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British monarch references painted over on street signs.
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Always the way, when there are no answers about the present, revert to the conflict/war and cherrypick.Cortina_MK_IV wrote: »Wow the topic metamorphosis from EU-flag burning, IRexiteers to the old rabbit out of a hat anti-Sinn Féin one is still going strong with not a hint of Hammerite in sight.
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Slaughter of Protestants on the border for a start. Plenty of evidence of IRA bigotry towards Protestants.FrancieBrady wrote: »maryishere wrote: »It was just a hatred of things Unionist and/or British and/or Protestant. But it was not bigotry. Yeah.
The IRA were involved in dismantling the sectarian bigoted state and those that ran it.
They had no hate of a religion or a people in general.
If you can show evidence of systemic bigotry against a race or creed in the IRA knock yourself out.
The evidence of systemic bigotry in the DUP is everywhere.0 -
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A Little Pony wrote: »You do make me laugh Francie. You make assertions, gets debunked by people who actually lived the very thing we are debating and then switch to the DUP again.
Debunked?
What of the current set up in the north is not true?
Are ex IRA members not in power? Are Republicans not equal partners? Those very people the sectarian bigots kept from power and equality for decades?0 -
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Gerry was not in the IRA. Or do you believe him? Martin McGuinnes was treated with respect and accepted in to government when he had a mandate and rejected violence. It is worth noting that in N. Ireland Sinn Fein did not succeed in getting a MP elected until 1983, a decade after the worst years of the troubles.FrancieBrady wrote: »Are ex IRA members not in power?
Here in the Republic a lot of politicians would still refuse to share power with Sinn Fein no matter what. Are they less bigoted or more bigoted than the DUP Francie, seeing as you think all DUP people are bigoted, even though they shared power with Sinn Fein for years?
Our politicians here have sometimes taken a harder line against extremist Republicans than the DUP have eg De Valera's government executed more IRA members than Britain and even borrowed the UK's most famous executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, to hang one of them. A few IRA even died in DeValera jail on hunger strike.
Yet Francie still thinks, as he said earlier, all DUP supporters, to a man / woman, are bigoted, while the Republican "lads" who killed innocent protestants like the workmen at Kingsmills were not bigoted. 0 -
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maryishere wrote: »Gerry was not in the IRA. Or do you believe him? Martin McGuinnes was treated with respect and accepted in to government when he had a mandate and rejected violence. It is worth noting that in N. Ireland Sinn Fein did not succeed in getting a MP elected until 1983, a decade after the worst years of the troubles.
Here in the Republic a lot of politicians would still refuse to share power with Sinn Fein no matter what. Are they less bigoted or more bigoted than the DUP Francie, seeing as you think all DUP people are bigoted, even though they shared power with Sinn Fein for years?
Our politicians here have sometimes taken a harder line against extremist Republicans than the DUP have eg De Valera's government executed more IRA members than Britain and even borrowed the UK's most famous executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, to hang one of them. A few IRA even died in DeValera jail on hunger strike.
Yet Francie still thinks, as he said earlier, all DUP supporters, to a man / woman, are bigoted, while the Republican "lads" who killed innocent protestants like the workmen at Kingsmills were not bigoted.
Nothing to do with Gerry, there are plenty of ex IRA members in government and more importantly there is no bar on them or any republican or nationalist or catholic for that matter.
A massive victory and I and most of the rest of the world, dont care one wit who you think achieved that. It doesn't matter what you think or what you bitterly don't want to accept.0 -
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What are you talking about? It is you who lied when you claimed all DUP supporters, to a man / woman, are bigoted, while the Republican "lads" who killed innocent protestants like the workmen at Kingsmills were not bigoted.FrancieBrady wrote: »You gonna lie again about what I said now?
You said "there are plenty of ex IRA members in government". Who cares? Martin McG and Paisley got on well ( Chuckles brothers). I said "most of the government is not ex IRA" which I think is true but you say "You gonna lie again about what I said now?"
Maybe you know something the rest of us do not know? Maybe there are unknown "sleepers" in the govt?
Poor Protestants had the same voting rights as poor Catholics in local elections.FrancieBrady wrote: »there was a very effective bar {I didn't say 'ban') look up the 'property franchise' and gerrymandering. Am I really having to tell a self pronounced expert this stuff?
"one man, one vote" became a rallying cry for the civil right campaign in the late 60's and the Parliament of Northern Ireland voted to update the voting rules, which were implemented for the Northern Ireland general election, 1969.
Results of that general election are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_general_election,_1969
Gerrymandering and the property franchise in local elections was wrong. But an armed struggle over several decades only made things worse for everyone. Change would have happened quicker by democratic means, same as change happened here in the Republic.FrancieBrady wrote: »Like I said, who cares about the version of the truth of somebody who blithely ignores gerrymandering and the property franchise in her revisionist nonsense.0 -
maryishere wrote: »What are you talking about? It is you who lied when you claimed all DUP supporters, to a man / woman, are bigoted, while the Republican "lads" who killed innocent protestants like the workmen at Kingsmills were not bigoted.
You said "there are plenty of ex IRA members in government". Who cares? Martin McG and Paisley got on well ( Chuckles brothers). I said "most of the government is not ex IRA" which I think is true but you say "You gonna lie again about what I said now?"
Maybe you know something the rest of us do not know? Maybe there are unknown "sleepers" in the govt?
Poor Protestants had the same voting rights as poor Catholics in local elections.
"one man, one vote" became a rallying cry for the civil right campaign in the late 60's and the Parliament of Northern Ireland voted to update the voting rules, which were implemented for the Northern Ireland general election, 1969.
Results of that general election are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_general_election,_1969
Gerrymandering and the property franchise in local elections was wrong. But an armed struggle over several decades only made things worse for everyone. Change would have happened quicker by democratic means, same as change happened here in the Republic.
Had enough of your selective delusions. Nobody cares about your bitter revisionism and neither do I anymore. You should lobby for NICRA to be imprisoned and get them to apologise for exaggeration 0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Had enough of your selective delusions.:D:D:D:D You think I am the one who is deluded, when I could recognise (and condemn) the bigotry of the extremists on both sides. It is you who claimed all DUP supporters, to a man / woman, are bigoted, while the Republican "lads" who killed innocent protestants like the workmen at Kingsmills were not bigoted.
You think even the Catholics from Rathlin who voted for the DUP were bigoted?
No, they were fully entitled to use peaceful means.FrancieBrady wrote: »You should lobby for NICRA to be imprisoned0 -
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maryishere wrote: »:D:D:D:D You think I am the one who is deluded, when I could recognise (and condemn) the bigotry of the extremists on both sides. It is you who claimed all DUP supporters, to a man / woman, are bigoted, while the Republican "lads" who killed innocent protestants like the workmen at Kingsmills were not bigoted.
You think even the Catholics from Rathlin who voted for the DUP were bigoted?
No, they were fully entitled to use peaceful means.
You lie and take liberties again with what was said.
I said there was sectarianism on both sides and I said there was bigotry on both sides.
THE POINT is that bigotry and sectarianism is much more endemic and ingrained on one side and has been for centuries. And it is still in existence.
I ALSO said it is still there in the DUP PARTY, and a large cohort of it's supporters. Which you of course, as usual twisted to your own silly use.
Here is what Kevin Myers, no fan of republicanism or nationalism has to say about that ingrained and endemic bigotry. Note his focus on 'rabble rousers' (the latest version being Arlene Foster) and religious hypocrisy and intolerance.
Plenty more of the same opinion on the facts of history, if you have eyes to see it.IT was good of the UVF thugs of East Belfast to give me a cue with which to follow my Fenian column of yesterday (which, as it happens I had started before the unprovoked attack on the Short Strand). For we should be clear about this; the culture of the Billy-Boy tribal bigot predates the emergence of Fenianism as a powerful force amongst the Catholic working classes of Belfast and Glasgow.
Paradoxically, the rabble-rousing leaders of these drunken louts have usually been teetotal clergymen, such as Roaring Hanna and Ian Paisley. The compulsory Sunday closing of pubs was once a primary element of their identity -- provided that their own drinking clubs were allowed to remain open. Logic is never the strong point of any strongly held tribal identity, but particularly so for these people, who have remained locked in a historical enigma wherein they are 'British', though living in Ireland, and generally lawless though they 'loyally' support the Crown, and sober in their general political aspiration, though usually enough drunk at the time.
They have a church, too. In their illiterate and incoherent scheme of things, Calvary is probably a collective for horses and maybe Gethsemane is something mysterious that happens in a sperm-bank. No, their real religion is Rangers Football Club.
Glasgow Rangers is the sporting icon for loyalist bigots. The club's own words are irreproachably neutral. It is law-abiding. It is patriotically British. Its outward message is of harmony and ecumenism. But to the large thug element amongst the Rangers fans the key to their identity is almost like the Third Secret of Fatima. It is this: NO FENIANS here.
There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats.
This culture did not emerge simply as a response to IRA violence. It was there already. It was feckless, violent, drunken, lost, lumpen proletarians for whom a perverted tribal identity conjoined with a Godlessly Calvinist sense of superiority, even as they stewed in their ghettoes of suffocating illiteracy and economic failure. But they were nonetheless elevated by the insane delusion that they are the chosen people, who have been deprived of their birthright by some vast conspiracy between the Catholic Church and the British government.
This psychiatric condition affects almost an entire under-caste, thereby placing their minds and aspirations almost beyond ordinary analysis.
This Sunday, it will be 45 years since their hero, Gusty Spence, murdered the teenage barman Peter Ward and seriously wounded William Doyle in the Malvern Street shootings. Thus the Troubles got under way. (Nineteen years later, the Catholic barrister who had defended Spence at his trial, also called William Doyle, was shot dead by the IRA for the hideous crime of being a judge. And so it goes.)
Now we know: these Troubles of ours haven't gone away, you know. And they're at it again in East Belfast, with a lost tribe of illiterate, paranoid barbarians wandering the bleak landscape of their own brutal imaginations, about no purpose that any one of them could possibly explain. Except they probably know this is a period of rather enjoyable violence, before the much-loved Orange marches -- plus riots, with luck -- can begin.
And next comes Rangers' first match of the season, to be followed by a night of paralytic alcoholism, and rounded off, no doubt, with a complete short-term memory lapse. (This is called "culture", by the way.)
For once, let history be our guide. Our political classes must not be swayed by the violence of these cretins.
When SF and ex prisoners are lobbying for the restoration and preservation of a planter castle etc and the DUP cannot even bring themselves to accept the heritage of the Irish language, it isn't hard to see where the major problems are.
The tiny support these idiots who paint out raised cast iron street names in the south have SHOULD tell you something when you compare it to a mainstream political party (DUP) rabble raising and playing to their sectarian gallery about raised cast iron manhole covers with Irish on them.
AGAIN, NOBODY is saying that both sides are innocent, but there are major issues with endemic bigotry in DUP unionism. Even Ian Paisley, Tony Blair, David Trimble have addressed it.
You, as usual, are in a revisionist minority of one.0 -
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