and tech before I even get it, that’s just me.
I paid €415 last year to extend the 3 year manufacturer comprehensive warranty on my bmw and will do it again this July.
If you don’t really need to change, ‘wait and see’ is the best value in the market right now imho

KCross

sk8board wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't wait a year for an EV that might be superseded on range and tech before I even get it, that’s just me.

You'll be forever waiting then, because EV's are going to be incrementally improving for many many years. I'd say its almost certain there will be a battery breakthrough in the next decade. How long that will take to filter down to affordable cars is another guess.

sk8board wrote: »

If you don’t really need to change, ‘wait and see’ is the best value in the market right now imho

The risk there is that by the time you move, the grants will be rolling back.

If a BEV available today suits you, buy it, would be my opinion.
If they dont suit you, then wait and cross your fingers that one is available before the grants roll back.

creedp

KCross wrote: »

You'll be forever waiting then, because EV's are going to be incrementally improving for many many years. I'd say its almost certain there will be a battery breakthrough in the next decade. How long that will take to filter down to affordable cars is another guess.



The risk there is that by the time you move, the grants will be rolling back.

If a BEV available today suits you, buy it, would be my opinion.
If they dont suit you, then wait and cross your fingers that one is available before the grants roll back.

If the grants go the pretax price will reduce as no one in their right mind would pay the current pretax price - €50k for a Kona!

unkel

creedp wrote: »

If the grants go the pretax price will reduce as no one in their right mind would pay the current pretax price - €50k for a Kona!

It's staggering that so many people paid the guts of €40k for one, in most EU countries the car sold out within weeks with a one year waiting list :eek:

creedp

unkel wrote: »

It's staggering that so many people paid the guts of €40k for one, in most EU countries the car sold out within weeks with a one year waiting list :eek:

Some people will pay a premium to be an early adopter but the majority will be a little bit more circumspect about shelling out that kind of cash for what is a pretty compact car