2018 Leaf

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

You forgot price. The L62 is alot more expensive than an L40 unlike your PS4 analogy. Thats a big differentiation that will mean that L40 wont become obsolete anytime soon as a result of L62 coming out.

Ps4 will always drop in price, just like EVs

I think L40 will become obsolete once mass production and battery costs drop imo

60kWh will be the standard for family cars

40kWh will be for little city cars like Citigo etc

unkel

No EV will become obsolete any time soon. There's looking for crazy money like GBP6k for a crappy 2010 iMIEVs on Autotrader at the moment.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

No EV will become obsolete any time soon. There's looking for crazy money like GBP6k for a crappy 2010 iMIEVs on Autotrader at the moment.

Discontinued I mean, obsolete is the wrong term

Of course Leaf will go forever, incredibly reliable car

Will Nissan be making 40kWh Leafs in 2021

Don't think so myself, think 60kWh will be the min for a car that size and stabilise at that

24kWh, 30kWh, 40kWh will all have fate imo, few short years on market and discontinued

Ioniq will be the same soon, 28kWh will be discontinued

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Ps4 will always drop in price, just like EVs

I think L40 will become obsolete once mass production and battery costs drop imo

60kWh will be the standard for family cars

40kWh will be for little city cars like Citigo etc

All cars have depreciation. Its a consumable item so nothing new there(EV or ICE). What I'm trying to counter here is the usual quote that gets dropped in... "it will depreciate like a stone when the new model comes out".

It wont happen in the L40 case as the L62 is €5k+ more than the L40.

People will buy the car that suits their needs. The L40 is fine for some so they buy that. Others need the range and they will stump up for the L62.

Similar to buying an ICE.... some people are happy with a 1L petrol, some need a 2l diesel... it doesnt mean that 1l petrols disappear.


At some future point, lets say 15yrs+ time, when we have a battery breakthrough and 60kWh can be put into a Citigo without making it 1.5t in weight and still at €11k you might have a point... but in reality we have no sight of that point in time yet. Li-ion is where its at. We've a long way to go from €38k Kona EV's to €11k Citigo's with the same battery capacity!

You're making it sound like its just around the corner.

unkel

Discontinued is an irrelevant term. Of course every car will be discontinued at some point. I bet KCross is right though, L40 and L62 will be continued to be sold side by side with the latter commanding a hefty premium. And the former not only not discontinued, but certainly also not obsolete.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Similar to buying an ICE.... some people are happy with a 1L petrol, some need a 2l diesel... it doesnt mean that 1l petrols disappear.


At some future point, lets say 15yrs+ time, when we have a battery breakthrough and 60kWh can be put into a Citigo without making it 1.5t in weight and still at €11k you might have a point... but in reality we have no sight of that point in time yet. Li-ion is where its at. We've a long way to go from €38k Kona EV's to €11k Citigo's with the same battery capacity!

You're making it sound like its just around the corner.

1ltr petrols eg small battery 30kWh have dissappeared, they don't sell them new anymore in Leafs case

I never said Citigo would get 64kWh, 40kWh willl be enough for them

Won't take 15 years either

Could be done very soon if they are at €100/kWh, 90% of parts are shared with ICE, it's just the battery and electric motors/inverters/controllers are cheap

Dacia could do a 15k 40kWh EV if they wanted to

Its pretty obvious big auto are fleecing customers, Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Battery production isn't the problem either, Hyundai are lieing when they are saying they can't get enough batteries

Likes of LG can make enough batteries but likes of Hyundai wont order them, don't want to sell EVs in mass

https://pushevs.com/2019/01/28/electric-car-boom-in-europe-starts-this-year/#comments

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

1ltr petrols eg small battery 30kWh have dissappeared, they don't sell them new anymore in Leafs case

I never said Citigo would get 64kWh, 40kWh willl be enough for them

Won't take 15 years either

Could be done very soon if they are at €100/kWh, 90% of parts are shared with ICE, it's just the battery and electric motors/inverters/controllers are cheap

Dacia could do a 15k 40kWh EV if they wanted to

Its pretty obvious big auto are fleecing customers, Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Battery production isn't the problem either, Hyundai are lieing when they are saying they can't get enough batteries

Likes of LG can make enough batteries but likes of Hyundai wont order them, don't want to sell EVs in mass

https://pushevs.com/2019/01/28/electric-car-boom-in-europe-starts-this-year/#comments

The auto industry don't want to sell a lot of EVs in Europe before the emissions standards in 2020 are reset.
They also don't want to hit the 200k threshold in the US
They also make less money and less downstream money on EVs so they don't have interest in selling EVs beyond compliance cars.


Except Tesla of course, who are not a car company anyway.

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

The auto industry don't want to sell a lot of EVs in Europe before the emissions standards in 2020 are reset.
They also don't want to hit the 200k threshold in the US
They also make less money and less downstream money on EVs so they don't have interest in selling EVs beyond compliance cars.


Except Tesla of course, who are not a car company anyway.

All true

You can't blame them either, they are in the business of making money

I like Toyotas honest approach, they have no interest making them and not shy in admitting it

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

1ltr petrols eg small battery 30kWh have dissappeared, they don't sell them new anymore in Leafs case

I never said Citigo would get 64kWh, 40kWh willl be enough for them

Won't take 15 years either

Maybe it wont take 15yrs. But a battery breakthrough is required to stick a 40kWh into a Citigo and deliver it for €12k. Do you see that breakthrough around the corner... I dont. Loads of annoucements but nothing near production.

Current 40kWh drivetrain (inc battery) is a good 50%+ of the weight of a Citigo, not to mind the physical size of it. Thats not going to work without significant improvement in energy density.

The improvements in battery pack costs, which Tesla are leading, are in economies of scale at this stage. The energy density improvements are hard won.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Could be done very soon if they are at €100/kWh, 90% of parts are shared with ICE, it's just the battery and electric motors/inverters/controllers are cheap

As said above, there's more to it than price. Weight and Size is a factor at the end of the market you are talking about.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Its pretty obvious big auto are fleecing customers, Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Thats true, unfortunately.

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Where on earth did you pluck that figure of 48k from?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Where on earth did you pluck that figure of 48k from?

Price before grants.
38k + 1k residual VRT + 10k VRT+SEAI

Soarer

Is it just me, or does it seem like we've been through this discussion countless times before...in various different guises?

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Price before grants.
38k + 1k residual VRT + 10k VRT+SEAI

So that includes 6k VRT. And about 8k VAT. We're talking 34k before taxes and incentives is the price to the customer, not 48k

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

So that includes 6k VRT. And about 8k VAT. We're talking 34k before taxes and incentives is the price to the customer, not 48k

You better get around to Hyundai dealers and explain then lol :pac:

Cause i have been to two of them when I test drove it and they both said 48k - 10k grants, 38k all in

https://www.murphygunn.com/web/2019-Kona-Electric/

The 2019 Kona Electric that’s just about to hit the European market looks like an ideal city car for the new generation of ecologically aware car owners. It’s an electric crossover with a flowing, straightforward and simplistic design that doesn’t scream ‘zero emission car’, and it offers plenty of boot space for your groceries. The base price for this EV in our dealership starts from €48,999, but after the VRT Reduction of €5,000 and SEAI grant of €5,000, the price is reduced to €38,999

unkel

Yeah but you made the leap to 48k (not) being the production cost of the Kona EV. You seemed to have forgotten the 14k tax...

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Maybe it wont take 15yrs. But a battery breakthrough is required to stick a 40kWh into a Citigo and deliver it for €12k. Do you see that breakthrough around the corner... I dont. Loads of annoucements but nothing near production.

Current 40kWh drivetrain (inc battery) is a good 50%+ of the weight of a Citigo, not to mind the physical size of it. Thats not going to work without significant improvement in energy density.

The improvements in battery pack costs, which Tesla are leading, are in economies of scale at this stage. The energy density improvements are hard won.




As said above, there's more to it than price. Weight and Size is a factor at the end of the market you are talking about.




Thats true, unfortunately.

Won't be any battery breakthrough soon, batteries are well understood tech now and it's not really needed, all about price per kWh

We've been hearing about breakthroughs for years.

Chinese will be at €50/kWh in a few years, batteries will be a commodity and no better than them to ramp it up

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/07/envision-energy-says-ev-battery-cell-costs-will-fall-below-50-kwh-by-2025/

Might not be 12k for a Citigo, but I am 100% sure Dacia could do a 40kWh EV for 15k next year if they were serious about EV's especially with the grants we have here

50% of the cost of the first generation Leaf was battery alone , that battery cost now is now more like 15-20%

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Yeah but you made the leap to 48k (not) being the production cost of the Kona EV. You seemed to have forgotten the 14k tax...

Doesn't affect me or you

Without incentives its 48k, ICE Kona is 24k

That's all that matter's

ewj1978

premium ICE kona is not 24k

Mike9832

ewj1978 wrote: »

premium ICE kona is not 24k

Oh yes it is

I was offered a 125bhp Kona Premium for 24k with my old 04 diesel, if I was interested would have easily got it down to 23k or under.

Salesman clearly explained the Kona EV was 48k, minus grants bring it to 38k.

Wouldn't even entertain taking in my 04 diesel and when I asked about Ioniq he would give scrappage, but said he had no idea when to expect delivery, might be June, had no idea

cloughy

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect.

Would like o get the 40kw version (but expensive at the moment) but whats the increase in range would it be 30% more than the 30kw,

Also charging speed, is it the 6.6 that I should be looking for to allow faster charging, and if so and have a home charging point how log does it take to get from 10% to full.

I would prefer the Ioniq, due to range and the boot seems bigger than the Leaf, but they are in short supply and maintaining a very high price even for a 2017/2018 car, whereas Leaf 2016/2017 is cheaper and more readily available.

Also is the speedo and cruse control able to be switched from Miles to KM is I import the car, as this was possible with my current car to change the display digitally from ML to KM.

sorry for all the questions, just doing research at the moment as to what to replace my existing ICE car with.

Thanks in advance,

Gumbo

cloughy wrote: »

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect.

Would like o get the 40kw version (but expensive at the moment) but whats the increase in range would it be 30% more than the 30kw,

Also charging speed, is it the 6.6 that I should be looking for to allow faster charging, and if so and have a home charging point how log does it take to get from 10% to full.

I would prefer the Ioniq, due to range and the boot seems bigger than the Leaf, but they are in short supply and maintaining a very high price even for a 2017/2018 car, whereas Leaf 2016/2017 is cheaper and more readily available.

Also is the speedo and cruse control able to be switched from Miles to KM is I import the car, as this was possible with my current car to change the display digitally from ML to KM.

sorry for all the questions, just doing research at the moment as to what to replace my existing ICE car with.

Thanks in advance,

If you search, there’s loads of these questions.
Expect 160-180km and budget for that.
Realistically once you get used to the car you can get more, UK to 209km with very light foot driving.

Motorway will be reduced. Budget 1.5km per 1% at 100kmph and adjust from there.

ewj1978

Mike9832 wrote: »

Oh yes it is

I was offered a 125bhp Kona Premium for 24k with my old 04 diesel, if I was interested would have easily got it down to 23k or under.

Salesman clearly explained the Kona EV was 48k, minus grants bring it to 38k.

Wouldn't even entertain taking in my 04 diesel and when I asked about Ioniq he would give scrappage, but said he had no idea when to expect delivery, might be June, had no idea

CO2 Tax Price
Kona Premium 125 €270 €27,645
Kona Premium 4WD 1.6 Auto 153 €390 €31,645

The price quoted to you is incorrect.

Soarer

Maybe they gave him scrappage on the diesel?

ewj1978

never thought of that.

ELM327

cloughy wrote: »

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect.

Would like o get the 40kw version (but expensive at the moment) but whats the increase in range would it be 30% more than the 30kw,

Also charging speed, is it the 6.6 that I should be looking for to allow faster charging, and if so and have a home charging point how log does it take to get from 10% to full.

I would prefer the Ioniq, due to range and the boot seems bigger than the Leaf, but they are in short supply and maintaining a very high price even for a 2017/2018 car, whereas Leaf 2016/2017 is cheaper and more readily available.

Also is the speedo and cruse control able to be switched from Miles to KM is I import the car, as this was possible with my current car to change the display digitally from ML to KM.

sorry for all the questions, just doing research at the moment as to what to replace my existing ICE car with.

Thanks in advance,

Not fully, no.
Everything will be in miles with a little KM/H readout below.

slave1

ELM327 wrote: »

Not fully, no.
Everything will be in miles with a little KM/H readout below.

Everything on my L30 import was changed by me in less than a minute and all readings are in kms across the board, no miles anywhere

slave1

cloughy wrote: »

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect,

For city driving the Leaf excels, you should be looking at 180/190kms in Summer and 140/150kms in Winter and that’s with full use of a/c and heating. If you put the boot down then expect less but this is very dependent on your driving style so hard to say exactly...

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Everything on my L30 import was changed by me in less than a minute and all readings are in kms across the board, no miles anywhere

He was asking about the Ioniq.


In a leaf, of course, you can change 2 settings and it's done.

cloughy

thanks all, and it would be the same question on either car imported, as whilst Leaf might be more available here, need to check the prices/spec compared to UK, and if import either would be frustrated if everything was in Miles, my own Prius, the Speedo can be changed to KM but all the trip and Odo are still in miles,

Soarer

cloughy wrote: »

thanks all, and it would be the same question on either car imported, as whilst Leaf might be more available here, need to check the prices/spec compared to UK, and if import either would be frustrated if everything was in Miles, my own Prius, the Speedo can be changed to KM but all the trip and Odo are still in miles,

If you're massively concerned about the readout being in km/h, then the Leaf is the handiest option. It's a preset in the menu.
Think the Ioniq is a bit more fiddly.