2018 Leaf

ELM327

I'm not impressed with a mere 10kWh jump in battery size to the "new model". It should have been 60kWh like the bolt EV.

I believe that new leaf will be outdated within 12 months, when the norm is 40-60kWh already and if they are expecting a 5-6 year life cycle with the leaf2 they are very much mistaken. IMHO. In 5 years 40kWh will be derisory.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not impressed with a mere 10kWh jump in battery size to the "new model". It should have been 60kWh like the bolt EV.

I believe that new leaf will be outdated within 12 months, when the norm is 40-60kWh already and if they are expecting a 5-6 year life cycle with the leaf2 they are very much mistaken. IMHO. In 5 years 40kWh will be derisory.

The issue is price point

I dont think Nissan are foolish enough to beleive they will get the same mofel life from this leaf. The market is completely different today then 2011

The enclosure can take a 60 kWh battery but I suspect on current pricing it's too expensive

Price point issues will be Nissan greatest challenge

Hyundai are not likely to announce a larger battery until 2019 or they would destroy current sales ( and they need to sort out their supply chain )

ELM327

Agreed. Sure we're already globally running fast into a bottleneck when it comes to lithium ion battery supplies, and we've already seen the impact on the Ioniq supply.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Agreed. Sure we're already globally running fast into a bottleneck when it comes to lithium ion battery supplies, and we've already seen the impact on the Ioniq supply.

The major component is actually Nickel

Teslas recent presentation shows there are no supply issues with materials within the next 10 years , the issue is predominantly battery manufacturing capacity not raw materials

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

The major component is actually Nickel

Teslas recent presentation shows there are no supply issues with materials within the next 10 years , the issue is predominantly battery manufacturing capacity not raw materials

Yes I said "lithium ion battery" supply rather than Lithium supply particularly.
We face a bottleneck of supply of batteries for EV, caused by the supply chain and not necessarily the raw component(s)

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes I said "lithium ion battery" supply rather than Lithium supply particularly.
We face a bottleneck of supply of batteries for EV, caused by the supply chain and not necessarily the raw component(s)

Lithium ion major component is Nickel , currently available in abundance , current lithium mining is well capable of supplying demand

The issue is making the battery not its components

This will be solved within 5 years

Ultimately thd EV battery will be a commodity like AA batteries, because once you get above a certain capacity , less and less people care about battery type and size

There's enough Lithium seemingly at Mount Leinster to get one company interested to mine but met as usual by local opposition. They were exploring there last year, what the current status on it is not clear but no doubt the lithium would be given away for half nothing known this country.

A Canadian company who will sell it to a Chinese battery company, if I remember correctly there was a write up in the Nationalist last year, but I don't remember all the details.

Anyway, Nissan's deal with LG Chem has fallen through and they will be keeping their share in AESC, so unfortunately for Nissan there's no chance in hell they will be able to compete with the Bolt for a 60 Kwh and this will seriously hurt them in the U.S and anywhere else the Bolt is sold I bet. In Ireland and the U.K we'll only have the option of a 40 Kwh Leaf or Zoe. Nissan just don;t have the sales to get battery costs down which is part their own fault because the Idiots still only have one EV model and the Micra EV is not sold out of Japan. More models will mean more EV's sold. Nissan are really dragging their heals.

I presume LG is making the Zoe 40 Kwh, they make the 22 Kwh so I do not know why it's as expensive as it is considering the Bold costs 35K at 60 Kwh. So either LG gave GM a cracking deal or they're taking a huge hit on each Bolt sold.

ednwireland

Whens the lithium due to run out ?

KCross

ednwireland wrote: »

Whens the lithium due to run out ?

After the oil.

BoatMad

The U.S. Geological Survey produced a reserves estimate of lithium in early 2015, concluding that the world has enough known reserves for about 365 years of current global production of about 37,000 tons per year (Figure 1).

this is based on current mines and known deposits

currently 1/3 lithium foes into ceramics, 1/3 into batteries

KCross

Some new spy shots mentioned on the UK forum with less camouflage:

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/06/21/2018-nissan-leaf-spied-with-hardly-any-camouflage/

One other thing that I found interesting on a Musk interview about the Model 3 is that he mentioned different motor options(single and dual motor) which are optimised for city and for motorway respectively. The initial Model 3 will be single motor only but dual motor next year.

This got me thinking that, apart from aerodynamics, maybe this is something that the Ioniq has done better than the Leaf hence the ~20% better range. Back in 2010 Nissan might have optimised the Leaf as a city runabout to the detriment of motorway driving and Ioniq have leaned more towards motorway speeds. Hopefully they get the balance right on Leaf II.

This is the Musk interview(skip to 10:00):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axsvbRWXfCQ

I'd actually recommend watching all 4 videos in that series. Good info on everything Tesla.... dates(Model 3 still on track for July), EV truck, Model Y, Solar, autonomy, Gigafactory etc.
e.g. He says the Gigafactory will have more battery output than all other battery factories on the planet combined giving them the best kWh/$. If thats true it shows how far ahead they will be if EV's take off. He really does have a long term view of everything.

who_ru

KCross wrote: »

Some new spy shots mentioned on the UK forum with less camouflage:

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/06/21/2018-nissan-leaf-spied-with-hardly-any-camouflage/

pretty conservative redesign - it's basically a pulsar.

ELM327

who_ru wrote: »

pretty conservative redesign - it's basically a pulsar.

Hopefully it can share most of the components, cost saving will bring the price down.

It's just a facelift. It's far from being a new model. Shame on you Nissan cheap bas*ards.

They should have designed a new model and sold the existing leaf as something else or had their new ev called something else.

It's really shameful that after 2009 since the leafs mule testing that this is the best they could come up with and no new EV models this side of 2020, ok, the Micra, but there is no news of this being sold outside of Japan yet.

So it looks like in a way Nissan will be continuing to sell Leaf I with just a facelift and some poor excuse of automated driving oh and twice the range I suppose the range upgrade will be welcome all the same. I just hope they have better than 50 Kw DC charging or I'll be giving it a miss altogether.

Evd-Burner

Deleted User wrote: »

It's just a facelift. It's far from being a new model. Shame on you Nissan cheap bas*ards.

They should have designed a new model and sold the existing leaf as something else or had their new ev called something else.

It's really shameful that after 2009 since the leafs mule testing that this is the best they could come up with and no new EV models this side of 2020, ok, the Micra, but there is no news of this being sold outside of Japan yet.

So it looks like in a way Nissan will be continuing to sell Leaf I with just a facelift and some poor excuse of automated driving oh and twice the range I suppose the range upgrade will be welcome all the same. I just hope they have better than 50 Kw DC charging or I'll be giving it a miss altogether.

Wait until it's officially released before making to many judgements. It might not be as bad as you think.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

It's just a facelift. It's far from being a new model. Shame on you Nissan cheap bas*ards.

They should have designed a new model and sold the existing leaf as something else or had their new ev called something else.

It's really shameful that after 2009 since the leafs mule testing that this is the best they could come up with and no new EV models this side of 2020, ok, the Micra, but there is no news of this being sold outside of Japan yet.

So it looks like in a way Nissan will be continuing to sell Leaf I with just a facelift and some poor excuse of automated driving oh and twice the range I suppose the range upgrade will be welcome all the same. I just hope they have better than 50 Kw DC charging or I'll be giving it a miss altogether.

For these reasons (amongst others) I will not be considering a leaf for my next EV.
Thanks but no thanks.
If I can't step to a CPO Tesla, I will probably end up with an Ioniq/ZE40 Zoe.

No excuses for lagging so far behind, I expected better from the company that brought us the first mainstream EV of this generation.

KCross

who_ru wrote: »

pretty conservative redesign - it's basically a pulsar.

True. Not an inspiring design at all. A bland car, but ironically that might help its sales as a lot of people don't want the "quirky" look of the current Leaf.

An EV that fits in with all the other cars on the road might actually sell better..... with increased range of course.

Evd-Burner

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Wait until it's officially released before making to many judgements. It might not be as bad as you think.

Well it looks likely from the spy shots. As for battery, yes need to wait but they need to dramatically increase the charging power capability. Or people will be tied to existing fast chargers for much longer. At least the Ioniq can charge at 65 Kw. That makes a big difference.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

True. Not an inspiring design at all. A bland car, but ironically that might help its sales as a lot of people don't want the "quirky" look of the current Leaf.

An EV that fits in with all the other cars on the road might actually sell better..... with increased range of course.

Zoe 40 is fine if you can live with it's size and sluggish power , just make sure you do not get the 75 Hp version and 22 Kw "only" charging. They could have made it CCS compatible. Again, poor decisions. But the 22 Kw AC is fantastic.

unkel

From those shots, it will not have a very good coefficient of drag. I predict that the 40kW Leaf 2 will not have a significantly higher range than a 28kW Ioniq at motorway speeds (real 120km/h)

That's a mistake imho. But I guess we will have to wait for EPA and real life figures to make our judgement. Unless the price is really good (on the road for somewhere in the €26k-€28k range - will that happen?)

KCross

unkel wrote: »

From those shots, it will not have a very good coefficient of drag. I predict that the 40kW Leaf 2 will not have a significantly higher range than a 28kW Ioniq at motorway speeds (real 120km/h)

Its not all Cd though. There will have to be improvements in other areas as well including the motor. See my earlier post about motor optimisation.

Can you quantify "significant" so we can head off the "I told you so" post!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Can you quantify "significant" so we can head off the "I told you so" post!

Sure

I doubt new 40kWh Leaf will have a range of over 200km at 120km/h (real speed) in perfect circumstances (mild, no wind, no rain, no hills) where Ioniq 28kWh can do about 180km (with 40kWh, Ioniq would do almost 260km)

josip

Not sure if ProPilot confirmation has already been posted on the thread.

http://newatlas.com/nissan-leaf-propilot/50171/

KCross

josip wrote: »

Not sure if ProPilot confirmation has already been posted on the thread.

http://newatlas.com/nissan-leaf-propilot/50171/

If there are no preceding vehicles present, it will maintain a preset cruising speed. Should the Leaf start closing in on another vehicle, however, the system will control acceleration and braking in order to maintain a safe distance behind that car.

Thats basically adaptive cruise control, which is no big deal. Lots of cars have that already.

Additionally, as long as lane markers are present on both sides of the road, ProPILOT will control the steering (on straightaways and on curves) in order to keep the Leaf centered in its lane.

Thats everywhere except motorways excluded in this country so!


I won't be interested in paying anything extra for ProPilot if I buy a Leaf II. They need to focus on getting range and price right before this ProPilot stuff.

unkel

That's all standard on all Ioniqs anyway. I'm like Kcross, nice to have, but I wouldn't have paid extra for it.

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

Sure

I doubt new 40kWh Leaf will have a range of over 200km at 120km/h (real speed) in perfect circumstances (mild, no wind, no rain, no hills) where Ioniq 28kWh can do about 180km (with 40kWh, Ioniq would do almost 260km)

But if they're the same money, isn't that enough for people?

I mean, most people who drive evs aren't on the motorway every day. They're doing stop/start driving, rat runs, shopping, school runs, short commutes. If they have to hit the motorway every so often, they're not gonna have a drastic range loss like the current Leaf.
So a new 40kWh (useable) Leaf will blitz the current Ioniq for most people.
Not to mention the current public CP system is geared towards chademo & type 2, which also suits the new Leaf.

From my point of view, with the driving I do, if the new Leaf is 40kWh, has faster charging, and is around the same money as the Ioniq, it'll be the Leaf all day long.

As is always the case with ev ownership, it's what suits.

im having a mad notion whether to buy a 2nd hand i3 or not. I'd like something with more power.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

im having a mad notion whether to buy a 2nd hand i3 or not. I'd like something with more power.

And you complain about the size of the Leaf!?

Yes I know but my partner is thinking of changing her 08 Cee'd estate and I'm trying to convince her to actually spend some money on the next car for a decent one and a decent size , preferably seven seater. So for hauling my ass to work 141 Kms the i3 would be fine and hopefully won't have any buggy after next year or year and half.

It's funny because when I leased the leaf there really wasn't any other ev to think about and now I'm faced with a few possibilities come January.

Soarer

Go balls out and get a secondhand Model S from the UK.