Should Ireland have conscription?

Wanderer78

road_high wrote: »

In some instances it is, but certainly not routinely always. Anything else is akin to rent a mob style justice ala the free water brigade. Respecting authority and believing in ridiculous leftie conspiracies are two very different things.

always, always question authority! how about respect all humans, always! what ridiculous leftie conspiracies would they be?

road_high

Wanderer78 wrote: »

always, always question authority! how about respect all humans, always! what ridiculous leftie conspiracies would they be?

The type of loons that believe the Gardai abs media are in Denis Obrien's pocket etc...you know the type of nutters that post such stuff here daily. Usually because they don't work to keep themselves busy, but quite happy to live off the taxpayer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

road_high wrote: »

The type of loons that believe the Gardai abs media are in Denis Obrien's pocket etc...you know the type of nutters that post such stuff here daily. Usually because they don't work to keep themselves busy, but quite happy to live off the taxpayer.

... and you want to stifle this debate by throwing them all in the army or "keep them busy"?! Sounds like a right-wing conspiracy now!

Wanderer78

road_high wrote: »

The type of loons that believe the Gardai abs media are in Denis Obrien's pocket etc...you know the type of nutters that post such stuff here daily. Usually because they don't work to keep themselves busy, but quite happy to live off the taxpayer.

some interesting issues within your statement:

the gardai, damn right they should be paid more.

people like denis o'brien, bad news for society as a whole, and

long term unemployment, root causes which are extremely complex of which our government has no real interest in dealing with.

AnGaelach

AnGaelach wrote: »

Just wondering what people think about it. Say spending a year in the military and then spending x number of days per year training.

Your vote won't be public.

If it was a genuine retreat where youngsters could learn to think for themselves, how to be creative, learn valuable skills and build their character then yes i would be on for that. if it is a military bootcamp similar to the rangers then im not sure we want to be sending our youngsters down that route given we have a depression problem amongst young people and young men in particular in this country

road_high

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... and you want to stifle this debate by throwing them all in the army?! Sounds like a right-wing conspiracy now!

Yes it might instill some kind of greater concern for society and respect for others. At the moment we have a free for all approach, where those that want to opt out of responsibility (to pay taxes and contribute can) can do so.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

road_high wrote: »

Yes it might instill some kind of greater concern for society and respect for others. At the moment we have a free for all approach, where those that want to opt out of responsibility (to pay taxes and contribute can) can do so.

Answered that - we're going round in circles here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... or it might do the exact opposite.

You can't force free individuals to feel something like that - they either feel it of their own volition or they don't - and you can't force people to respect something.

Wanderer78

road_high wrote: »

Yes it might instill some kind of greater concern for society and respect for others. At the moment we have a free for all approach, where those that want to opt out of responsibility (to pay taxes and contribute can) can do so.

a very common and serious misdiagnoses of the root causes of long term unemployment, but not to worry, many of our politicians think in a similar vain.

road_high

Wanderer78 wrote: »

some interesting issues within your statement:

the gardai, damn right they should be paid more.

people like denis o'brien, bad news for society as a whole, and

long term unemployment, root causes which are extremely complex of which our government has no real interest in dealing with.

Oh won't the government please give me a job...I'm entitled to one!
Not how the real world works, governments only create the conditions for jobs to flourish. If the "long term unemployed" are too lazy or precious to take up those opportunities im not sure what more they can do? Apart from slash welfare which is what they should be doing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

road_high wrote: »

Oh won't the government please give me a job...I'm entitled to one!
Not how the real world works, governments only create the conditions for jobs to flourish. If the "long term unemployed" are too lazy or precious to take up those opportunities im not sure what more they can do? Apart from slash welfare which is what they should be doing.

Stop using this topic to shoehorn in some kind of anti-welfare rant. Back on topic. The idea won't work in the way you think it will, regardless of the employment background of the conscripts for reasons I've outlined - care to rebut?

road_high

road_high wrote: »

Oh won't the government please give me a job...I'm entitled to one!
Not how the real world works, governments only create the conditions for jobs to flourish. If the "long term unemployed" are too lazy or precious to take up those opportunities im not sure what more they can do? Apart from slash welfare which is what they should be doing.

What on earth makes you think that? In general we are a very hardworking race

road_high

Wanderer78 wrote: »

a very common and serious misdiagnoses of the root causes of long term unemployment, but not to worry, many of our politicians think in a similar vain.

Root cause of long term unemployment is laziness, a zero sense of public duty, ridiculously high welfare rates.
Sadly not, the Dail is now overflowing with Nampy pampy socialists who want to bleed taxpayers and the self employed dry. Even FF are at it. Too many vested interests and wasters living off the welfare state for anything to change.

road_high

Deleted User wrote: »

What on earth makes you think that? In general we are a very hardworking race

Most are. But there's a huge cohort that ain't. Let's not pretend they don't exist.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

road_high wrote: »

Most are. But there's a huge cohort that ain't. Let's not pretend they don't exist.

And you want to resolve this by throw them (consription means everone) in the army? And while you're at it, what will the army have to do with lowering welfare rates?

road_high

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And you want to resolve this by throw them (consription means everone) in the army? And while you're at it, what will the army have to do with lowering welfare rates?

As I've said several times, it may instill a little collective responsibility and discipline in people's lives at a young age- where they might develop a sense that hey, the taxpayer doesn't owe me a living for life. That I should get up off my arse and do things for myself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

road_high wrote: »

As I've said several times, it may instill a little collective responsibility and discipline in people's lives at a young age- where they might develop a sense that hey, the taxpayer doesn't owe me a living for life. That I should get up off my arse and do things for myself.

This is the third time I've had to tell you that you can't force people to like or respect something.

It's pretty clear from your posts and anti-welfare/unemployment bull**** that you have no idea what the idea is about, what its aims are or who it's even trying to target; and until you do there's no point in debating it with you.

Wanderer78

road_high wrote: »

Oh won't the government please give me a job...I'm entitled to one!
Not how the real world works, governments only create the conditions for jobs to flourish. If the "long term unemployed" are too lazy or precious to take up those opportunities im not sure what more they can do? Apart from slash welfare which is what they should be doing.

ive highlighted the most important word, now sit up and take note, here comes a rant:

you will find that the root causes of long term unemployment are complex issues such as, mental health issues, complex behavioural and personality disorders, complex disabilities including learning disabilities, etc etc. some common issues would be various forms of autism, adhd, bipolar, dyslexia, illiteracy etc etc. these issues are further compounded by a failure in adequately dealing with these issues within our social systems, i.e. failure within our educational system, health care system, legal system etc etc. in fact some of these systems can further exacerbate these issues. many of the individuals that this effects are actually undiagnosed, and their issues are perceived as 'laziness'!

to add insult to injury, our governments have been sold a pup in the form fundamentally flawed economic theories and principles such as neoliberalism and neoclassical theory. these largely come from the chicago school of thought and the washington consensus. neoclassical theory is a beaut! highly recommend some research into these subject matters. tons of info on the weird wide web.

road_high

road_high wrote: »

Most are. But there's a huge cohort that ain't. Let's not pretend they don't exist.

I never said they didnt but the poster i was responding to describes it as some sort of epidemic. Of course they are lazy b@stards because the government has also created an environment for them to thrive too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This is the third time I've had to tell you that you can't force people to like or respect something.

It's pretty clear from your posts and anti-welfare/unemployment bull**** that you have no idea what the idea is about, what its aims are or who it's even trying to target; and until you do there's no point in debating it with you.

What type of institution is it going to be though? Thats my concern. Id like a one that makes people and not breaks them. I like the idea but it needs to be executed correctly.

road_high

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This is the third time I've had to tell you that you can't force people to like or respect something.

It's pretty clear from your posts and anti-welfare/unemployment bull**** that you have no idea what the idea is about, what its aims are or who it's even trying to target; and until you do there's no point in debating it with you.

You don't want to debate because you don't want to hear a few hard truths that link welfare dependence to a general lack of self discipline and sense of responsibility in Irish society. A period of military service may help instill that sense of responsibility. Please don't patronise me just because you disagree with my assertion.

road_high

Deleted User wrote: »

What type of institution is it going to be though? Thats my concern. Id like a one that makes people and not breaks them. I like the idea but it needs to be executed correctly.

Me too. One that would teach life skills, self discipline and core responsibilities as a citizen.

road_high

road_high wrote: »

You don't want to debate because you don't want to hear a few hard truths that link welfare dependence to a general lack of self discipline and sense of responsibility in Irish society. A period of military service may help instill that sense of responsibility. Please don't patronise me just because you disagree with my assertion.

That is assumptions though. As you admitted yourself, its not everyone that does this. Im doing a postgrad through springboard at the moment and everyone on this course is highly committed to it and most of the people who were on it are delighted to be doing something in their day because they were getting cabin fever at home. .

Assumptions and reality are different and that is something ive learned as part of this postgrad im doing.

road_high

Deleted User wrote: »

That is assumptions though. As you admitted yourself, its not everyone that does this. Im doing a postgrad through springboard at the moment and everyone on this course is highly committed to it and most of the people who were on it are delighted to be doing something in their day because they were getting cabin fever at home. .

Assumptions and reality are different and that is something ive learned as part of this postgrad im doing.

I wouldnt group you and your colleagues in that bracket as clearly you want to upskill and get back into the labor force (not sure what spring board is but think it's retraining or upskilling if you've been out of work?).

road_high

road_high wrote: »

I wouldnt group you and your colleagues in that bracket as clearly you want to upskill and get back into the labor force (not sure what spring board is but think it's retraining or upskilling if you've been out of work?).

Your correct. Effectively a college placement.

I know the type you are on about and there is those who wouldn't work to warm themselves. I think though that it stems from a failing education system. If you are engaged in school as a child then that willingness to participate stays with you. The issue can be tackled at that level and self sufficiency can be thought there.

El_Duderino 09

road_high wrote:

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

If the parents tried and failed to instill those values, how would the state get getter results? If the patents never tried to instill them then there's very little chance of it lasting long after they get home.

There really appears to be a will to straighten adults out once they become listless scumbags without pride or a sense of dignity. But there would be uproar of the government tried to tell parents what values to instill in children in the first place.

Is this conscription only for scumbags in lieu of a prison sentence or do decent people have to do it too?

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If the patents never tried to instill them then there's very little chance of it lasting long after they get home.

Do you really think that after a year of proving themselves to themselves and to the army they would actually want to go back to having nothing to offer anybody and having no purpose? If that's the case then people are irredeemable and we might as well give up.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair play for thinking about it. I imagine a lot of people are much happier to sign others up once they know they're precluded for service themselves. I think if you ask people if service age you'd get a much lower number than people above service age, for example.

That's why I think compulsory military service is a bit like Brexit. As demographics the older people voted to leave while the younger people voted to remain (particularly the ones who will have to live their entire adult life with the consequences of the referendum)

'I'll sign, you soldier' is an easier decision to make than having to do both yourself.

I wouldn't suggest anything I'm not/wouldn't have been prepared to do. It's not that long since I was eighteen, it's not the dim and distant past and I would have felt the same when I was eighteen. I don't lose the right to an opinion just because it probably wouldn't affect me. What about any sons or daughters I might have who might be eligible for it when it is implemented (hypothetically), or brothers or sisters I might have, or cousins, nephews and nieces? he same goes for Brexit and old people-do you think they don't have younger relatives and friends and that they weren't thinking of them when they voted? This is not Brexit and you're being too simplistic. I think your assumptions about people are wrong.

You also said if I wanted to serve I would have, but there is a difference between doing a year's service and signing up for the whole hog. People could have the opportunity to do a year without being tied to it. As things are currently structured people are rushed to get through secondary, college and then into work or even the dole.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

Do you really think that after a year of proving themselves to themselves and to the army they would actually want to go back to having nothing to offer anybody and having no purpose? If that's the case then people are irredeemable and we might as well give up.

Some people are irredeemable. We usually wait for them to commit crimes and imprison them. Some people might benefit from the training but that would be a byproduct of military experience rather than the Intended outcome. The intended outcome is to create unthinking/unquestioning instruments for the military.

If you want to rehab people who have been taught to be listless losers/scumbags by their environment, that's a noble goal. The military is a blunt instrument for achieving that outcome.

If you're proposing a disciplined approach to applied learning, that's another thing. Teaching people to use weapons or work as an actual military unit is not productive back in civilised society. Teaching useful skills might be useful though.

What happens when they get back into their old problematic environment?

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Some people are irredeemable. We usually wait for them to commit crimes and imprison them. Some people might benefit from the training but that would be a byproduct of military experience rather than the Intended outcome. The intended outcome is to create unthinking/unquestioning instruments for the military.

If you want to rehab people who have been taught to be listless losers/scumbags by their environment, that's a noble goal. The military is a blunt instrument for achieving that outcome.

If you're proposing a disciplined approach to applied learning, that's another thing. Teaching people to use weapons or work as an actual military unit is not productive back in civilised society. Teaching useful skills might be useful though.

What happens when they get back into their old problematic environment?

I dont see it that way. Yes being able to follow an order is part of it.Holding your end up is part of that-working as a unit or a team. Some people can't do that because they're too selfish and have never worked that way. It's also about endurance and grit. Those two things are the keys to success of almost any kind in life.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

I dont see it that way. Yes being able to follow an order is part of it.Holding your end up is part of that-working as a unit or a team. Some people can't do that because they're too selfish and have never worked that way. It's also about endurance and grit. Those two things are the keys to success of almost any kind in life.

Those aspects (teamwork and doing jobs) would be useful in the short term and might even be useful in the longer term.

The rest of military life is completely missing the point of turning a scumbag into productive members of society.

There's a show on tv whee they bring wayward teenagers into prison and try to scare them straight. Dies anyone know if anything like that actually works? I'd have my doubts that it does. Teaching them something new /coping strategies is essential to changing behaviour.

The military is an almost completely useless way acheive that. A focus effort to teach coping strategies and discipline etc. might be effective.

If the problems start at home, then sending them home will undo a lot of the good work in a lot of cases