Nike sponsoring sub-2 hour marathon attempt

The Golden Miller

OOnegative wrote: »

But not the best marathoner of all time though. He has a bit to go on that yet.

True. Kipchoge moved over to marathons earlier and hasn't suffered injuries to the same extent. It's only a matter of time before Bekele becomes the top marathon runner too imo. But we can only wait and see I guess

KSU

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Bekele was injured for a long time. Never the same since. Still, he's running more and more marathons these days and getting back there. He's the better runner of the two imo, by a distance. Only a matter of time until he surpasses Kipchoge on the road too. Easily the best distance runner of all time

He hasn't ran that many more

He had 2 DNF in 2015
He finished his 2 marathons in 2016
He had 2 DNF in 2017
He had 1 DNS in 2018
He finished his 2 marathons in 2019

I think its a long way from a forgone conclusion that an older, injury prone athlete can surpass the greatest marathon runner. Consistency is half the battle and Bekele has missed alot of time over the past 8 years.

The following is fairly telling as well

https://twitter.com/WMMajors/status/1182958620163616769?s=20

OOnegative

adrian522 wrote: »

Blown off the map due to technological advance though.

Genuine question, do you think the shoes give such gains? Is it not Nike bull****tery at its finest saying these shoes make you run x,y & z times?

OOnegative

The Golden Miller wrote: »

True. Kipchoge moved over to marathons earlier and hasn't suffered injuries to the same extent. It's only a matter of time before Bekele becomes the top marathon runner too imo. But we can only wait and see I guess

Nobody on this thread would dispute Bekele’s greatness, but injuries probably cost him his best years at the marathon as you have pointed out. At 37 he has maybe two more good years left if he stays injury free. I don’t think he’ll make the ground up necessary to surpass Eluid as the best marathon runner ever.

The Golden Miller

KSU wrote: »

He hasn't ran that many more

He had 2 DNF in 2015
He finished his 2 marathons in 2016
He had 2 DNF in 2017
He had 1 DNS in 2018
He finished his 2 marathons in 2019

I think its a long way from a forgone conclusion that an older, injury prone athlete can surpass the greatest marathon runner. Consistency is half the battle and Bekele has missed alot of time over the past 8 years.

The following is fairly telling as well

https://twitter.com/WMMajors/status/1182958620163616769?s=20

I do get what you're saying, and by the sounds of it, don't follow distance running anymore to the same extent as you. Is it fair to say though, that Bekele has been fitter the last couple of years and not quite as injury prone as he was? Without consistency as you say, he can't build up conditioning for marathon running to the level of Kipchoge. The gap is closing though, no? If Bekele does stay injury free and sets his mind to it, he's a bit of a freak in terms of distance running. Never really seen anything like him before

The Golden Miller

OOnegative wrote: »

Nobody on this thread would dispute Bekele’s greatness, but injuries probably cost him his best years at the marathon as you have pointed out. At 37 he has maybe two more good years left if he stays injury free. I don’t think he’ll make the ground up necessary to surpass Eluid as the best marathon runner ever.

It will be interesting. Hypothetically, had he not suffered injuries to the extent he did, would he have been the best at marathons in your opinion? Sad to see how he deteriorated on the track too

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

Genuine question, do you think the shoes give such gains? Is it not Nike bull****tery at its finest saying these shoes make you run x,y & z times?

I dunno man. I think the runners play a huge part in the sudden improvement in times. Even at amateur level listen to the lads that wear them. General consensus seems to be they make a big difference.

yaboya1

Kipchoge has won Berlin more than once, currently holds the world record and has hammered Bekele every time they've met in the marathon.
This morning's stunt was of more interest to him as it was a new challenge than taking on Berlin/Bekele and winning again.

How anyone can say it's only a matter of time that Bekele surpasses Kipchoge as a marathon runner I don't know. It's nonsense.

Bekele is 37 and has bean beaten in 70% of his marathon starts, failing to finish on a few occasions. When is this inevitable handing over of the marathon mantle going to happen? When he's 40?

KSU

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I dunno man. I think the runners play a huge part in the sudden improvement in times. Even at amateur level listen to the lads that wear them. General consensus seems to be they make a big difference.

Is anyone really gonna admit to themselves that they wasted 250e though?

The Golden Miller

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I dunno man. I think the runners play a huge part in the sudden improvement in times. Even at amateur level listen to the lads that wear them. General consensus seems to be they make a big difference.

I'd say it makes a difference over time (years). Shoe's, like everything, are made better in general these days. The "performing enhancing" that the latest shoe can give over one that was made 6 months ago would be bullsh!t imo. That's just gimmicks

skyblue46

OOnegative wrote: »

Genuine question, do you think the shoes give such gains? Is it not Nike bull****tery at its finest saying these shoes make you run x,y & z times?

I think the shoes are a massive gain. To wear a shoe specifically designed for himself, ones that not even the pacers wore, surely implies a decent benefit?

Swashbuckler

KSU wrote:

Is anyone really gonna admit to themselves that they wasted 250e though?

Was literally just texting a mate about the same (he's now buying the runners from today. Marketing at its finest).

I couldn't justify that amount. As I said to him, we're not elites. Save a fortune and put down the bag of chips and you'll gain more.

That being said some of the lads on here have put in some decent times with them (and decent training of course)

adrian522

OOnegative wrote: »

Genuine question, do you think the shoes give such gains? Is it not Nike bull****tery at its finest saying these shoes make you run x,y & z times?

Yeah I do, there is no way the times have come down by 3 mins in a few years just due to better training or whatever. I don't think you can be competitive on other types of shoes now and Nike keep the latest Tech for their top guys so I don't think its a level playing field at the moment.

The original 4% were said to give a 2.6% performance benefit (according to a Nike funded study).

No one really knows how much benefit their is to the Next% or whatever Kipchogue was wearing today.

If not the shoes then the only other explanation is even less palatable.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1183011488232927232

The Golden Miller

yaboya1 wrote: »

Kipchoge has won Berlin more than once, currently holds the world record and has hammered Bekele every time they've met in the marathon.
This morning's stunt was of more interest to him as it was a new challenge than taking on Berlin/Bekele and winning again.

How anyone can say it's only a matter of time that Bekele surpasses Kipchoge as a marathon runner I don't know. It's nonsense.

Bekele is 37 and has bean beaten in 70% of his marathon starts, failing to finish on a few occasions. When is this inevitable handing over of the marathon mantle going to happen? When he's 40?

Yet the longer Bekele stays fit, his upward trajectory continues, to the point his pb is now only two seconds shy of Kipchoge. His body still isn't conditioned to marathon running like Kipchoge, he hasn't being doing it as long to a serious level plus injuries, yet he's now within 2 second of Kipchoge's best. We can only wait and see, but if Bekele stays fit going forward, he'll break the WR with relative ease imo

KSU

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Was literally just texting a mate about the same (he's now buying the runners from today. Marketing at its finest).

I couldn't justify that amount. As I said to him, we're not elites. Save a fortune and put down the bag of chips and you'll gain more.

That being said some of the lads on here have put in some decent times with them (and decent training of course)

I think its one of those things that they personality of the buyer does have an impact.

If someone is willing to shell out that kinda money on a hobby then they are taking it seriously and by extension are gonna put in the work.

If they are focusing on minute details such as shoes then logic would suggest they are actively making positive choices on the finer details (i.e trying to do the little things right) this could be wrong but by in large my own anecdotal evidence would suggest that.

Mental approach also plays a factor and if you believe shoes will give you that extra 4% then you are less stressed about other minor details going wrong.

As you say though for the 4% on offer majority of people would see better improvements focusing on improving the other 96%

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I dunno man. I think the runners play a huge part in the sudden improvement in times. Even at amateur level listen to the lads that wear them. General consensus seems to be they make a big difference.

That’s why I asked, i’m not into the whole technical aspect of runners. But I don’t buy it myself. Are the amateur lads saying that because Eluid, Bekele etc wear them so they can’t be wrong? Jeez i’m starting to sound like walshb......

OOnegative

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah I do, there is no way the times have come down by 3 mins in a few years just due to better training or whatever. I don't think you can be competitive on other types of shoes now and Nike keep the latest Tech for their top guys so I don't think its a level playing field at the moment.

The original 4% were said to give a 2.6% performance benefit (according to a Nike funded study).

No one really knows how much benefit their is to the Next% or whatever Kipchogue was wearing today.

If not the shoes then the only other explanation is even less palatable.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1183011488232927232

Cool, I retract my view point so. Probably the price of them to that has me so skeptical(I am mean.....).

yaboya1

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yet the longer Bekele stays fit, his upward trajectory continues, to the point his pb is now only two seconds shy of Kipchoge. His body still isn't conditioned to marathon running like Kipchoge, he hasn't being doing it as long to a serious level plus injuries, yet he's now within 2 second of Kipchoge's best. We can only wait and see, but if Bekele stays fit going forward, he'll break the WR with relative ease imo

I doubt many agree with you.
If I remember correctly, both ran Chicago in 2014, which was Bekele's 2nd marathon and Kipchoge's 3rd, so not at the big disadvantage you seem to assume.
Bekele was favourite for that race. We all know how that went.

skyblue46

OOnegative wrote: »

Cool, I retract my view point so. Probably the price of them to that has me so skeptical(I am mean.....).

Big budgets generally win out when it comes to technological advancements. Nike has put a huge spend into the properties of different foams. I think it has been a game changer....a bit like metal woods when they were introduced in golf and the Pro V1 golf ball when it came on the scene.

28064212

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It will be interesting. Hypothetically, had he not suffered injuries to the extent he did, would he have been the best at marathons in your opinion? Sad to see how he deteriorated on the track too

That's a meaningless question. Avoiding injury is part of what makes runners great. It's not football, a runner's training is entirely up to themselves, they will not be injured by actions they cannot control.

KSU

adrian522 wrote: »

No one really knows how much benefit their is to the Next% or whatever Kipchogue was wearing today.

Pretty sure these have been refered to as the alphafly

https://www.believeintherun.com/2019/10/09/a-breakdown-of-the-nike-kipchoge-prototype/

OOnegative

skyblue46 wrote: »

Big budgets generally win out when it comes to technological advancements. Nike has put a huge spend into the properties of different foams. I think it has been a game changer....a bit like metal woods when they were introduced in golf and the Pro V1 golf ball when it came on the scene.

But like me, you didn’t start shooting -4, -5 in rounds of golf after starting to use the Pro V1.......

Swashbuckler

KSU wrote:

If someone is willing to shell out that kinda money on a hobby then they are taking it seriously and by extension are gonna put in the work.

Yep you're spot on. It's the perfect storm of someone who is serious about running and loves these gimmicks.

OOnegative wrote:

That’s why I asked, i’m not into the whole technical aspect of runners. But I don’t buy it myself. Are the amateur lads saying that because Eluid, Berkele etc wear them so they can’t be wrong? Jeez i’m starting to sound like walshb......

Can I quote the exact words I read in the conversation? "they can't all be wrong". Haha.

All that aside I've seen Healy and Mellow both mention feeling something "different" when wearing them.

skyblue46

OOnegative wrote: »

But like me, you didn’t start shooting -4, -5 in rounds of golf after starting to use the Pro V1.......

No, but I hit it 10/15 yards further...my short game is crap! :pac:

The Golden Miller

yaboya1 wrote: »

I doubt many agree with you.
If I remember correctly, both ran Chicago in 2014, which was Bekele's 2nd marathon and Kipchoge's 3rd, so not at the big disadvantage you seem to assume.
Bekele was favourite for that race. We all know how that went.

Bekele was a shadow of his former self at the time, had injuries and personal issues, and wasn't marathon training specific like Kipchoge.

He'd probably have the marathon WR right now, had he gone earlier in Berlin. 13 second down in second and left it a bit too late. There was more in the tank though, no one can really raise their speed/a sustained kick to his level at the tailend of a distance race. I'd put alot of money on him to take Kipchoge when they meet again in a marathon. If it's anyway close near the end, Kipchoge won't be able to live with Bekele once he up's the pace

yaboya1

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Bekele was a shadow of his former self at the time, had injuries and personal issues, and wasn't marathon training specific like Kipchoge.

He'd probably have the marathon WR right now, had he gone earlier in Berlin. 13 second down in second and left it a bit too late. There was more in the tank though, no one can really raise their speed/a sustained kick to his level at the tailend of a distance race. I'd put alot of money on him to take Kipchoge when they meet again in a marathon. If it's anyway close near the end, Kipchoge won't be able to live with Bekele once he up's the pace

Hope you've a lot of money you can afford to lose so.

adrian522

KSU wrote: »

Pretty sure these have been refered to as the alphafly

https://www.believeintherun.com/2019/10/09/a-breakdown-of-the-nike-kipchoge-prototype/

Yeah, but nothing published on the potential performance benefit of those as far as I know.

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Can I quote the exact words I read in the conversation? "they can't all be wrong". Haha.

All that aside I've seen Healy and Mellow both mention feeling something "different" when wearing them.

Yeah but lads you mentioned are the Boards equivalent of Kipchoge & Bekele so they see the benefits......(i’m on a losing battle here so i’ll stop). Like you though I wouldn’t pay the money for them as 1. I couldn’t justify it. 2. divorce papers would follow and 3. Hard work at my level will get me further.

IvoryTower

Scullion said only 14 of them didn't wear the nikes in world champs marathon (cause they had to wear their sponsors shoe).

The Golden Miller

28064212 wrote: »

That's a meaningless question. Avoiding injury is part of what makes runners great. It's not football, a runner's training is entirely up to themselves, they will not be injured by actions they cannot control.

I guess it was a question of talent. Kipchoge has stayed fit and trained consistently for marathons. He's the best we've seen so far at them, but has raced close to his limit/potential.

I don't think Bekele has, or has even ran close to his potential at marathon level, but he's starting to get there now. He's now only 2 second shy of Kipchoge, yet there's still alot of room for improvement with his potential/limit