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Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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    #62
    Didas
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭Didas


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think it's a pretty good term, whoever came up with it. It encapsulates the whole aggression, degradation and intimidation involved in the objectification. There is no concern as to whether the woman wants to be backed into a corner and pawed, language like smashing her back door in implies violence and certainly does not suggest that consent or mutual affection is an issue etc.

    There is a huge jump from using vulgar language to behaviour like this infairness. A culture of backing women into corners could absolutely be described as rape culture, however a culture of this behaviour doesn't exist imo. Any man acting like this on a night out in Ireland for example, wouldn't be long getting kicked around the place.

    The use of vulgar language is immature and unpleasant but it is not in the same league as what you've described above. A man putting on a bravado and using vulgar descriptions is not automatically one who would ever even come close to considering actually behaving like that.


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    #63
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It doesn't to me anyway....

    Well whether it does to you or not is your opinion. Thats like saying there's a chainsaw murdering culture because a few locals joke about it, and "have been known" to egg each other on to commit a chainsaw murder. One of them even used a chainsaw to cut down a tree once!

    I do know one woman who was raped. She said the rapist was the soundest, most welcoming person you could meet. He was everybody's friend, as far away from chauvinistic as you could imagine. Now THAT is what real predatory behaviour is all about. Is there a culture of that in Ireland? Are there groups of people who plan rapes and base their identity on being rapists? Thankfully, no.


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    #64
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,155 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Sand wrote: »
    The belief that there is a rape culture in Ireland is a bit hysterical so I wouldn't be throwing stones.

    A belief that someone cares about the contents of a whatsapp group but would not give a toss about a woman who's been raped and then lashed by the authorities in some hell hole is hysterical.

    Is there an example of that ever happening. Is there even the slightest bit of evidence to justify it? It's just hysterical hyperbole.


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    #65
    D0NNELLY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭D0NNELLY


    SB_Part2 wrote: »
    People who don't think there's a rape culture in Ireland are completely deluded.
    D0NNELLY wrote: »
    Ignorance is bliss eh?
    b_mac2 wrote: »
    Explain to us why you think that please.

    After 37 years in this country, I've never encountered this rape culture, so I'm obviously living in happy ignorance.


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    #66
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,834 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    There is a discussion to be had on sexual assault in this country. Unfortunately there is no discussion to be had with Ms O''Neill and her ilk. It's their way or the highway. No room for discussing issues that effect men or boys in these matters because in their world view such things never happen in a patriarchal society.

    This talk of rape culture involving cat calling and unwanted attention on a night out is a nonsense. If you want to know what a rape culture looks like then we only have to delve into the inner workings of the Roman Catholic Church. Now that is what a rape culture looked like. Hiding child rapist, moving them around to rape with impunity, covering their tracks and shaming the victims into silence.

    Cat-calling! seriously get a grip.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    me_right_one wrote: »
    I do know one woman who was raped. She said the rapist was the soundest, most welcoming person you could meet. He was everybody's friend, as far away from chauvinistic as you could imagine. Now THAT is what real predatory behaviour is all about. Is there a culture of that in Ireland? Are there groups of people who plan rapes and base their identity on being rapists? Thankfully, no.

    I think that is to confuse rape and rape culture. Rape is rape, rape culture IMO is language and actions that borrow from the violence and degradation that also may be the hallmark of rape...but not amounting to rape. And it certainly does not suggest that all rapists are crude Neanderthals.


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    #68
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,515 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Grayson wrote: »
    A belief that someone cares about the contents of a whatsapp group but would not give a toss about a woman who's been raped and then lashed by the authorities in some hell hole is hysterical.

    Is there an example of that ever happening. Is there even the slightest bit of evidence to justify it? It's just hysterical hyperbole.

    You're making points from a position where you seriously consider there is a rape culture in Ireland. That is hysterical hyperbole.


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tonygun wrote: »
    There is a huge jump from using vulgar language to behaviour like this infairness. A culture of backing women into corners could absolutely be described as rape culture, however a culture of this behaviour doesn't exist imo. Any man acting like this on a night out in Ireland for example, wouldn't be long getting kicked around the place...

    I know a few women who it happens to regularly enough, who can pick out fellows in my locality and say how they don't understand no, which ones plead and which ones get edgy and which ones use a mix of both. I have seen it happen and told fellows to drop it, I have seen fellows told to leave parties because of it. It certainly exists.


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    #70
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,834 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Grayson wrote: »
    A belief that someone cares about the contents of a whatsapp group but would not give a toss about a woman who's been raped and then lashed by the authorities in some hell hole is hysterical.

    Is there an example of that ever happening. Is there even the slightest bit of evidence to justify it? It's just hysterical hyperbole.

    Well here is Ms O'Neill's article on the UCD agri student witch-hunt.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/i-wonder-if-my-ex-boyfriends-thought-female-sexuality-was-something-to-be-laughed-at-383021.html


    I've not been able to find anything she has written on women's treatment in some hell hole of a country with anything like the same gusto or emotion.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #71
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    The problem with the entire "rape culture" mantra is that like all theories, it can be moulded to mean whatever one wants it to mean. The scale starts at the act itself but then casts the net wide enough so that any form of the "male gaze" can be viewed as a being a part of it. This is where it runs into problems (and there are many), almost everybody (asexuals aside) buys magazines, watches movies, tv shows, adverts, music videos, video games etc where the gaze will be present, and this goes for both sexes. So, when you follow it down that rabbit hole, you find out that pretty much everybody who is living today is part of this grand conspiracy to normalise rape.

    The fact is, it is only vested interests pushing the whole idea. It is no surprise, that the whole concept has been largely discredited and rape crisis networks do not subscribe to it in any way, shape or form. For example RAINN has suggested that by pushing the myth of rape culture, it makes their job harder to help victims. This is what they wrote regarding the subject of "rape culture":
    RAINN wrote:
    In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

    While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.

    https://www.rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf


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    #72
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think that is to confuse rape and rape culture. Rape is rape, rape culture IMO is language and actions that borrow from the violence and degradation that also may be the hallmark of rape...but not amounting to rape. And it certainly does not suggest that all rapists are crude Neanderthals.

    Seriously Conor, it is YOU who are confusing things. You cannot say there is drinking, and separately, drinking culture. If people hang around in groups and meet up at agreed places specifically to drink, then thats drinking culture. The two cannot be separated.

    To say there is rape culture in Ireland, but without the actual rape, is disingenuous to say the least, and dangerous at most. You are almost accusing anyone who sees a girl he fancies and smiles at her of being a rapist. Or a potential rapist. Or a participant in a rape "culture". They're some leaps you're making there!


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    #73
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,155 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Sand wrote: »
    You're making points from a position where you seriously consider there is a rape culture in Ireland. That is hysterical hyperbole.

    This whole argument is about whether rape culture exists. There's a big problem with the argument. People are creating a definition to fit with their view. Nearly everyone arguing against each other has a different opinion about what it is so there's differing opinions about how widespread it is.

    However to say that someone arguing that rape culture exists doesn't give a flying fcuk about women being beaten and raped abroad, and cares more about the contents of a group chat, is stupid. It has absolutely no basis in reality. It's hysterical. It's without foundation. It'd be like me saying that everyone arguing that rape culture doesn't exist is in fact a rapist. Firstly it's a generalisation and secondly it has no actual foundation.


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    #74
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I know a few women who it happens to regularly enough, who can pick out fellows in my locality and say how they don't understand no, which ones plead and which ones get edgy and which ones use a mix of both. I have seen it happen and told fellows to drop it, I have seen fellows told to leave parties because of it. It certainly exists.
    Wouldn't this be considered anti-rape culture by the proponents of rape culture?
    Never seems to get a mention though, given how accepted it is and how much bigger it is than rape culture.


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    me_right_one wrote: »
    Seriously Conor, it is YOU who are confusing things. You cannot say there is drinking, and separately, drinking culture. If people hang around in groups and meet up at agreed places specifically to drink, then thats drinking culture. The two cannot be separated.

    To say there is rape culture in Ireland, but without the actual rape, is disingenuous to say the least, and dangerous at most. You are almost accusing anyone who sees a girl he fancies and smiles at her of being a rapist. Or a potential rapist. Or a participant in a rape "culture". They're some leaps you're making there!

    Are you saying rape culture cannot exist without the act of rape?

    If so, I disagree with your interpretation of that term.

    And I think smiling at someone and sending them dick pics are not remotely alike. And I don't see that objecting to behaviour like the former, or men pawing women, or refusing to take no, or using very violent language in connection with sex, is that dangerous at all. What are the dangers in asking for respect and civility?


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    #76
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    SB_Part2 wrote: »
    People who don't think there's a rape culture in Ireland are completely deluded.

    Ah yes, when Pearse said "if I die, it shall be from the excess of love that I bear the Gael" he was obviously fetishising the raping of Gaels.


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    #77
    The Wolverine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭The Wolverine


    sashafierce wrote: »
    When I hear the term "rape culture" the last place I think of is Ireland. What about Ethiopia, India or the Congo where there's an actual rape culture?
    Not to say rape doesn't occur here but to say that there is a culture of it, IMO is totally false.

    Because having to actually go to genuine real dangerous place such as parts of South Africa where rape is really common due to witch doctor telling you your HIV will be cured by raping a virgin would entail having to actually do some real work and putting themselves in harm's way like say the African female misfortunes I once saw who had almost a military like compound to protect young girls in I think Johannesburg

    Compared to having a cushy life making BS claims in an overall safe country through Twitter while relaxing on a couch having a glass of vino


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    #78
    jameorahiely
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭jameorahiely


    Rape culture, white privilage in ireland, this award winning author had to ask twitter how to turn off the non printing characters formatting in microsoft word. :pac:


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    #79
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Think rape culture is different to rape.

    I mean, rape is rape. Rape culture is the whole depiction or representation of women in a crude or vulgar way as being simply sexual objects, hence from language like "I'd smash her back door in" to dick pics to the inability of some men to understand the word "no" (I don't mean in the context of sex, but even in bars or clubs where you see fellows after a few drinks going for the whining or abusive approach once a woman has made it clear she's not interested).

    Hope you're being facetious.

    Men are depicted in crude and vulgar ways too, or do you think Tom Hardy and Chris Hemsworth walking being goggled by women is somehow less "crude or vulgar" than men goggling Mila Kunis and Jennifer Aniston?


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    #80
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,515 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Grayson wrote: »
    This whole argument is about whether rape culture exists. There's a big problem with the argument. People are creating a definition to fit with their view. Nearly everyone arguing against each other has a different opinion about what it is so there's differing opinions about how widespread it is.

    However to say that someone arguing that rape culture exists doesn't give a flying fcuk about women being beaten and raped abroad, and cares more about the contents of a group chat, is stupid. It has absolutely no basis in reality. It's hysterical. It's without foundation. It'd be like me saying that everyone arguing that rape culture doesn't exist is in fact a rapist. Firstly it's a generalisation and secondly it has no actual foundation.

    The reason why its so hard to define is because its not actually a thing. Its just hysterical hyperbole, a generalisation which has no actual foundation but which you buy into. Then you ironically considering other viewpoints to be hysterical, whilst buying into rape culture as a serious topic.


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    #81
    endagibson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭endagibson


    Is there free admission to the raping on Culture Night?


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    #82
    Star_Nupa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 107 ✭✭Star_Nupa


    Specialun wrote: »
    The worst thing is that her fans wont debate anything..theyre either sarcastic or rude that you have a different opinion. When you back them into a corner they just stop conversing..its almost a they vs us sceniro

    Exactly. Like the clown on page 1 claiming people are deluded if they think rape culture doesn't exist. That's it. Nothing whatsoever to back it up.


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    #83
    Capoeira Method
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6 ✭Capoeira Method


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But is it not rape culture amongst those arseholes?

    I mean, I don't think the claim is that all of society subscribes to rape culture, more that it is a trait that is more evident amongst an element in society?

    I can't say I know women who promote rape culture, but I do know some who get dick pics, lots of very intimidatory attention etc. and they just seem to pass it off as something that many men do. So they can be said to tolerate rape culture.

    Many women show their cleavage to the world without consent.


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    #84
    Capoeira Method
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6 ✭Capoeira Method


    Admiring the form of the opposite or same sex is not "rape culture", it is normal and part if the attraction process. We wouldn't be here idmf tgese mechanism didn't exist, the species would have died out.


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Hope you're being facetious.

    Men are depicted in crude and vulgar ways too, or do you think Tom Hardy and Chris Hemsworth walking being goggled by women is somehow less "crude or vulgar" than men goggling Mila Kunis and Jennifer Aniston?

    I think there is a world of difference between saying a person, male or female, is attractive, and saying you'd leave them bleeding or split them or smash their flaps in. I think the latter is crude and vulgar, I don't think the former is crude or vulgar, not sure how you conflate the two.

    "Hope you're being facetious", to borrow a phrase...


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capoeira Method wrote: »
    Admiring the form of the opposite or same sex is not "rape culture"....

    I absolutely agree.


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    #87
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Star_Nupa wrote: »
    Exactly. Like the clown on page 1 claiming people are deluded if they think rape culture doesn't exist. That's it. Nothing whatsoever to back it up.

    When the experts on the front lines dealing with rapes everyday say it doesn't exist, then that should tell you something. It is only the usual ideologues who seem to be hell bent on telling us all otherwise.


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    #88
    CaptainInsano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭CaptainInsano


    I think she's a woeful spokesperson for the issue that only alienates and divides rather than reach people. Similar to the vegan movement, however noble the cause, if you speak down to people, refuse to engage in debate and allow your emotions to dictate how you communicate you'll only turn people off from the start.


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    #89
    Didas
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭Didas


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think there is a world of difference between saying a person, male or female, is attractive, and saying you'd leave them bleeding or split them or smash their flaps in. I think the latter is crude and vulgar, I don't think the former is crude or vulgar, not sure how you conflate the two.

    "Hope you're being facetious", to borrow a phrase...

    It is extremely crude and vulgar, however the infrequent use of phrases of a similar type to these is not proof of a 'rape culture'


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    #90
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    There are articles about an apparent traveller tradition called 'grabbing', a practice which is asserted to be a myth by traveller group, Pavee Point..

    According to the article below, this can result in broken arms. Forced intimacy of some description is implied:
    http://m.independent.ie/lifestyle/traveller-girls-love-and-marriage-26731262.html

    The practice is denied by traveller group, Pavee Point:
    https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/vee-point-why-these-7-traveller-myths-are-untrue-849182-Mar2013/%3Famp%3D1

    Here is an article in the Daily Mail, which refers to My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, a show which referenced the practice:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1348402/My-Big-Fat-Gypsy-Wedding-The-grisly-secrets-courtship-revealed.html


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    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mzungu wrote: »
    When the experts on the front lines dealing with rapes everyday say it doesn't exist, then that should tell you something. It is only the usual ideologues who seem to be hell bent on telling us all otherwise.

    What experts in front lines said rape culture doesn't exist?

    You quoted a piece earlier that did not deny it existed at all, but said blurring rape culture and the crime of rape is unhelpful, which is obviously true. I have said they are distinct issues that occasionally may overlap, but certainly conflating expressions, gestures and even behaviour with the serious and violent crime of rape itself dilutes the latter. It's like saying alcoholism is not so bad because, well we do have a drinking culture.


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