2018 Leaf

grogi

Water John wrote: »

It's the battery weights, specifically, I was asking. Are you saying that they are all the same density and calculate from the battery KWh?

Sorry, didn't get that. Don't think so - different chemistry, different packaging -
different density.

Water John

bp, that's interesting. I think 60kwh will be enough for the vast majority of drivers.

grogi

Water John wrote: »

bp, that's interesting. I think 60kwh will be enough for the vast majority of drivers.

I think 30kWh is already enough for majority of drivers.

If they think so is a different story

Water John

Certainly looking for 300km+ up to now.
Would prefer 400km/250 miles. Easy sell to most people.

bp_me

Water John wrote: »

bp, that's interesting. I think 60kwh will be enough for the vast majority of drivers.

Ah.. more information on the renault pack

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/10/11/details-renault-zoe-ze-40-battery-packs/

Cliff notes:
- 22kW pack - 290kg
- 40kW pack - 315kg

So basically as chemistry and energy density improves we get more kW for same weight. How far that can go I don't know.

If you can charge twice as fast or more then you eliminate the need to carry around a huge battery but a larger battery reduces the dependency on the charging network.

If I take my test drive int eh I3 or Ioniq for example, 23-90% in 25 mins. The I3 14-98% in 50 mins larger battery and replaced 30 Kwh. Charged for 8 mins on the way home anf got home with I think 12%.

Charging to 98% takes a lot longer I could have charged to 90% in about 40 mins but I was having food so was no harm to leave it charging and no one was waiting.

Anyway, if they could get charging a 30-40 Kwh battery down to 20 mins I think that would eliminate a lot of range anxiety but they need a lot more chargers and more powerful ones.

Water John

Suspect it was a tech improvement. The basic battery cells are fairly standard. Most people will want to charge at home by night. That is the need for a 60kwh battery. Less reliance on FCP, even if they get it down, time wise.
Also, a urban driver without home charging, will only need to 'fill' once or twice a week.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

If you can charge twice as fast or more then you eliminate the need to carry around a huge battery but a larger battery reduces the dependency on the charging network.

If I take my test drive int eh I3 or Ioniq for example, 23-90% in 25 mins. The I3 14-98% in 50 mins larger battery and replaced 30 Kwh. Charged for 8 mins on the way home anf got home with I think 12%.

Charging to 98% takes a lot longer I could have charged to 90% in about 40 mins but I was having food so was no harm to leave it charging and no one was waiting.

Anyway, if they could get charging a 30-40 Kwh battery down to 20 mins I think that would eliminate a lot of range anxiety but they need a lot more chargers and more powerful ones.

I might be alone, but for me the range anxiety comes not from the actual range, but from the fact that:
- the charger might be TEMPORARILY out of order
- the charger is occupied and will be for very long time.

I would have an option of driving up-to 20 km down the road to find another DC charger when the one I arrived at is not-available. I would have no issues at all really.

stesaurus

goz83 wrote: »

So how do they work around brake light activation with 1 pedal driving? Do they come on at certain friction levels and/or at full pedal release? As long as there is an option, I don't mind. I like having a brake pedal, so if they took it away, it would be a deal breaker (no pun intended) for me.

Same as the i3. I barely ever touch the brake pedal but the lights are software controlled so come on as I'm slowing based I guess on an algorithm.
My wife was driving behind me one time and said to me I was constantly feathering the brakes . That it was really annoying to be behind. So apologies anyone behind me, it's the software.

Yes, that's why we need a lot more chargers and more range. Having 250-300 kms is far better than having 120, being able to charge 2 + times faster would be great also.

More chargers but we can forget that by the looks of things now.

ABC101

Water John wrote: »

It's the battery weights, specifically, I was asking. Are you saying that they are all the same density and calculate from the battery KWh?

Details are not all exactly comparable. Some manufacturers develop batteries with different chemistry's for different roles. For example in city traffic one type of battery chemistry could be more suitable as it is stop / start and regeneration.

However another chemistry could be more suitable for long distance steady speed motorway driving.

In addition a 60Kwhr battery does not mean you have 60Kw/hr available, there is a limit of which can be taken out, 10-15% seems to be a round about figure, the Leaf 24 Kw/hr is in effect 21 Kw/hr usable.

As battery weights go up, a issue of "weight compounding" becomes apparent, lighter materials such as aluminium have to be changed for mild steel, the chassis has to be stronger+ heavier, which means a heavier and stronger suspension to carry said weight, which means a heavier + more powerful electric motor to accelerate the weight and not to mention, heavier and stronger breaking system to stop such weight. It all starts to work against itself and drags the efficiency of the car down.

I believe the BMW I3 manages to get around this issue by use of carbon fibre components in various areas to reduce the weight where possible.

Tesla has gone for a new battery cell, 2170, which is physically bigger and heavier, but there is a marked increase in the amount of energy it can hold, but again there method can only go so far.

As for the issue of more charge points, I don't think that is going to happen, we have many problems from a shortage in new houses, to hospital beds etc.

If you are relying on the various Govt departments to "Get it together" and introduce more charge points I think you are in for a long wait. Look how long the M50 second bridge took, M50 upgrade and even now it is too small. I was reading a article about a ESB substation upgrade in Laois (I think), even though the ESB had permission to carry out temporary upgrade works the council came out and stopped all work. Because they did not have permission to erect a high structure, even though the higher structure was only temporary, basically a few weeks etc.

Possibly the best solution is to have large hard core rubble surfaced car parks on the outside of each town. IN close proximity to a ESB HV pylon, drop down a few wires, put in a couple of substations, cheaply run the cable under the hard core and have multiple charge points, maybe even have it suspended from above on a gantry system? With space for 100 cars perhaps and a shuttle bus for people to get into the town etc. Portlaoise / Naas might be used as a example. Far cheaper and more effective than digging up streets in Kilkenny / Nenagh at great cost for two or three poxy charge points. We need to stop pussying around and start thinking BIG.

EV adoption could become a lot more faster if you knew outside each town was a car park with spaces for 100+ cars.

At many motorway junctions it is now common to see many cars just parked by the side of the road, as the drivers are using car pooling and commuting to where ever. Many motorways are in the country side, surrounded by green fields, lots of space and there is always a ESB HV pylon somewhere on the horizon.

As for the Nissan Leaf face lift, I think a lot of posters on here are being overly hard on the car. From the rear I think the Leaf is very modern, almost timeless classic look to it. You could go for a bit of nip / tuck on the front, but it would still remain the same.

But so what, look at the MINI, CLIO for example.... they have not changed too much, even in 2030 they will still have that MINI / CLIO style to them. Why should the LEAF be any different?

boardzz

I think when ev's have minimum 60kWh battery packs, 3-phase charging to make sufficient use of on street chargers when reach destination and fast chargers along major roads, sales will go through roof.
I don't think we need lots of fast chargers, in fact I think these will be used less when battery packs are bigger.
22Kw charge points will be the vital infrastructure required. As in 20 points in large car parks. Multiple along streets etc.
The 22Kw charge points is where the investment is needed.

ABC101

ABC101 wrote: »

As for the Nissan Leaf face lift, I think a lot of posters on here are being overly hard on the car. From the rear I think the Leaf is very modern, almost timeless classic look to it. You could go for a bit of nip / tuck on the front, but it would still remain the same.

But so what, look at the MINI, CLIO for example.... they have not changed too much, even in 2030 they will still have that MINI / CLIO style to them. Why should the LEAF be any different?

The Leaf shows too many signs of the old car and is basically a recycled version, nothing wrong with that but it shouldn't be called Leaf II, what they could have done instead was re-brand the Leaf as something else and release a real Leaf II that is a dedicated EV platform and not another ICE conversion which after 8 years is pretty shocking.

Water John

Yeah ABC, made that point before. Use the substations. There is at least a 38Kv near every town.
I know some firm were looking at acquiring sites near substations a few years ago. Don't know what for, but not solar.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

I think 30kWh is already enough for majority of drivers.

If they think so is a different story

+1

Who does a >200km commute (need a charge) and / or drives over 300km in a day once a week (need 2 charges)?

My guess is only about 10% of people. So 90% of people would be fine in an efficient EV with a 30kWh battery. The choice of cars and the type of cars is the second biggest problem in the take up of EVs. After ignorance of course, which is by far the number 1

Range probably doesn't even make it into the top 3 imho...

ABC101

Deleted User wrote: »

The Leaf shows too many signs of the old car and is basically a recycled version, nothing wrong with that but it shouldn't be called Leaf II, what they could have done instead was re-brand the Leaf as something else and release a real Leaf II that is a dedicated EV platform and not another ICE conversion which after 8 years is pretty shocking.

How can you say it's an old car? It came out in 2011, only 6 years ago!!! Man are you a hard one to please!:pac:

Most cars share a common platform, or are a derivative of a mother platform, and only after several generations does the daughter chassis become "independent" in it's own right. A example would be the Subaru Outback, which was based on the Legacy platform and Subaru Impreza hatchback.

The Volkswagen platform codes also are shared among various models and even across some manufacturers!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_platforms

To be honest I don't think the majority of potential purchasers actually care about the chassis / platform code. They just look at other specifications, price / cost of running being the main consideration etc.

From a purist perspective, one could for a new platform, designed from the ground up etc, but that would probably increase costs with regard to tooling / dedicated production lines etc. Far better to utilise an existing plant with existing robotic tooling / presses etc. Especially with a new type of product of which the market reception is less than certain.

Anyway the Leaf has been very successful, so perhaps we will see more dedicated platforms in the future from the mainstream manufacturers.

bk

unkel wrote: »

+1

Who does a >200km commute (need a charge) and / or drives over 300km in a day once a week (need 2 charges)?

My guess is only about 10% of people. So 90% of people would be fine in an efficient EV with a 30kWh battery. The choice of cars and the type of cars is the second biggest problem in the take up of EVs. After ignorance of course, which is by far the number 1

Range probably doesn't even make it into the top 3 imho...

I disagree, range anxiety or more precisely charger anxiety is a very real issue.

From reading this forum, it is becoming clear that the charger network just isn't good enough. The problem is knowing you have enough range to reach a charger, only to find it not working, ICE'd or already being used.

I might only drive down to Cork once a week, but I don't what to face the possibility that when I roll into the service station, that I won't be able to charge there with a screaming 2 year old in the back!

This is why I'm waiting for a 300km or so EV. So I don't have to rely on the crappy charger network in Ireland.

I do think that when we get to 300km range EV's with 350kwh charging and actually a good quality charging network to support it, all resistance will vanish. But we still aren't quiet there.

ABC101

350Kw is a serious amount of power. More than what my home uses in a month.

I see on the smart grid dashboard wholesale price of 1 MWhr is 30.32 Euro at the moment. So 350 would be around 10.50 euro approx.

At the nominal domestic rate of 0.17 cent / Kwhr 350 kw would be almost 60 Euro.

grogi

bk wrote: »

I do think that when we get to 300km range EV's with 350kwh charging /.../

350 kW.

ABC101 wrote: »

350Kw is a serious amount of power. More than what my home uses in a month.

I see on the smart grid dashboard wholesale price of 1 MWhr is 30.32 Euro at the moment. So 350 would be around 10.50 euro approx.

At the nominal domestic rate of 0.17 cent / Kwhr 350 kw would be almost 60 Euro.

350 kW in a month?! Did you mean 350 kWh?

ABC101

grogi wrote: »

bk wrote: »

I do think that when we get to 300km range EV's with 350kwh charging /.../

350 kW.

ABC101 wrote: »

350Kw is a serious amount of power. More than what my home uses in a month.

I see on the smart grid dashboard wholesale price of 1 MWhr is 30.32 Euro at the moment. So 350 would be around 10.50 euro approx.

At the nominal domestic rate of 0.17 cent / Kwhr 350 kw would be almost 60 Euro.

350 kW in a month?! Did you mean 350 kWh?

Yes, typo there, the house is on average 9.something Kwhr a day.

Just looking at the smart grid dashboard again, the wholesale price per MWhr jumps to a WHOPPING 196 euro around dinner time!!!

You would not want to be at a charger around then!!!

unkel

bk wrote: »

I disagree, range anxiety or more precisely charger anxiety is a very real issue.

Of course it's an issue! But not one of the important issues preventing people from buying EVs. At least not for the 90% of people I described above.

bk wrote: »

I might only drive down to Cork once a week

You're in the 10% of people I described above for who EVs are not suitable (yet). That said, the availability of FCP on the Cork to Dublin route is the least problematic of any route in the country

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Of course it's an issue! But not one of the important issues preventing people from buying EVs. At least not for the 90% of people I described above.

I disagree. It is a big issue and a big purchasing factor.

Purchasing a new car is a very emotional thing, very few people do it on pure facts and calculations. That's why all the commercials that appeal to the 'inner you', lifestyle etc.

And if someone would feel uncomfortable driving an EV - that discomfort might be completely unreasonable - it is still there and influences the decision to buy or not.

Water John

Agree grogi. Wouldn't swap the ICE for a second EV until it is well capable of doing Cork-Dublin without stopping and some spare.
Also that is then an easy sell for any garage, to customers.

ABC101

Water John wrote: »

Agree grogi. Wouldn't swap the ICE for a second EV until it is well capable of doing Cork-Dublin without stopping and some spare.
Also that is then an easy sell for any garage, to customers.

In fairness, it's horses for courses. If a EV will cover your commute, and there is a added bonus of getting your employer to charge up your EV for free and you can nip home again, then a EV would be perfectly suitable.

I think the plan will be to fit charging points at existing fuel stations etc, but when?

On another point, if more and more switch over to EV, at 41 euro / MWhr or 196 euro / MWhr somebody is going to have to pay for that.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

And if someone would feel uncomfortable driving an EV - that discomfort might be completely unreasonable - it is still there and influences the decision to buy or not.

Of course. But that's not down to the actual range of the car or the perceived needs by the buyer, but down to irrationality, or as I named it before: ignorance. That's the #1 factor in the slow uptake of EVs in Ireland

The overwhelming majority of people do not go from Dublin to Cork once a week or have a commute of more than 200km. For all these people a 30kWh efficient car is fine. Even though somehow they think it's not fine

Water John

But Unkel, there is equally a whole range of people who own a car but a ctually don't need one.
As others have said, one is playing with emotions and feelings as well as the practical.
For us the EV suits my OH perfectly. We both would be reluctant to be dependant on EVs totally at this point. Many other posters are similar and have an ICE, often parked up, most of the time.

bk

unkel wrote: »

You're in the 10% of people I described above for who EVs are not suitable (yet). That said, the availability of FCP on the Cork to Dublin route is the least problematic of any route in the country

You are correct about a trip to Cork, well covered even for an Ioniq today.

However I also travel around the country going hiking, etc. most weekends.

It was the Mournes this weekend, Fermanagh the weekend before. Chargers, in particular CSS chargers get pretty scarce in large parts of rural Ireland. Down around Kerry, West cost in general, Northern Ireland, Donegal, massive gaps in the midlands. The network is still looking quiet sparse once you go off the beaten track.

When I travel around I keep an eye out for chargers and think, what would it be like to do this trip in an EV.

Take the Mournes trip. I was delighted to see a dual AC charger in Donard Park in Newcastle. Perfect, charge while up the mountain.

Except both spots were already taken! (First time I've seen a Zoe BTW).

So from Dublin it is 143km. I'd arrive there with about 40 to 60km left. But now I can't charge while up the mountain, I'd come down having to hope one of them would be gone when I came back down, so I could plug in for 60 minutes and go get a coffee/food.

But what if there are still there!

Well the closest CSS charger on the way back to Dublin is at Applegreen on the M1, 72km away, so probably a non runner!

So next best option is either the CSS charger in Banbridge (wrong direction) at 32km or AC chargers in Newry at 34km. At those distances I'd definitely be feeling some range anxiety to get to them and then have to piss around for ages in boring shopping centers waiting for it to charge up!

And this is the Mournes which is a pretty easy trip. Now try Kerry or Donegal!

Now make it 300km, 350kw chargers and a lot more of them spread throughout the country or alternatively lots more slow charger spaces and it all becomes a lot more feasible.

BTW Yes, I know, I'd probably would stop at the Applegreens first for 20 minutes to top-up before heading to Newcastle, so that I'd have enough to make it back there afterwards. But it certainly does involve a lot of planning, not just jumping in a Diesel and off you go.

Or an I3 Rex !

I definitely felt a lot more comfortable in the Rex driving around Galway and wasn't afraid to have fun either.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Or an I3 Rex !

I definitely felt a lot more comfortable in the Rex driving around Galway and wasn't afraid to have fun either.

Yeah, but starting at 41k, ouch!

For that money I think I'd prefer to get a Model 3.

unkel

And the last thing you want to do after an exhausting day's hiking is having to worry about where to charge

I take the Porsche when going for a hike