2018 Leaf

Old diesel

I think this test by Bjorn is the first time I've seen someone get 29 kw at the FOURTH charge on an L40

A few guys have tried splash and dash but I'm not sure they were still getting 29 kw at the fourth charge

Like I said to someone on twitter last week the big test will be what happens if in 30 degrees ambient you drive 70 mph down the motorway to the first charge.

Battery temperature under pressure - hot day and hard driving.

Previously that would mean a first charge rapidgate and tbh I'd say still will.

Thing to remember is that on this test Bjorn arrived at 1st chathe at 19 degrees.

In summer that could so easily be 28 degrees which I think will push you closer to the dreaded 50 degrees plus battery temps sooner.

I still want to know if the trigger point for reduced power mode is still 56 degrees.

Because for me that reduced power is far more annoying then the main charge speed issue

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

I still want to know if the trigger point for reduced power mode is still 56 degrees.

I’d guess yes for that based on Bjorns test.

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

I think this test by Bjorn is the first time I've seen someone get 29 kw at the FOURTH charge on an L40

And we rejoice and think that's a major improvement. 29kW and only if you baby it...

New EVs coming out now should charge all day and all night at 100kW, preferably 150kW. In all circumstances. In hot weather after driving hard for 12 hours. That's we should aim for.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

And we rejoice and think that's a major improvement. 29kW and only if you baby it...

New EVs coming out now should charge all day and all night at 100kW, preferably 150kW. In all circumstances. In hot weather after driving hard for 12 hours. That's we should aim for.

+1
It's better than it was, but still crap. Considering the tech exists now on the likes of Ioniq that can charge at 70kW all day without issue due to active cooling.

KCross wrote: »

From what I remember...

With fix
- Upto 41ºC full charge rate
- 45ºC = 30kW
- 47ºC = 27kW

Without fix
- 30ºC = 39kW
- 36ºC = 33kW
- 40ºC = 28kW
- 45ºC = 22kW


So they are still protecting the battery above 47ºC but letting you have a full speed 2nd rapid charge which should cover the majority of peoples issues with rapidgate.

It would of course all have been much better if they just stuck a fan in there in the first place!

Would like to know the basis for the change - ie have they used existing owners as a test bed and seen no impact in the degradation in the 30-41 degrees range?

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
It's better than it was, but still crap. Considering the tech exists now on the likes of Ioniq that can charge at 70kW all day without issue due to active cooling.

True, it could be alot better but full charge speed for the first two rapids is all most people will need.
Its more than adequate, particularly for our climate.
I'd still have reservations about how it will behave in hot climates.

ELM327 wrote: »

Would like to know the basis for the change - ie have they used existing owners as a test bed and seen no impact in the degradation in the 30-41 degrees range?

Very unlikely they used existing customers.
Degradation due to high temp would also be a "slow" process. We probably wont know for a year or two and how often will the majority be multiple rapid charging per day anyway to cause 50ºC in the battery?

If you only do one rapid a day (which means you are covering some serious mileage per year) it will have no effect and I think most people will only be using rapids for occasional long journeys.

So, I think, as Bjorn said, what people want is fast charging when they need it and this fix gives them that.

It will be interesting what they implement for the L60. If they make a mess of that there is no hope for Nissan. There is talk its going to be air cooled, not liquid!

Bjorn's edited video here:

Mike9832

Is is confirmed to work for pre October Leaf40?

Haven't seen any older ones with software update?

ELM327

Nissan have (in true nissan style) denied there is any software update.
Let's change #rapidgate to #denialgate

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I wouldn’t put much hope on Nissan to apply this fix on previous L40s if there is a change to the battery case size as I’ve contacted Nissan Ireland twice about a software update in the last few days and they deny any update is available. I’m not going to let it lie though and will keep pushing them as I would request other leaf drivers to do also.

Email customer.service@nissan.ie to see if we can push for this asap.

This is what I received from Nissan.

“Dear Mr Smyth,

As previously advised there are no software updates available for the Nissan Leaf to increase the rapid charge time after multiple successive quick charges.

When doing one or two successive quick charging (50kW) procedures, the 2018 Nissan LEAF will typically take 40-60 mins to charge from 20% to 80%. The LEAF has charging safeguards to protect the battery during repeated fast charging sessions in a short period of time. The time taken for additional quick charging (3+ successive procedures) can take longer if the battery temperature activates the battery safeguarding technology.

Hope to have informed you sufficiently.

Yours Sincerely,
Nissan Ireland Aftersales Team“

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Is is confirmed to work for pre October Leaf40?

Not yet tried. Should be some coming in for their first service in the next few week so I’m sure we’ll start hearing soon whether Nissan are allowing it to be added to existing cars.

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

True, it could be alot better but full charge speed for the first two rapids is all most people will need.
Its more than adequate, particularly for our climate.
I'd still have reservations about how it will behave in hot climates.






Very unlikely they used existing customers.
Degradation due to high temp would also be a "slow" process. We probably wont know for a year or two and how often will the majority be multiple rapid charging per day anyway to cause 50ºC in the battery?

If you only do one rapid a day (which means you are covering some serious mileage per year) it will have no effect and I think most people will only be using rapids for occasional long journeys.

So, I think, as Bjorn said, what people want is fast charging when they need it and this fix gives them that.

It will be interesting what they implement for the L60. If they make a mess of that there is no hope for Nissan. There is talk its going to be air cooled, not liquid!

Bjorn's edited video here:

Why did they not look at Renault thinking on battery cooling for the L40 in the first place given that Renault and themselves are the one outfit essentially.

Like they will use a Renault diesel engine in a Quasqui - so why not use Renault solutions in a Leaf (cooling wise)

KCross

Who knows!
This u turn to patch the L40 shows they have seriously misjudged the market. Hopefully they’ve learned what people need.

Sometimes I think Nissan have designed the Leaf with local, low speed Japanese customers in mind and thinking that translates to the rest of the world.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Sometimes I think Nissan have designed the Leaf with local, low speed Japanese customers in mind

That's an interesting thought. Carlos Ghosn had been heading the alliance for a long time at that stage and he was the big force behind the development of the Leaf, with global sales in mind. And Renault (or European influences) are the main force in the alliance, the Japanese play second fiddle

Initial production of the Leaf was in Japan, but very soon after there were more of them made in the US than in Europe + Japan together

So I guess based on that, I think we can dismiss the idea the Leaf was designed for the Japanese market?

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

Who knows!
This u turn to patch the L40 shows they have seriously misjudged the market. Hopefully they’ve learned what people need.

Sometimes I think Nissan have designed the Leaf with local, low speed Japanese customers in mind and thinking that translates to the rest of the world.

The mess up was/is most likely a "most drivers do under x amount of miles a day acoording to our research" one.

Can't rule out the Japanese thing either but the miles per day calculation seems more plausible imo.

Ironically designing for local conditions may well be why the Zoe had good cooling even in 22 kwh form given that France can get very toasty ambient Temps in sunmer.

Edit - if Nissan worked from historical data - they have failed to allow for users of the bigger battery pack seeking to do longer journeys.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That's an interesting thought. Carlos Ghosn had been heading the alliance for a long time at that stage and he was the big force behind the development of the Leaf, with global sales in mind. And Renault (or European influences) are the main force in the alliance, the Japanese play second fiddle

Initial production of the Leaf was in Japan, but very soon after there were more of them made in the US than in Europe + Japan together

So I guess based on that, I think we can dismiss the idea the Leaf was designed for the Japanese market?

Well, the Leaf was designed in Japan (presumably?) and that design is still in play today in the drivetrain. AFAIK its the very same motor in the L24 and L40 just that they have upped its output. Alot of other non-EV parts in the L40 are identical to the L24 so its reasonable to say the L40 is really a 2010 design from Japan.

So I dont think it matters where the majority of the sales are.... its where the design was done.

The reason why I mention local Japan conditions is that they have, generally, much slower speed limits and the Leaf is certainly designed with lower speed in mind.... <100km/h is its sweet spot and Nissan have designed the drivetrain (specifically the motor windings) for that... hence why its not as good as the Ioniq at 120km/h.

If you were a German automaker you wouldnt be designing for <100km/h.

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

The mess up was/is most likely a "most drivers do under x amount of miles a day acoording to our research" one.

Can't rule out the Japanese thing either but the miles per day calculation seems more plausible imo.

Thats what I mean. In Japan they drive slower and not as far as parts of the US and Europe and they've designed around that.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Well, the Leaf was designed in Japan (presumably?)

Presumably.

My point is though that Ghosn would have had a heavy hand in overlooking the process. He is the visionary - back in the mid 00s saw that all cars would go EV. Because they just had to be zero emissions with the upcoming explosion of car ownership in third world countries. I doubt Ghosn would have had any time for design arguments in favour of the Japanese market. I'd say the way the Leaf ended up was just a product of the time. Not as aerodynamic as could have been and EV drivetrains were just not mass produced at the time, so couldn't possibly be as efficient as they have become today

Maybe someone knows more of the intricacies here. I see cros13 is posting today!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Presumably.

My point is though that Ghosn would have had a heavy hand in overlooking the process. He is the visionary - back in the mid 00s saw that all cars would go EV. Because they just had to be zero emissions with the upcoming explosion of car ownership in third world countries. I doubt Ghosn would have had any time for design arguments in favour of the Japanese market. I'd say the way the Leaf ended up was just a product of the time. Not as aerodynamic as could have been and EV drivetrains were just not mass produced at the time, so couldn't possibly be as efficient as they have become today

Maybe someone knows more of the intricacies here. I see cros13 is posting today!

Carlos also oversaw rapidgate so I’m not buying into the Ghosn wouldn’t have allowed it argument!!

McGiver

unkel wrote:

5. Cost price difference - EVs are already pretty much on a par with ICE cars because of the €10k subsidy. I paid €25k on the road for my high spec family sized EV two years ago. And of course fuel costs 80-90% less than ICE, tax is cheapest, almost zero maintenance, up to 75% discount on tolls, etc.

Hang on - 10k subsidy? Have they doubled it in this budget? I've been calling for that but I thought that this year's budget was quite disappointing re EV transition subsidies.

slave1

He includes the €5k VRT exemption in the €10k subsidy quoted

kennethsmyth

Just received this back from Nissan Irelan

(apologies Nissan I was a bit overbearing in my response to original feedback to whether there was an update due - however it got results!)

"
Nissan Ireland (Nissan Ireland)

Jan 11, 11:46 GMT

Dear Mr Smyth,

Please accept our apologies for the delay in replying to your email.

We have been investigating the matter further with Nissan Europe and have just been advised that there is a software update now available for the ZE1 Nissan Leaf. We will advise your Nissan dealer accordingly of this update and they will contact you directly to make arrangements for the software in your Leaf to be updated.

We hope the above information meets with your approval.

Assuring you of our best attention at all times.

Yours sincerely,
Nissan Ireland Aftersales Team"

So it looks like this is going to happen, yippee, I don't fast charge in a row that many times but when I do I need as much as I can get in the shortest time.

My fully loaded journey to Cork with roofrack etc looks like will not have as bad charging on charge number 3 (estimate at 100km with bikes on roof at present is 235 wh/km - but still testing)

Hope this is of help:D

unkel

That's great news for L40 owners. Looks like the update is available for all users and it will (hopefully) shortly be issued as an official recall. Thanks for sharing kennethsmyth!

slave1

It's 2019 though, that/any software update should be available OTA rather than dragging into a dealer

ethernet

slave1 wrote: »

It's 2019 though, that/any software update should be available OTA rather than dragging into a dealer

Agreed. Who else does OTA updates apart from Tesla?

catharsis

ethernet wrote: »

Agreed. Who else does OTA updates apart from Tesla?

both Audi and Jaguar have confirmed OTA updates for iPace and ETron respectively. No idea about any others....

unkel

Not Hyundai. The cars don't even have built in sims. You can update the software yourself though, but you'll probably invalidate the warranty

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Not Hyundai. The cars don't even have built in sims. You can update the software yourself though, but you'll probably invalidate the warranty

There's no record kept of software updates. No dealer will know when and how your car was updated, therefore no warranty issues.

unkel

What if you brick it though?

I update firmware in all sorts of equipment nearly on a daily basis and have done for decades. But with my €25k Ioniq, I'd rather go to the dealer and have them do it for free under warranty

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

What if you brick it though?

I update firmware in all sorts of equipment nearly on a daily basis and have done for decades. But with my €25k Ioniq, I'd rather go to the dealer and have them do it for free under warranty

I'll carry this on in the Ioniq thread. You know how sensitive some people are. :P

kennethsmyth

I'm now booked into Nissan to get the software update next thursday, I'll keep a screenshot of all the codes on the centre screen along with screenshots of ecu codes from leafspy prior and after the update.

Won't be able to test straight away but will try as soon as possible.

ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I'm now booked into Nissan to get the software update next thursday, I'll keep a screenshot of all the codes on the centre screen along with screenshots of ecu codes from leafspy prior and after the update.

Won't be able to test straight away but will try as soon as possible.

A photo before and after of the diagnostic screen hidden menu would be brilliant, as you could see exactly what was updated!

(Bjorn did a video recently on how to access this in an L40)

Soarer

Don't know if Bjorn did a dedicated video to access the hidden menu, but it's 13 minutes in on this one.