Should Ireland have conscription?

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 7:18pm

Widdershins wrote: »

It's almost inevitable where someone has been through very serious fighting. And the supports aren't always there for them once they finish their army careers. A big factor would be mental health. Psychological health and suitability weren't even properly taken into account when training conscripts or sending any soldiers into combat until quite recently but now it is.

armys still dont give a ****e about soldiers, never have, never will. plenty of 'suitable' people being sent to war and coming home with ptsd etc.

Widdershins · 07-12-2016 7:19pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

armys still dont give a ****e about soldiers, never have, never will. plenty of 'suitable' people being sent to war and coming home with ptsd etc.

Speaking from experience?

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 7:26pm

Widdershins wrote: »

Speaking from experience?

speaking from watching a few documentaries, i do know some ex army folks though, some really are very badly damaged from their experiences. many struggling with mental health and addiction issues. bullying would be commonplace in the armed forces. im trying to find a documentary that was aired on bbc a couple of years ago about ptsd. very disturbing to see some of the young lads coming home from afghanistan. unfortunately one of the participants of the documentary committed suicide. was deeply tormented from his experiences. ministry of defence didnt give a **** about him when he arrived home. family were at their wits end trying to help him, but unfortunately all their efforts failed. very disturbing documentary. im sure procedures have vastly improved to try prevent these issues and to help those that do become affected, but as i said, no human should experience war.

steddyeddy · 07-12-2016 7:30pm

I think Ireland's middle class would struggle to cope with discipline and regiment.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-12-2016 7:35pm

Widdershins wrote:

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it.

You mean anyone without a family or a job?

Widdershins wrote:

At 18 you're not likely to have as many obstacles to national service. I think it would do a lot of older people a lot of good, too. I'd have said the same when I was 18.

How was your tour in the military? You must have at least joined one of the international versions of the Peace Corps, right? Or is it something that would benefit others in lots of ways, but you don't need to brush up on any of those things?

GreenFolder2 · 07-12-2016 7:36pm

No. What would the point be?!

El_Duderino 09 · 07-12-2016 7:38pm

CrabRevolution wrote:

If, as people are claiming, being in the army is such a universal, silver bullet solution to discipline, self worth, leadership, confidence, mental well being etc. why do you hear so much about veteran mental health issues, homelessness, suicide, unemployment?

Well to be fair that's usually after serving in a war coupled with becoming institutionalised and removed from civilian life. That's not what anyone here us proposing so I wouldn't worry about those particular problems.

Widdershins · 07-12-2016 7:40pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You mean anyone without a family or a job?

How was your tour in the military? You must have at least joined one of the international versions of the Peace Corps, right? Or is it something that would benefit others in lots of ways, but you don't need to brush up on any of those things?

Anyone with a family and a job would presumably be excluded, amongst other people deemed unsuitable for various reason.

I'm unclear on what you're asking. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text, I find. I've no intention of sharing my life story with a complete stranger on a site full of strangers.
There's always room for improvement but as I previously said I'd have been happy to be conscripted for a year's service when I was eighteen. If I was conscripted now, it would turn my life upside down.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-12-2016 7:45pm

Widdershins wrote:

I'm unclear on what you're asking. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text, I find. I've no intention of sharing my life story with a complete stranger on a site full of strangers. There's always room for improvement but as I previously said I'd have been happy to be conscripted for a year's service when I was eighteen. If I was conscripted now, it would turn my life upside down.

It was sarcasm but I don't want your life story. It's clear from what you said that you haven't served even though you reckon you and most other people would gladly serve. You created a context for conscripts which automatically excluded yourself (family or job).

If you really wanted to serve, you would have. Plenty of people with a family who actually want to serve, do so.

Widdershins · 07-12-2016 7:53pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was sarcasm but I don't want your life story. It's clear from what you said that you haven't served even though you reckon you and most other people would gladly serve. You created a context for conscripts which automatically excluded yourself (family or job).

If you really wanted to serve, you would have. Plenty of people with a family who actually want to serve, do so.

No..I don't think most others would gladly serve..I have no idea what most people would do. Maybe you're mixing it up with my comment that I think it would be beneficial for lots of people. It's not only military service being mooted, it's about other forms of service, too.

Nor did I mention a family or job. I wouldn't be suitable for me, or I wouldn't be suitable for it, now.

Anyone with family who decides to serve has assessed the viability of that career choice and decided it's possible. We can't assume it's possible for everyone so there would have to be exemptions like that.

Your psychic powers are a bit out of tune, I'm afraid..

Manic Moran · 07-12-2016 8:15pm

Frosty McGiggleshaft wrote: »

Military service, no.

Civil, emergency and community service, yes.

This.

As a member of a volunteer military, I very much would like to know that the person whose life I'm depending on actually volunteered for the position.
That said, the US's position of 'learn a trade' is actually not a bad thing. Not everyone only learns to kill in the Army. We do everything, from repairing vehicles and airplanes through cooking to construction and demolition. These are useful skills in the civilian world.

A number of European countries require "something." Military is an option, but a number of non-military options are also available. As another alternative, Greece has (or at least, had, when I was younger) a 'scale' of options. You could do a short amount of time on a ship at sea (about 18 months), two years in the Army, six years in the police force, or whatever. My uncle took his 2 years in the Air Force. He learned to maintain helicopters, and ended up in civilian employment in charge of aircraft procurement for Olympic Airways. I don't think he was the worse off for his time in uniform.

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 8:19pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

This.

As a member of a volunteer military, I very much would like to know that the person whose life I'm depending on actually volunteered for the position.
That said, the US's position of 'learn a trade' is actually not a bad thing. Not everyone only learns to kill in the Army. We do everything, from repairing vehicles and airplanes through cooking to construction and demolition. These are useful skills in the civilian world.

A number of European countries require "something." Military is an option, but a number of non-military options are also available. As another alternative, Greece has (or at least, had, when I was younger) a 'scale' of options. You could do a short amount of time on a ship at sea (about 18 months), two years in the Army, six years in the police force, or whatever. My uncle took his 2 years in the Air Force. He learned to maintain helicopters, and ended up in civilian employment in charge of aircraft procurement for Olympic Airways. I don't think he was the worse off for his time in uniform.

or maybe we can stop making military death machines, and start making machinery and equipment that positively helps the human race. maybe these civilians can help make and maintain this equipment.

Dr Jakub · 07-12-2016 8:21pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

or maybe we can stop making military death machines, and start making machinery and equipment that positively helps the human race. maybe these civilians can help make and maintain this equipment.

And when the other tribe invades you? What then?

Widdershins · 07-12-2016 8:25pm

Dr Jakub wrote: »

And when the other tribe invades you? What then?

Yep. The idea depends on everyone else wanting the same thing,peace, demilitarisation and global friendship, which of course they don't.

Imagine being reliant on all of the ''but I don't wanna!'' people then..

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 8:26pm

Dr Jakub wrote: »

And when the other tribe invades you? What then?

if we created economic and financial systems that actually benefitted the majority and werent like what we have now, i.e. parasitic, predatory and destructive of our political, economical, social and environmental systems, we mightnt have to worry too much about invasions!

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 8:37pm

Widdershins wrote: »

Yep. The idea depends on everyone else wanting the same thing,peace, demilitarisation and global friendship, which of course they don't.

Imagine being reliant on all of the ''but I don't wanna!'' people then..

believe it or not, the majority on this planet actually want peace, unfortunately some minor groups, some who have sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies have chosen otherwise which has a major negative effects on us all

Dr Jakub · 07-12-2016 8:37pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

if we created economic and financial systems that actually benefitted the majority and werent like what we have now, i.e. parasitic, predatory and destructive of our political, economical, social and environmental systems, we mightnt have to worry too much about invasions!

Maybe one day we'll live in a utopia, or maybe Christ will return and peace will reign but until then we'll need a military.

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 8:45pm

Dr Jakub wrote: »

Maybe one day we'll live in a utopia, or maybe Christ will return and peace will reign but until then we'll need a military.

hmmm lets think about this for a second, country 'a' develops nuclear weapons, country 'b' decides, theyre doing it, so we re doing it. how exactly does this benefit mankind as a whole? dont forget, a person like mr trump believes, 'whats the point in having nuclear weapons unless you can use them'!!!! :rolleyes:

4ensic15 · 07-12-2016 10:02pm

Digital Solitude wrote: »

I personally would deem it a silly idea, out current armed force is less than 10,000 strong and is doing pretty fine, up on 70,000 people sit the leaving every year, IMO

This is why this proposal is silly. Putting every leaving cert student through six months basic training would mean an intake into the military of 30,000 every 6 months. there is not enough accommodation, training grounds and instruction rooms for them. A recruit platoon of 35 has a lieutenant, a sergeant and some corporals. Add to that the other personnel such as cooks, medical, drivers and armourers needed to keep training going. Consider the clerical effort in contacting all proposed conscripts, hearing excuses appeal, dealing with deserters and conscientious objectors.

The core army would need to be expanded to triple its current size simply to handle the work created by having such a training load. Several thousand civil servants would also be needed plus additional gardaí.

It is unworkable and impractical, will never happen and is a waste of time to discuss.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-12-2016 10:02pm

Widdershins wrote:

No..I don't think most others would gladly serve..I have no idea what most people would do. Maybe you're mixing it up with my comment that I think it would be beneficial for lots of people.

You said you were sure anyone who didn't have the conditions you have (job/family) would gladly serve...

Widdershins wrote:

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it.

Widdershins wrote:

Nor did I mention a family or job. I wouldn't be suitable for me, or I wouldn't be suitable for it, now.

In relation to jobs and families you said this...

Widdershins wrote:

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it.

Maybe I'm missing something. Looks to me like you think anyone who's family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it...

super_furry · 07-12-2016 10:09pm

I'd go to jail before I'd join the army. I have no intention of ever killing anyone and don't want to be trained to do so.

Widdershins · 07-12-2016 10:17pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You said you were sure anyone who didn't have the conditions you have (job/family) would gladly serve...

In relation to jobs and families you said this...

Maybe I'm missing something. Looks to me like you think anyone who's family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it...

Yes. Not MY circumstances. You mentioned family and jobs in connection to me. (''You created a context for conscripts which automatically excluded yourself (family or job).''

And, in thinking most people who have the time and no such commitments, would be happy to do it, I was being overly optimistic. From subsequent comments I realised even people with nothing at all to do probably wouldn't want to take part in any obligatory community service. I'm not sure why that matters any more than someone saying nobody at all would go for it.

super_furry · 07-12-2016 10:17pm

Community service is not the same as military service and you can't even remotely compare the two.

JupiterKid · 07-12-2016 10:22pm

No, but some sort of civil defence and basic first aid training for people might be a good idea.

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 10:23pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

No, but some sort of civil defence and basic first aid training for people might be a good idea.

should be thought in our schools

El_Duderino 09 · 07-12-2016 10:39pm

Widdershins wrote:

And, in thinking most people who have the time and no such commitments, would be happy to do it, I was being overly optimistic. From subsequent comments I realised even people with nothing at all to do probably wouldn't want to take part in any obligatory community service. I'm not sure why that matters any more than someone saying nobody at all would go for it.

Fair play for thinking about it. I imagine a lot of people are much happier to sign others up once they know they're precluded for service themselves. I think if you ask people if service age you'd get a much lower number than people above service age, for example.

That's why I think compulsory military service is a bit like Brexit. As demographics the older people voted to leave while the younger people voted to remain (particularly the ones who will have to live their entire adult life with the consequences of the referendum)

'I'll sign, you soldier' is an easier decision to make than having to do both yourself.

road_high · 07-12-2016 11:29pm

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-12-2016 11:31pm

road_high wrote: »

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

... or it might do the exact opposite.

You can't force free individuals to feel something like that - they either feel it of their own volition or they don't - and you can't force people to respect something.

Wanderer78 · 07-12-2016 11:32pm

road_high wrote: »

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

its extremely important to question authority always, as what they do and say isnt always in the interest of all!

road_high · 07-12-2016 11:36pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its extremely important to question authority always, as what they do and say isnt always in the interest of all!

In some instances it is, but certainly not routinely always. Anything else is akin to rent a mob style justice ala the free water brigade. Respecting authority and believing in ridiculous leftie conspiracies are two very different things.

Should Ireland have conscription?

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