2018 Leaf

babybuilder

Met a fellow eV enthusiastic at a rapid charger yesterday, a fine chap driving an Ioniq. Both exhibited mutual admiration and respect towards each other s cars. Humble appreciation of the qualities of the L40 and Ioniq. ðŸ˜

niall_eidw

I'll be an owner in the nest few days ( I can say days now!! ). Wonder will I have this Rapidgate fix. Will keep you posted.

catharsis

niall_eidw wrote: »

I'll be an owner in the nest few days ( I can say days now!! ). Wonder will I have this Rapidgate fix. Will keep you posted.

Anyone happen to know how many L40s Nissan Ireland sold in 2018?
(also was there a live import market from the UK for L40s)

Just like to get some real numbers ...

unkel

786

Linky


That includes second hand imports and includes both the new and the old model. I'm not sure if you can find anywhere online the actual new model Leafs sold through Irish dealers. Maybe ask Nissan

Casati

unkel wrote: »

786

Linky


That includes second hand imports and includes both the new and the old model. I'm not sure if you can find anywhere online the actual new model Leafs sold through Irish dealers. Maybe ask Nissan

Looks like no real competition against the Leaf from a sales perspective, especially with 182 reg

Is the Ioniq basically gone? Only 12 sold since June? V risky buying one over a Leaf if sales are so tiny isn’t it, you don’t want to be driving such a bad seller

September1

Casati wrote: »

Is the Ioniq basically gone? Only 12 sold since June? V risky buying one over a Leaf if sales are so tiny isn’t it, you don’t want to be driving such a bad seller

I think this is supply problem by Hyundai, they might have redirected limited resources to manufacturing Kona.

Old diesel

Casati wrote: »

Looks like no real competition against the Leaf from a sales perspective, especially with 182 reg

Is the Ioniq basically gone? Only 12 sold since June? V risky buying one over a Leaf if sales are so tiny isn’t it, you don’t want to be driving such a bad seller

People have bought 191 Ioniqs on here afaik as Hyundai have bought in supply recently.

Supply from the factory has been the issue rather then people not wanting to buy.

ELM327

Casati wrote: »

Looks like no real competition against the Leaf from a sales perspective, especially with 182 reg

Is the Ioniq basically gone? Only 12 sold since June? V risky buying one over a Leaf if sales are so tiny isn’t it, you don’t want to be driving such a bad seller

LOL


Resale values do not tally with this
It's a supply constraint not a demand constraint.

Casati

ELM327 wrote: »

LOL


Resale values do not tally with this
It's a supply constraint not a demand constraint.

Why do they offer the car for sale if they don’t have any stock, it’s just going to annoy potential customers surely?

I still wouldn’t like to buy such a low volume seller, as good as the car might be.

unkel

Casati wrote: »

Is the Ioniq basically gone? Only 12 sold since June? V risky buying one over a Leaf if sales are so tiny isn’t it, you don’t want to be driving such a bad seller

LOL, why would you not want to drive a car that has only sold in small numbers because of lack of supply?

Still a Hyundai (most reliable car maker) and still has a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty (and 8 years on the battery). Also probably the slowest depreciating car of all mainstream cars sold in Ireland

Leroy42

The more I read about EV, the more I think the best course of action is to wait.

Lack of supply, rapidgate, lack of knowledge about battery life (as in what happens at EOL, costs of replacement, cost of disposal etc), lack of charging points, cost price differences.

It all seems to me that it is very much still a niche product. Great for those that want to be first on board, have the money, or it suits them personally, but in terms of the average person it is simply a solution that is not yet fully ready.

Of course I understand that it can only get up to that point by being real world tested and as such it must be in the market, but from my POV, I think that EU, and Ireland in particular will be under clear pressure, will start to move towards EV technology in the mid-term (5 years) and at that point petrol/diesel cars will start to be phased out. For that to happen a massive increase in charging points, VRT rebates etc will be required. Also, there is no doubt that the technology will continue to get better with each version, as production numbers grow prices will fall.

It strikes me as not the right time to jump into the pond.

BTW, I am not having a go at EV, EV owners or anything like that. This is simply my opinion of the current state of play (which may well be entirely based on incorrect assumptions or forecasts) and as such I am open to correction.

irishgrover

Leroy42 wrote: »

The more I read about EV, the more I think the best course of action is to wait.....

I think it vey much depends on your personal needs.... you just need to do a lot of research and see what (if any) car is best for you.
Most modern EVs are great for people who do less that 150km per day.
I've done 30K km since April and for me it's a no brainer. I've saving a bigger sum of money on fuel then I'm loosing on depreciation. This is a very unusal fiscal situation.
There will always be a better car around the corner. That is the nature of technology and it's more pronounced in EV's than non EV's.

Shefwedfan

Casati wrote: »

Why do they offer the car for sale if they don’t have any stock, it’s just going to annoy potential customers surely?

I still wouldn’t like to buy such a low volume seller, as good as the car might be.

Don’t look at the eGolf so

unkel

Leroy42 wrote: »

The more I read about EV, the more I think the best course of action is to wait.

A lot of EV owners are very happy with their car which costs them almost nothing to run and which makes a huge benefit to the environment we live in. Depends largely on your use case if it suits you. Put up a thread and we will advise (honestly)!

Leroy42 wrote: »

Lack of supply, rapidgate, lack of knowledge about battery life (as in what happens at EOL, costs of replacement, cost of disposal etc), lack of charging points, cost price differences.

1. Lack of supply - Leaf is freely available and so is the i3. Ioniq, Kona and eGolf are not

2. Rapidgate - looks like a software update will fix this (is tolerating higher temps)

3. EOL - EV depreciates less than other cars and will have significant value at EOL after say 15 years because the batteries will have another 15 years of life left as home / grid storage

4. Lack of charging points. A serious issue. We should see a lot of improvement this year with the government subsidy for the ESB chargers and the development of private network Ionity. Also home chargers are installed free of charge under the €600 subsidy scheme

5. Cost price difference - EVs are already pretty much on a par with ICE cars because of the €10k subsidy. I paid €25k on the road for my high spec family sized EV two years ago. And of course fuel costs 80-90% less than ICE, tax is cheapest, almost zero maintenance, up to 75% discount on tolls, etc.

6. Battery life / cost of replacement - all EVs now have 8 year battery warranties. By the time that is up, it will be cheap enough to have your battery refurbished or individual cells replaced. Several DIY youtube vids online already. I'll probably do a DIY job on mine in 6 years time if needs be

Shefwedfan

I think it should be pointed out the market will level out now in terms of battery and range

Most supplier will have a 4X and a 6X car available, Hyundai/Kia is 39 and 64. All other manufacturers are going to hit that battery size and stay. Changing battery sizes is not good for business and those battery ranges seem to suit the majority of drivers.

The next battery will be 2025 when solid state is available. Well planned according to VW

So if you buy a 64kWh today in 5 years time you will be walking into the same dealer with 64kWh still as the main option

This will bring a level of stability to electric cars which users want

In regards to buying now or not. Depends, are you planning on brand new or second hand? If second hand no reason not to buy now before brexit potentially kills the import business, if it does your second hand electric will go up in value because Ireland on its own doesn’t have supply

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The next battery will be 2025 when solid state is available. Well planned according to VW

I would bet a large amount of money on there being no 251 reg VW car with a solid state battery

Old diesel

Leroy42 wrote: »

The more I read about EV, the more I think the best course of action is to wait.

Lack of supply, rapidgate, lack of knowledge about battery life (as in what happens at EOL, costs of replacement, cost of disposal etc), lack of charging points, cost price differences.

It all seems to me that it is very much still a niche product. Great for those that want to be first on board, have the money, or it suits them personally, but in terms of the average person it is simply a solution that is not yet fully ready.

Of course I understand that it can only get up to that point by being real world tested and as such it must be in the market, but from my POV, I think that EU, and Ireland in particular will be under clear pressure, will start to move towards EV technology in the mid-term (5 years) and at that point petrol/diesel cars will start to be phased out. For that to happen a massive increase in charging points, VRT rebates etc will be required. Also, there is no doubt that the technology will continue to get better with each version, as production numbers grow prices will fall.

It strikes me as not the right time to jump into the pond.

BTW, I am not having a go at EV, EV owners or anything like that. This is simply my opinion of the current state of play (which may well be entirely based on incorrect assumptions or forecasts) and as such I am open to correction.

1) end of life - well old Nissan Leaf batteries are currently powering stadium lights in Holland I understand. The battery packs can often also be re celled - when a battery pack "fails" it's often because some cells have gone. Total failure is rare - the norm is that you lose range as the battery loses capacity. That's why you can use them for other things.

2) lack of charge points is certainly an issue - I blame short sighted government policy for this. The reality in the future is that any place you can park a car is a potential charge point with an EV. The tech and solutions is there but the policy makers have not caught up yet. For me Dundee in Scotland appears to be a leader in showing what can be done with EV charging. It's not an issue caused by technology failings although obviously technology will continue to improve.

3) battery cost - yes to many ICE drivers it's a worry. For me I just look at what diesels cost to repair and shrug my shoulders. A new battery pack might be 5 k. What's a brand new diesel engine costing??????. Of course if you can change individual bad cells rather then a whole pack that's a cost game changer. Again the pack rarely fails totally. Unlike a diesel which can go from running well to totally wrecked in a few seconds.

4) Rapidgate - it's an issue on ONE EV. It's a potential reason to avoid THAT EV. But instead you choose another EV that doesn't have it - if rapidgate is a problem for your usage. Mazda diesels have a poor reputation but that wouldnt stop you looking at an EA 288 2.0 tdi* VW.

5) supply - if I want a particular car I wait for it. You can frequently pick whatever car it is (let's say a Hyundai Ioniq) from the 2nd hand market.

*the EA288 replaced the EA 189 dieselgater

Edit I've no idea how the thumbs down emoji happened

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

I would bet a large amount of money on there being no 251 reg VW car with a solid state battery

100% but it be announced....well if they have to it will be, if they can keep flogging a dead horse they will

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

1. Lack of supply - Leaf is freely available and so is the i3. Ioniq, Kona and eGolf are not

Ia the Kona that hard to find though? Has the backlash over the paddy spec slowed it down, hence the rumours that a better spec will arrive later? I've heard that Hyundai Letterkenny have 2 in stock.

unkel wrote: »

2. Rapidgate - looks like a software update will fix this (is tolerating higher temps)

Is that a fix, or a temporary patch? If they engineered rapidgate as a solution to worryingly high battery temperatures, won't allowing those same temperatures to continue unhindered lead to higher degradation?

Old diesel

Thanks

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ia the Kona that hard to find though? Has the backlash over the paddy spec slowed it down, hence the rumours that a better spec will arrive later? I've heard that Hyundai Letterkenny have 2 in stock.



Is that a fix, or a temporary patch? If they engineered rapidgate as a solution to worryingly high battery temperatures, won't allowing those same temperatures to continue unhindered lead to higher degradation?

On the rapidgate "fix"

The original L40 software throttled back the power of the car - ie acceleration - when the battery temp hits 56 degrees on Leafspy.

My guess is that the new software will drive up battery temp to 56 degrees faster.

So have Nissan increased the trigger point of when the car goes into reduced power from 56 degrees to a higher.

Also when is the new trigger point for rapidgate - I would say rapidgate is still there - you just get to drive further before it hits.

My main concern is where reduced acceleration power kicks in. For me that reduced power is actually much more annoying then the 22 kw charging a horrible nasty feature imo.

In fact if the trigger point for reduced power is still 56 degrees on the new software - I'd actually rather stay with the old software.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Is that a fix, or a temporary patch? If they engineered rapidgate as a solution to worryingly high battery temperatures, won't allowing those same temperatures to continue unhindered lead to higher degradation?

Yup. It's more a "it'll be grand" fix. Worrying in a way for a battery that already seems to degrade more than any other EV battery currently on the market. But that will be Nissan's problem as the battery has an 8 year warranty.

ELM327

I wonder if the software fix coincided with the decision to not sell off the battery maker and keep it in house, reducing warranty costs!!

bp_me

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ia the Kona that hard to find though? Has the backlash over the paddy spec slowed it down, hence the rumours that a better spec will arrive later? I've heard that Hyundai Letterkenny have 2 in stock.

A work colleague has a gotten a price for kona ev with no issue. That was for a from stock car. PCP price was... ambitious.

Gile_na_gile

bp_me wrote: »

A work colleague has a gotten a price for kona ev with no issue. That was for a from stock car. PCP price was... ambitious.

Dealer told me last week there were about two in country at moment, but new stock dies trickle in. Took the demo for a spin, first time driving an EV.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I would bet a large amount of money on there being no 251 reg VW car with a solid state battery

So would I

No new battery is on the horizon

Batteries are a very mature technology now and will be no massive leap in the next few years anyway

Its phasing out rare earth materials and getting to €50/kWh by 2025 that will be the target

samih

The Kona EV is very spendy when you can directly compare to a petrol model. Something close to 40 k makes the PCP and HP monthly rates expensive. Even a 30k car requires a hefty deposit for a sane monthly figure.

As of the proposed rapidgate fix: The original parameters are unnecessarily restrictive between 30 and 45 degrees while still allowing the battery temperature to soar to red on the second or third charge of the day. The modified software appear to rely more on the actual battery temperature during the charge instead of slowing down the rate of charge artificially based on the initial temperature. Once the temperature gets to over 50 during a charge I'm sure there are measures to avoid going to red. But it will allow a quick second topup from say 10 percent to 50 percent or more allowing L40 drivers to get a good topup quickly but vacate the charger after the rate goes down (and probably to even lower rate as with the current rapidgate) instead of having a slow rate from the start making everybody behind them to wait for hours.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I wonder if the software fix coincided with the decision to not sell off the battery maker and keep it in house, reducing warranty costs!!

They are still selling, the first company pulled out, the new buyer is Envision Energy (Chinese) and is expected to finish the purchase in March.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

They are still selling, the first company pulled out, the new buyer is Envision Energy (Chinese) and is expected to finish the purchase in March.

The CEO of Envision reckons they can get to €50/KWh in 5 years and €100/kWh next year

unkel

samih wrote: »

it will allow a quick second topup from say 10 percent to 50 percent or more allowing L40 drivers to get a good topup quickly but vacate the charger after the rate goes down

If only they did. There seems to be a new generation of EV owners out there, who are oblivious to charging etiquette (unlike yourself of course and the vast majority of people posting here)

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

getting to €50/kWh by 2025 that will be the target

That and mass manufacturing would mean a budget say 45kWh EV will be cheaper to make than an ICE even if all incentives are cancelled

If they can produce enough of them, the whole world will go EV within years. Some people still buying brand new diesels will be very sorry.