Should Ireland have conscription?

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Those aspects (teamwork and doing jobs) would be useful in the short term and might even be useful in the longer term.

The rest of military life is completely missing the point of turning a scumbag into productive members of society.

There's a show on tv whee they bring wayward teenagers into prison and try to scare them straight. Dies anyone know if anything like that actually works? I'd have my doubts that it does. Teaching them something new /coping strategies is essential to changing behaviour.

The military is an almost completely useless way acheive that. A focus effort to teach coping strategies and discipline etc. might be effective.

If the problems start at home, then sending them home will undo a lot of the good work in a lot of cases

You have a specific kind of young person in mind but it's not only them I'm thinking of. However a lot of young people like that would not enjoy patronising motivational classroom-style workshops on coping strategies et. cetera. In my experience, anyway.
They learn by doing, sometimes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Those aspects (teamwork and doing jobs) would be useful in the short term and might even be useful in the longer term.

The rest of military life is completely missing the point of turning a scumbag into productive members of society.

There's a show on tv whee they bring wayward teenagers into prison and try to scare them straight. Dies anyone know if anything like that actually works? I'd have my doubts that it does. Teaching them something new /coping strategies is essential to changing behaviour.

The military is an almost completely useless way acheive that. A focus effort to teach coping strategies and discipline etc. might be effective.

If the problems start at home, then sending them home will undo a lot of the good work in a lot of cases

I really don't think that any part of military life is to turn scumbags into productive members of society. It's porbably the worst reason in the world for intorducing conscription in any case.

THe show where they take teenagers out into the wilderness and away from distractions would be far more likely to work than a fear-based prison scenario, but again - we're getting off topic.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There's a show on tv whee they bring wayward teenagers into prison and try to scare them straight. Dies anyone know if anything like that actually works?

Depends on whether they think they'd be better off in prison or out of it. I spoke to a young woman who told me she was better off in prison than out of it. Sad really

Barry Badrinath

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I really don't think that any part of military life is to turn scumbags into productive members of society. It's porbably the worst reason in the world for intorducing conscription in any case.

Lads with colourful pasts have turned their lives around as a result of military training.

But conscription? No, id say you are right.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Frosty McGiggleshaft wrote: »

Lads with colourful pasts have turned their lives around as a result of military training.

But conscription? No, id say you are right.

I'd support the idea of a stint's military service as a sentencing option for the courts, but only if the army were open to the idea and the offenders were kept away from serious voluntry recruits for at least the first 50% of it.

Stonedpilot

No, fighting in nonsense wars for billionaires only to return minus a few limbs.

Sickening in the UK, Heroes this and heroes that. Ask those suffering from Post undramatic stress disorder who killed and maimed how much of a hero he feels.

War doesn't benefit the soldiers, ever.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Stonedpilot wrote: »

No, fighting in nonsense wars for billionaires only to return minus a few limbs.

Sickening in the UK, Heroes this and heroes that. Ask those suffering from Post undramatic stress disorder who killed and maimed how much of a hero he feels.

War doesn't benefit the soldiers, ever.

We're talking about conscripting into the Irish army, not the US one.

Stonedpilot

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're talking about conscripting into the Irish army, not the US one.

Armies have to get used eventually, trust me if their was conscription and the army built up the elite would find some corrupt dangerous endeavor for them.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

You have a specific kind of young person in mind but it's not only them I'm thinking of. However a lot of young people like that would not enjoy patronising motivational classroom-style workshops on coping strategies et. cetera. In my experience, anyway. They learn by doing, sometimes.

I never mentioned classroom-style anything. I did mention applied learning but I think the military is at best a lazy way to do it. It's not for for the purpose you proposed but it's easier than thinking of something that actually might work.

I'm applying it to waywards because I can't think why already productive people would benefit from compulsory military service.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

I really don't think that any part of military life is to turn scumbags into productive members of society. It's porbably the worst reason in the world for intorducing conscription in any case.

I agree. It usually ends up with people who can't really cope with normal life and need to have a good lot of their life taken card of for them. In exchange they follow explicit instructions. Simples.

Forcing people into that life would be a bit of a disaster. Putting already productive people into hat life would teach them done new skills and mostly waste 2 years of their life when they could be doing something useful and learning on the job.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're talking about conscripting into the Irish army, not the US one.

Armies have to get used eventually, trust me if their was conscription and the army built up the elite would find some corrupt dangerous endeavor for them.

The Irish army is not going to invade anywhere any time soon, and definitely not for oil.

In any case, its when less likely the conscripted would be sent into war, unless were the party being invaded.

AnGaelach

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The intended outcome is to create unthinking/unquestioning instruments for the military.

Yes, everyone who joins the military is an idiot who just follows orders :rolleyes:

AnGaelach

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Forcing people into that life would be a bit of a disaster. Putting already productive people into hat life would teach them done new skills and mostly waste 2 years of their life when they could be doing something useful and learning on the job.

I presume you have some kind of study to back this up? I don't think Finland is lacking skilled or productive workers, and they've conscription for all males (I think 80% of them complete training). I hope you aren't just giving what you believe as a fact, without any supporting evidence.

AnGaelach

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Armies have to get used eventually, trust me if their was conscription and the army built up the elite would find some corrupt dangerous endeavor for them.

How many countries have Estonia or Finland invaded recently? Don't be daft.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

AnGaelach wrote: »

Yes, everyone who joins the military is an idiot who just follows orders :rolleyes:

Sgt. Hendrix: I want you to explain to these recruits how the worst soldier in the unit has managed to put them all to shame.
Reese: I just stopped thinking. I figured out that using my brain was the whole problem, not just here, but my entire life. If I just do exactly what I'm told, and nothing else, then everything gets easy. It's not even a question of smart or dumb. You just turn yourself into a tool. I'm much happier that way. I'm the world's happiest tool.
Sgt. Hendrix: You must be proud of yourself, son.
Reese: I don't know if I am or not. I'm waiting for you to tell me.
Sgt. Hendrix: [his voice begins to break with emotion] My God! A soldier like you comes along once in a thousand years.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

AnGaelach wrote: »

I presume you have some kind of study to back this up? I don't think Finland is lacking skilled or productive workers, and they've conscription for all males (I think 80% of them complete training). I hope you aren't just giving what you believe as a fact, without any supporting evidence.

Not strictly speaking true, as far as I know - in Finalnd, there are alternative types of civlian service that don't involve the military.

screamer

Absolutely not, conscription is an absolute crime against freedom, forcing someone to join up, and if war breaks out, forcing someone to fight, to die?
I am absolutely 100% against it. No land is worth a drop of human blood.

I do think that the gardai and army training should be the same for a year, and then the specialise into garda training or army training. Teach the gardai to handle weapons, to be superfit etc. I think that would be beneficial alright.

BTW OP do you know anyone who was ever conscripted and forced to fight a war, to kill or be killed, to watch their friends die in their arms all because some politicians put a gun into their hands and told them to go and fight for their country??? cause I do, and the damage that does to a person is beyond comprehension, and something they have to live with for the rest of their lives. It's disgraceful.

El_Duderino 09

AnGaelach wrote:

Yes, everyone who joins the military is an idiot who just follows orders

Presumably they need some people to give orders too, but were talking about conscripts, not volunteers.

AnGaelach wrote:

I presume you have some kind of study to back this up? I don't think Finland is lacking skilled or productive workers, and they've conscription for all males (I think 80% of them complete training). I hope you aren't just giving what you believe as a fact, without any supporting evidence.

Was that a long winded way of asking if that's my opinion? Yes, it's my opinion that 2 years of conscription would have little or no additional value to someone who already has a sense of responsibility and is ready to leave school and work or go to uni. Decent parents will know it's their job to instill those values. Listless parents might be more inclined to sublet that Jun to the military, once the child is conscripted

Jimmy the scumbag might benefit a bit. The army doesn't usually attract the people with the greatest prospects of making it in the real world. I'm sure there are exceptions.

Manic Moran

super_furry wrote: »

I'd go to jail before I'd join the army. I have no intention of ever killing anyone and don't want to be trained to do so.

That's fine. We can find work for conscientious objectors too. Usually we turn them into medics, nurses and doctors.

Montgolfier

Let's face it Ireland is never going to war! A mandtory program to teach young men values and how to deal with testosterone make better choices, wouldn't be a waste of time. A lot of young men could use a mentor it might even reduce suicide rates.