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Should Ireland have conscription?

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    #92
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    I'm not a big fan of servitude so no.


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    #93
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    I do actually think the naval service needs some pretty significant investment. We have very substantial territorial waters and should be patrolling them more imo


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    #94
    TheOven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭TheOven


    seamus wrote: »
    No. We would be pissing money away on military spending that we don't need.

    There is absolutely zero evidence from any other country that mandatory military time results in less criminals or "hardens" people up. That's a romantic notion.

    I would massively support a programme however where school leavers could get a college place and put it on hold for a year or two, to engage in some kind of training with specific groups - mountain rescue, civil defence, fire service, ambulance or military. Most of these groups are badly in need of support, and the more people who have done some work with them, the more likely they are to rejoin them after college, or otherwise support them at events or for funding, etc.

    Throwing people into military service after school does nothing to help the country and the person's local community.

    I would support something like this. Forcing everyone into the military will just make things worse for those who want to be there. Focus on helping those who want to actually take part but let those with no interest go on with their lives.


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    #95
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I do actually think the naval service needs some pretty significant investment. We have very substantial territorial waters and should be patrolling them more imo

    If the navy we do have was doing that instead of acting as water taxi at the behest of the likes of Sutherland and Merkel we wouldn't be doing too bad.


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    #96
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    If the navy we do have was doing that instead of acting as water taxi at the behest of the likes of Sutherland and Merkel we wouldn't be doing too bad.
    I think saving lives is a fair use of their time actually. In any case, 1 or 2 boats in the Med ain't the issue. We need about 10 Samuel Beckett class patrol ships going around our coast full time. Ireland's lack of a maritime outlook is probably the weirdest part of our society, I simply don't get it, we have such rich waters in terms of food and fuel but we hardly eat any fish and don't have any offshore wind farms or rigs. Utter madness.


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    #97
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,208 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    frag420 wrote: »
    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Just wondering what people think about it. Say spending a year in the military and then spending x number of days per year training.

    Your vote won't be public.

    Doing what exactly? We would be better of spending the year learning to code or learning a new language like Mandarin than learning how to light a fire in a strong wind or making a shelter out of twigs and fresh air!
    Ah jaysus. Why do people always roll out these two. Not every eejit needs to "code". Sorry nerds, but other than wanting to be a professional programmer there is no *need* for the average person to know how to "code". If you want to learn it yourself, by all means go ahead. Plenty of free resources online. Same for Mandarin. Learn it youself if it's that useful and come back to let us know how you got on. The only Chinese you'll ever need to know is how to say "#2 spicy chickenballs with rice". That is assuming the Red invasion doesn't happen!


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    #98
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,208 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Grayson wrote: »
    Compulsory service might not be a bad idea. Give people free college/education if they spend a year afterwards working for a charity, NGO or in government service in some manner. It's a handy way for them to get experience. I wouldn't make it compulsory military service. The military isn't for everyone and it's best to allow people to serve in a manner which benefits both them and the country.
    It's a simple enough system but it would be a nightmare making sure it's not abused and that it's implemented without being too much of a bureaucratic nightmare for everyone involved.

    Sure they fecking practically had that and everyone got their knickers in a twist. And that eejit Murphy got into the Dail crying about it.
    Jobsbridge schmobsbridge


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    #99
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Not at all, militarization dehumanizes people, and there's enough 'mad dog' weirdos on this planet as it is. I've worked with ex army guys, some sound, some complete arseholes and some struggling with mental health and addiction issues in which I think could be related to their military experiences. Militarization has a tendency to create bullies. Stick the money and resources into far more important public services


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    #100
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,093 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Del2005 wrote:
    The answer to every problem is that it's someone else's responsibility. It's not the Armies, or any other organisations, job to teach discipline and endurance. It's the responsibility of the parent(s) or guardian(s) to teach these things to children.

    Subletting parenting to the government sounds great. What could go wrong?

    In other news, I hate the Nanny State.


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    #101
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    It's a great idea for discipline! Some of the people I had to teach in UCD could have done with it.


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    #102
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The answer to every problem is that it's someone else's responsibility.
    It's not the Armies, or any other organisations, job to teach discipline and endurance. It's the responsibility of the parent(s) or guardian(s) to teach these things to children.

    Unfortunately some of them don't do that.


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    #103
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Subletting parenting to the government sounds great. What could go wrong?

    In other news, I hate the Nanny State.

    These would be eighteen year olds and upwards..


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    #104
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Yea it's not raising your kids. It's providing life long skills to eighteen year old teenagers.


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    #105
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,944 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Ah jaysus. Why do people always roll out these two. Not every eejit needs to "code". Sorry nerds, but other than wanting to be a professional programmer there is no *need* for the average person to know how to "code". If you want to learn it yourself, by all means go ahead. Plenty of free resources online. Same for Mandarin. Learn it youself if it's that useful and come back to let us know how you got on. The only Chinese you'll ever need to know is how to say "#2 spicy chickenballs with rice". That is assuming the Red invasion doesn't happen!

    So learning to strip an assault rifle is a useful skill in a country where it's impossible to get a licence for a shotgun that can take 5 cartridges.

    At least teaching coding, or even basic maths, or Mandarin might be useful for someone later in life, I don't see much use for being trained to kill others in later life.


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    #106
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Maybe some kind of military service yes. But i think it goes without saying that nobody should ever be forced to have to go to war and put their own life in danger or harm another person


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    #107
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Maybe some kind of military service yes. But i think it goes without saying that nobody should ever be forced to have to go to war and put their own life in danger or harm another person

    wars should just be prevented in the first place, no human should experience them


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    #108
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,093 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Widdershins wrote:
    These would be eighteen year olds and upwards..


    Oh yes. No need to parent children. Warehouse them until they finish school and retrospectively sublet parenting to the government. Then blame the government of anything goes wrong.

    Conscription is ridiculous. It's parents job to teach discipline etc.


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    #109
    TheDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    The One Doctor wrote: »
    If the government forced me to become a fighter pilot, I'd reluctantly accept.

    Otherwise fuck that. No sane person should want to learn to kill people as a trade.

    And yes, I'm aware of the hypocrisy.

    Be some eye opener if it transpired you were brilliant at it! :D


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    #110
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    I wouldn't ask the generation below me to do something I never would have ever wanted to do in a million years myself. The only way I'd ever agree to conscription is that everyone in the country under the age of 60 would have to do at least one year's service. Might soften the cough of some of the people I see calling for people younger than themselves to be forced into military service.

    Nothing worse than someone in their thirties or forties giving out about the youth of today and demanding conscription. We had it handy as fook as teenagers…


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    #111
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    No i don't agree with forcing adults to give up a year of their lives doing something they hate.


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    #112
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    wars should just be prevented in the first place, no human should experience them

    True but there are plenty of people willing to go to war , for whatever reason ,so forcing those who don't want to isn't really necessary or ethical


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    #113
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I wouldn't ask the generation below me to do something I never would have ever wanted to do in a million years myself. The only way I'd ever agree to conscription is that everyone in the country under the age of 60 would have to do at least one year's service. Might soften the cough of some of the people I see calling for people younger than themselves to be forced into military service.

    Nothing worse than someone in their thirties or forties giving out about the youth of today and demanding conscription. We had it handy as fook as teenagers…

    I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it. At 18 you're not likely to have as many obstacles to national service. I think it would do a lot of older people a lot of good, too. I'd have said the same when I was 18.


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    #114
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    The ones it would be aimed at - the ones who supposedly need toughening up, or straightening out - are the ones who'd get out of it with a sob story and a dodgy doctor's cert.


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    #115
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Del2005 wrote: »
    So learning to strip an assault rifle is a useful skill in a country where it's impossible to get a licence for a shotgun that can take 5 cartridges.

    At least teaching coding, or even basic maths, or Mandarin might be useful for someone later in life, I don't see much use for being trained to kill others in later life.

    You learn more than that in the army, team work, orienteering, hand to hand defense, discipline , physical fitness benefits


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    #116
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    osarusan wrote: »
    The ones it would be aimed at - the ones who need toughening up, or straightening out - are the ones who'd get out of it with a sob story and a dodgy doctor's cert.

    Indeed. Trump would be a good example of that. Some people would be far to sensitive for the army.


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    #117
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Widdershins wrote: »
    I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it. At 18 you're not likely to have as many obstacles to national service. I think it would do a lot of older people a lot of good, too. I'd have said the same when I was 18.

    I wouldn't have wanted to do it then and wouldn't want to do it now. If people are so concerned about life skills being taught, make DIY compulsory in school, don't stick kids in the military! It's bloody ridiculous… The kids today are arseholes? I was an arsehole when I was that age too. I didn't need to be put in the fooking army to grow up - life helped me along with that all by itself. Bollocks to conscription is what I say!


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    #118
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I wouldn't have wanted to do it then and wouldn't want to do it now. If people are so concerned about life skills being taught, make DIY compulsory in school, don't stick kids in the military! It's bloody ridiculous… The kids today are arseholes? I was an arsehole when I was that age too. I didn't need to be put in the fooking army to grow up - life helped me along with that all by itself. Bollocks to conscription is what I say!

    Well there were other suggestions apart from military service. DIY is a good idea. Although most schools have some kind of home economics and a lot of people still don't have a clue how to cook when they leave school.


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    #119
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    If, as people are claiming, being in the army is such a universal, silver bullet solution to discipline, self worth, leadership, confidence, mental well being etc. why do you hear so much about veteran mental health issues, homelessness, suicide, unemployment?

    Why do so many ex servicemen need charities and support services?

    If the benefits of conscription are so obvious and simple, why is it increasingly being abolished in many countries? Wouldn't there be a hugely visible difference between countries with and without it?

    Take Latvia and Estonia for example. One has conscription, the other doesn't. Is there any notion out there that Estonians are much more disciplined, better at team work, confident etc?


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    #120
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,001 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    wakka12 wrote: »
    True but there are plenty of people willing to go to war , for whatever reason ,so forcing those who don't want to isn't really necessary or ethical

    we need to look at why wars occur, imperial nations such as america are major culprits in this, and its up to all of us to pull them up on this. i dont believe in conscription either, i do truly believe it dehumanizes people.


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    #121
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    If, as people are claiming, being in the army is such a universal, silver bullet solution to discipline, self worth, leadership, confidence, mental well being etc. why do you hear so much about veteran mental health issues, homelessness, suicide, unemployment?

    Why do so many ex servicemen need charities and support services?

    It's almost inevitable where someone has been through very serious fighting. And the supports aren't always there for them once they finish their army careers. A big factor would be mental health. Psychological health and suitability weren't even properly taken into account when training conscripts or sending any soldiers into combat until quite recently but now it is.


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