2018 Leaf

BoatMad

Had it confirmed by Nissan Ireland , 2018 leaf will debut with 40 kWh battery !

Calahonda52

BoatMad wrote: »

Had it confirmed by Nissan Ireland , 2018 leaf will debut with 40 kWh battery !

Calahonda Accounts y/e: 31/12/2017

Dr. P&L:..................... €25,000
....Cr. Motor Vehicles.....€25,000

liamog

If they don't radically change the shape then we should probably expect an EPA range of around 155 miles or 250km.

NIMAN

liamog wrote: »

If they don't radically change the shape then we should probably expect an EPA range of around 155 miles or 250km.

Would this make buyers take the plunge?

Often you hear people mention 200 - 300 miles as what they'd need.

grogi

liamog wrote: »

If they don't radically change the shape then we should probably expect an EPA range of around 155 miles or 250km.

Slight change of the rear, make it more Priusish, and the drag drops radically...

Leaf is ugly as it is, if they don't hire Pontiac Aztec designer, it would take be any worse...

unkel

Price would be interesting. Any ideas?

liamog wrote: »

If they don't radically change the shape then we should probably expect an EPA range of around 155 miles or 250km.

If even that. 2016 30kWh has EPA range of 172km, if you stuck a 40kWh battery in it, that would be 229km. A tiny bit more than the 28kWh Ioniq. And of course if you drive it fast, range would shrink to ridiculously small figures.

Evd-Burner

I wonder will they make any more efficiencies in regard to the motor and drive train.

unkel

In fairness, they are not the issue. The poor coefficient of drag of 0.32 is the problem. While not a bad figure at all really compared to most cars for sale even today, it's not great for an EV if you want to drive it over 90km/h

To compare, the 2 cars with the best coefficient of drag for sale in 2017 of all cars including all ICE cars, are the Tesla Model S and the Hyundai Ioniq (both 0.24). Both EVs. That's no coincidence. It's obvious that both Tesla and Hyundai are well aware of the great importance of aerodynamics in EVs.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

In fairness, they are not the issue. The poor coefficient of drag of 0.32 is the problem. While not a bad figure at all really compared to most cars for sale even today, it's not great for an EV if you want to drive it over 90km/h

To compare, the 2 cars with the best coefficient of drag for sale in 2017 of all cars including all ICE cars, are the Tesla Model S and the Hyundai Ioniq (both 0.24). Both EVs. That's no coincidence. It's obvious that both Tesla and Hyundai are well aware of the great importance of aerodynamics in EVs.

I'm reading the Leaf has the Cd of 0.29 (which is still huge - similar to Opel Calibra from late 80s)... Where did you get the 0.32 (which would be gigantic)?

unkel

That's the official figure, but we all know many car makers like to cheat. It tested as 0.32

Linky

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Would this make buyers take the plunge?

Often you hear people mention 200 - 300 miles as what they'd need.

Unlikely if it's only half that!

"range of around 155 miles"

grogi

unkel wrote: »

That's the official figure, but we all know many car makers like to cheat. It tested as 0.32

Linky

I think that might be the biggest issue, from the link:

The large, boxy Leaf has a 7.8-square-foot drag area, the largest of any vehicle in the test.

unkel

Aye. I like to get on a bit. At 150km/h I'd say the range in the Ioniq is maybe something like 120-130km. In the Leaf (24kWh) it's probably no more than 40-50km, which in 2017 is shockingly bad.

DrPhilG

If that's as good as it gets then feck off Nissan.

unkel

What do you mean, DrPhilG? You're disappointed it's "only" 40kWh? I feel that's a respectable enough capacity. You have to take into account the Leaf competes at the bottom of the market. What were you expecting, 60kWh?

Nissan (and all other EV manufacturers excluding Tesla and Hyundai) have to be aware though that the most important thing about EVs is coefficient of drag. Nothing else matters as much. Not for now anyway while battery capacity comes at a price.

DrPhilG

When the September reveal was confirmed the leaks all said real life 200 mile range.

It's not the size I'm saying feck off to, it's the range.

The 30kwh Leaf has what, 105-110 miles real life? To wait so long for the confirmation of Leaf II and then see that they're only adding 40-45 miles is a major disappointment.

If Hyundai can get similar range to the current Leaf with a smaller battery, including much better motorway range, then they could blow the new Leaf out of the water if/when they bring out a bigger battery model.

Of course this is currently speculation and Nissan may have dramatically improved the battery and the shape of the car, hence the "If" at the start of my previous post!

cros13

I got from two sources at Nissan that at least two battery capacities would be offered at launch....with a third closely following. Now that was ~12-18 months ago and plans may have changed... but with the competition hitting the road next year they'd be mad not to have an option in the 60kWh class.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Aye. I like to get on a bit. At 150km/h I'd say the range in the Ioniq is maybe something like 120-130km.

You'd say ?

I doubt many dealers know what Nissan plan to launch, it would be all over the internet by now.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd say ?

As always I'm just guessing, Mad_Lad. You know well that several times my guesses were subsequently proven to be in the ball park by real life figures from other sites.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

two sources at Nissan

Just to clarify how serious those sources are, one was in Nissan corporate and the other was at a Nissan R&D center working on Z.E. powertrains.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt many dealers know what Nissan plan to launch, it would be all over the internet by now.

The 40 kWh battery was confirmed by the product manager for leaf in front of 50 people.

Nissan will be also releasing a powerwall product next year.

There's no way a 60 kWh battery could be supplied within the existing price point and that's the key issue for Nissan

One presumes as its a new platform , there will be room for additional capacity

He also mentioned it will come with " unspecified " driver automation

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt many dealers know what Nissan plan to launch, it would be all over the internet by now.

http://pushevs.com/2016/08/11/update-on-the-nissan-leaf-40-kwh-story/

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/16/140-miles-nissan-leaf-40-kwh-coming-year-rumor/

I believe the actual battery will be bigger as Nissan are switching to " usable " battery , this would allow 400km range to be claimed using NEDC tests. ( of course less in the US EPA tests )

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

He also mentioned it will come with " unspecified " driver automation

It's coming with Gen.1 ProPilot which handles single-lane driving on motorways up to ~130km/h. The auto-steer needs to be nannied a bit, you've to pretty much keep a light touch on the wheel at all times.

It's no Autopilot... no lane-change functionality... doesn't keep to the center of the lane very well and it kinda feels less safe at higher speeds because of that.

As I understood it the original plan was to have a 30kWh, ~40kWh and 50kWh pack, coupled with better aerodynamics. That changed in early 2016... with plans for a lower spec EV slotting below the Leaf (most probably the Micra) due late this year. I'm still hearing a 60kWh class battery will top the range, but that's carrying the caveat that it may not launch with that size of pack.

Marcusm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Calahonda Accounts y/e: 31/12/2017

Dr. P&L:..................... €25,000
....Cr. Motor Vehicles.....€25,000

You think your car needs to be written off on foot of the new one!

ted1

grogi wrote: »

Slight change of the rear, make it more Priusish, and the drag drops radically...

Leaf is ugly as it is, if they don't hire Pontiac Aztec designer, it would take be any worse...

Add two extra seats. Make it a 7 seater.

Soarer

So coming closer to the end of the year, what are the odds of getting a new current model 30kWh 6.6kW SVE Leaf for less than €20k including scrappage?

I know the range will be surpassed with the new model and it'll depreciate like lightning.
But if it suited the buyer.....

Calahonda52

Soarer wrote: »

So coming closer to the end of the year, what are the odds of getting a new current model 30kWh 6.6kW SVE Leaf for less than €20k including scrappage?

I know the range will be surpassed with the new model and it'll depreciate like lightning.
But if it suited the buyer.....

It needs to suit the seller as well.:D
It really depend on how they will approach it:
will it be like the computer hardware market where the next model destroys the existing stock values.
Getting an 8k discount on a 28k spend seems pretty aggressive, without knowing the price of the new models

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

It's coming with Gen.1 ProPilot which handles single-lane driving on motorways up to ~130km/h. The auto-steer needs to be nannied a bit, you've to pretty much keep a light touch on the wheel at all times.

It's no Autopilot... no lane-change functionality... doesn't keep to the center of the lane very well and it kinda feels less safe at higher speeds because of that.

As I understood it the original plan was to have a 30kWh, ~40kWh and 50kWh pack, coupled with better aerodynamics. That changed in early 2016... with plans for a lower spec EV slotting below the Leaf (most probably the Micra) due late this year. I'm still hearing a 60kWh class battery will top the range, but that's carrying the caveat that it may not launch with that size of pack.

The big issue is whether the efficiency will be up there with the iconiq, that has the cat amongst the pigeons

cros13

I think the 2nd hand market will hold up well. You'll still have plenty of new people entering the EV market at price points that won't stretch to a new EV and there'll be limited supply given how few bought new.

I'd hate to have to buy Leaf II with only 40 Kwh, obviously I'd have no choice if that's what they offer.

I also don't think I'd bother with their automation if you need to keep your hand on the wheel, I want something to take the sting out of driving home after night shifts.

I'd hate to have to keep my Leaf another year or two.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

There's no way a 60 kWh battery could be supplied within the existing price point and that's the key issue for Nissan

This is it. Although how does Tesla do it with the 60kWh Model 3 that's also powerful and quick for $35k?

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

This is it. Although how does Tesla do it with the 60kWh Model 3 that's also powerful and quick for $35k?

Will it end up being $35K in Ireland? Otherwise, Musk always maintained this was the reason for them going to the trouble of the Gigafactory near Reno - scalability - resulting in a lower price point per kWh.

unkel

No, but likely to be about €39k (see the Tesla Model 3 thread), which in fairness is very cheap for what you get. But as BoatMad rightly pointed out, it's not in the same price range of €20k-€25k that Ioniq, Leaf and Zoe are. Pressure though on the likes of them to keep their prices down. Even a 40kWh Leaf should be well, well south of €30k...

Current Nissan pricing already doesn't make sense as the cheapest 30kWh Leaf with metallic paint and 6.6kW charger lists at €31k. Perhaps you'd get it for €25k cash, I don't know. If not, it's overpriced never even mind it's a very old model now and about to be replaced.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

This is it. Although how does Tesla do it with the 60kWh Model 3 that's also powerful and quick for $35k?

we have yet to see that and the point is Tesla sells very few cars with base model specs ( and the same is true of the Model 3)

BoatMad

I also don't think I'd bother with their automation if you need to keep your hand on the wheel, I want something to take the sting out of driving home after night shifts.

its called a taxi

seriusly , the primary reason that you have to remain in control is the issue of liability in the event of an accident. It will take a considerable time and body of practical evidence , before the legislative and liability issues are resolved , so you can doze at the wheel !!!!

Some new images of the leaf at Autoexpress including a new artist rendering. The insideevs claims that the car will be available with 60 kWh battery at release. The front looks just like the new Micra and rest of the car like the current leaf with a facelift. But I have to say that it seems like a decent upgrade. Competition is great.

goz83

Looks like an older civic

cros13

unkel

That doesn't look very aerodynamic to me. And I doubt very much it will have a 60kWh battery, as the article seems to suggest. If it does, its price simply can't be competitive at the bottom end of the EV market.

cros13

unkel wrote: »

That doesn't look very aerodynamic to me.

Ah... 'twil be better with the trash bags off :pac:

unkel

We'll have to see.

If not, it can put those trash bags back on and go straight into the bin :pac:

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

We'll have to see.

If not, it can put those trash bags back on and go straight into the bin :pac:

Skip the bin and go straight to ringsend incinerator.....

listermint

Looks like ****e. Nissan pull the finger out there's money to be made.

No chance of seeing 60kwh on that regardless of which article you read. You can bookmark this post

Gumbo

listermint wrote: »

Looks like ****e. Nissan pull the finger out there's money to be made.

No chance of seeing 60kwh on that regardless of which article you read. You can bookmark this post

In fairness to Nissan, they have publically stated that if they wanted bigger batteries and much bigger range then it can be done no problem. The problem is keeping the car to a price point that makes it affordable.

BoatMad

kceire wrote: »

In fairness to Nissan, they have publically stated that if they wanted bigger batteries and much bigger range then it can be done no problem. The problem is keeping the car to a price point that makes it affordable.

Correct. The product manager was adament that it was s nominal capacity of 40kwh

What will be interesting is to see if Hyundai responds with bigger battery options in the same time scale

listermint

kceire wrote: »

In fairness to Nissan, they have publically stated that if they wanted bigger batteries and much bigger range then it can be done no problem. The problem is keeping the car to a price point that makes it affordable.

Never said it couldn't be done. Said it won't be done.

Gumbo

listermint wrote: »

Never said it couldn't be done. Said it won't be done.

Agree, and rightly so.
It would drive Nissan away from the people that can afford to buy that level of EV.

The installed capacity all depends who they want to compete against: The alsorans or Bolt/M3. I suspect that the Leaf will come with two battery capacities 40/60 kWh which could be build in 2S/3S config using uniform battery modules. In RHD UK/Ireland market there is no immediate long range competition so maybe only 40 kWh will initially be launched until M3 will become available sometime in 2018.

In the other markets not having a model with approx. 300-400 km of EPA range available will mean that the car is behind the competition even before it's released. This combined with Nissan having talked about 60 kWh since 2015 I would be really surprised if was not announced at launch.

liamog

I expect Hyundai to release a 48kWh by the end of 2018.
They've already announced plans for a 200 mile version of the Ioniq for 2018.

Current car has 124 Miles EPA, so at least a 45kWh battery would be needed if all stays the same.

Stallingrad

Maybe some doodlers fantasy, but the new Micra shows Nissan might have found some mojo. We shall see.