Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's from the first of July. We now know the UK's economy is growing faster than expected and actually faster than the EU. So we need something a bit more up to date.

How about 75% that are confident that Britain will grow economically but will consider moving anyhow?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-25/brexit-leads-three-quarters-of-britain-s-ceos-to-consider-moving

That is about as bleak for the future as it gets.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's from the first of July. We now know the UK's economy is growing faster than expected and actually faster than the EU. So we need something a bit more up to date.

How about 75% that are confident that Britain will grow economically but will consider moving anyhow?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-25/brexit-leads-three-quarters-of-britain-s-ceos-to-consider-moving

That is about as bleak for the future as it gets.

Most will be immigrants going back home. Hopefully.

Capt'n Midnight

FA Hayek wrote: »

Why do Scottish nationalists pretend they can join the EU straight after seeding from the UK?

Don't forget they could simply stay in EU while the rest of the UK leaves. The precedent was set by Denmark and Greenland.

Capt'n Midnight

FA Hayek wrote: »

The UK does not have a constitution.

The UK doesn't have a written constitution.

If it did it would be three words long. Parliament is God.

Also thanks to the Parliament Act the House of Lords can no longer block the Commons.

In the Commons the quorum is 40 Members of Parliament, including the Speaker.

Yes Minister, House of Cards and the New Statesman are all required viewing to see how stuff works.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Most will be immigrants going back home. Hopefully.

Pitchforks at the ready there A Little Pony?

Capt'n Midnight

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The only player in ww2 with imperial ambitions in Europe was Germany.

Where to begin ?
Just before WWII Belgium had the Congo, France had a good chunk of Saharan Africa, Italy had Libya and Ethiopia. Denmark had Iceland. Russian was invading Finland.

There was no shortage of imperial ambition in Europe. But the neighbours were armed so no one moved, unless the regime was weakened and then it was vulture time. When Czechoslovakia was split in 1938 Poland and Hungry took parts of it. Similar land grabs happened further south in Eastern Europe too


And while on the subject of History. Between the split of Czechoslovakia and the invasion of Poland, Germany took control of Lithuania's sea ports which kinda sucked when the Soviet Union annexed the rest of the country and it's neighbours in 1940.


If you look at the world in black and white then it's easy to miss the grey areas. Especially if your cut-off point between black and grey isn't somewhat off. And it's well neigh impossible to appreciate the richness of colours.

Capt'n Midnight

A Little Pony wrote: »

All of Englands great historic names would have voted Brexit. If it would be good enough for Dick Turpin and Robin Hood, it is good enough for me.

They were outlaws so they wouldn't have been able to vote.

HellSquirrel

A Little Pony wrote: »

All of Englands great historic names would have voted Brexit. If it would be good enough for Dick Turpin and Robin Hood, it is good enough for me.

That explains a lot. :pac:

youreadthat

I must say, it's so heartwarming to see such Irish interest in the health of the car industry of a backwater town in England. How we have matured!

catbear

youreadthat wrote: »

I must say, it's so heartwarming to see such Irish interest in the health of the car industry of a backwater town in England. How we have matured!

What are you talking about? For leaving the EU those Nissan workers are going to see another slice of their nations tax take go abroad!

MrPudding

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why do the UK nationalists always bring WW2 into Brexit discussions?

Well, at least they haven't brought 1966 into it... I must say, I am surprised they haven't.

MrP

catbear

Asked whether it would not be valuable to put the argument for Brexit to forum delegates, Mrs Foster responded: “To be a lone voice amongst a whole lot of remoaners? No thank you — I have better things to do with my time.”

First off Arlene doesn't seem to understand that the republic didn't have the referendum.

“It will be full of people who quite frankly haven’t accepted the referendum result going down to talk about how dreadful it is and how awful it is.

and second the forum was set up to discuss the impact on the Island of the UK leaving the EU.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/foster-rubbishes-kenny-s-brexit-forum-for-remoaners-1.2846022

She really is a dose.

The Rape of Lucretia

MrPudding wrote: »

Well, at least they haven't brought 1966 into it... I must say, I am surprised they haven't.

MrP

Well, England havent won a major football (a game England invented I will have you know) trophy since they joined the EEC. Coincidence ? We can all reach our own conclusions on that one.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote: »

Well, at least they haven't brought 1966 into it... I must say, I am surprised they haven't.

MrP

But you did!

FA Hayek

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Don't forget they could simply stay in EU while the rest of the UK leaves. The precedent was set by Denmark and Greenland.

Ha, what ever mumbo jumbo that is, its never going to happen.

ambro25

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Well, England havent won a major football (a game England invented I will have you know) trophy since they joined the EEC. Coincidence ? We can all reach our own conclusions on that one.

Britain joined the EEC in 1973, didn't it?

So what happened in the World Cup 1970?

Wasn't the ECSC's fault, by any chance, was it?

NATO's?

maryishere

ambro25 wrote: »

Britain joined the EEC in 1973, didn't it?

So what happened in the World Cup 1970?

Was that the year they were played in Mexico, and their goalie got poisoned before a match? Anyway, no team deserves to win it twice in a row.

Capt'n Midnight

FA Hayek wrote: »

Capt'n midnight wrote:

The precedent was set by Denmark and Greenland.

Ha, what ever mumbo jumbo that is, its never going to happen.

You're arguing something couldn't possibly happen.

I'm pointing out it already did.



Oddly enough with Scotland in the EU the rest of the UK could have the option to come creeping back in the way like East Germany reunited with West Germany.

In Scotland we have mixed feelings about Global Warming. Because we all get to sit on the mountains and watch the English drown.
- Frankie Boyle

Junkyard Tom

catbear wrote: »

FArlene ... really is a dose.

This is a pretty good summation of her performance so far as regards Brexit.

Her peasant-like forelock-tugging obeisance to the British government is guaranteed to do the prospects of prosperity for people here a lot of harm.

HellSquirrel

I don't know why anyone would have wanted the job as PM after the Brexit vote. No matter how it goes, bar the sudden collapse of the EU, s/he would get the blame for anything that happened.

To Brexit? Hated by all the Remainers, plus a chunk of regretful Leave voters, plus pissing off the EU top people and then trying to get a good deal out of them for the UK. And getting the blame for probable years of dodgy markets and the sterling tanking. Because this was a totally unforeseen result that wasn't warned about by all those "experts" that people have no time for nowadays. If she succeeds by some miracle in getting the UK through the worst of it and it starts to prosper, Farage and the bash street kids will be out of the woodwork saying that any good resulting was all down to them and aren't they wonderful, please vote us in now that the hard bit is done so we can keep Making Britain Great Again.

Against Brexit? Hated by all the Leave voters, plus a few Remainers that reckon the people have spoken, plus riots.

I have no respect for the people like Johnson, Gove and Farage who ran for the hills once they realised what they'd done (although Gove got a knife in the back, to be very mildly fair to him). I get the impression that Cameron was a bit backed into a corner about calling the referendum, didn't really want it, and didn't support it, but there was enough noise about it that he took the gamble and lost.

Wouldn't like to be in May's position at all.

Badly Drunk Boy

HellSquirrel wrote: »

I have no respect for the people like Johnson, Gove and Farage who ran for the hills once they realised what they'd done (although Gove got a knife in the back, to be very mildly fair to him). I get the impression that Cameron was a bit backed into a corner about calling the referendum, didn't really want it, and didn't support it, but there was enough noise about it that he took the gamble and lost.

Gove got a knife in the back after he first wielded his, to the initial cost of Boris. At the moment, he is possibly one of the most despised Tories by other Tory MPs.

HellSquirrel

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Gove got a knife in the back after he first wielded his, to the initial cost of Boris. At the moment, he is possibly one of the most despised Tories by other Tory MPs.

This doesn't surprise me a bit! It was all going Night of the Long Knives there politically for a while. I remember Gove coming out of the kerfuffle with a knife in the back, after Johnson had apparently tripped over his own feet and already fallen, but that may well have been due to another knife being lodged somewhere - actually, it does ring a bell, something about his supporting Johnson and then suddenly making a dive for the prize himself, was it that fiasco?

Fratton Fred

HellSquirrel wrote: »

This doesn't surprise me a bit! It was all going Night of the Long Knives there politically for a while. I remember Gove coming out of the kerfuffle with a knife in the back, after Johnson had apparently tripped over his own feet and already fallen, but that may well have been due to another knife being lodged somewhere - actually, it does ring a bell, something about his supporting Johnson and then suddenly making a dive for the prize himself, was it that fiasco?

the result divide the country, towns, political parties, hell even my folks Bowls Club has had heated arguments about it.

demfad

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Because this was a totally unforeseen result that wasn't warned about by all those "experts" that people have no time for nowadays.

It was populists like Gove and Johnson who denounced the experts who warned of the consequences to the British economy. If you denounce people who are informed and expert in their field then you allows for lies to put forth as truth which is exactly what happenned here.
Nick Clegg , Who sat beside May on the cabinet table for half a decade said she didnt open her mouth once on the economy in that time. He claimed she focused on immigrants always keen to exagerrate reports where possible (Cleggs autobiography). Also she detested the ECHR which has nothing to do with the EU. Since Brexit her attitudes to immigrants. ECHR and her cluelessness around the economy seems to reflect this. Her mixed messages on Brexit have further undermined the relationship and created a rift with the EU. Threatening a hard Brexit does not help the UK. It is her job to make the best of a bad situation. She is abjectly failing.
The Tories brought this disaster on themselves. They used the future of the UK as a chip in an internal party gamble.

FrancieBrady

HellSquirrel wrote: »

I don't know why anyone would have wanted the job as PM after the Brexit vote. No matter how it goes, bar the sudden collapse of the EU, s/he would get the blame for anything that happened.

To Brexit? Hated by all the Remainers, plus a chunk of regretful Leave voters, plus pissing off the EU top people and then trying to get a good deal out of them for the UK. And getting the blame for probable years of dodgy markets and the sterling tanking. Because this was a totally unforeseen result that wasn't warned about by all those "experts" that people have no time for nowadays. If she succeeds by some miracle in getting the UK through the worst of it and it starts to prosper, Farage and the bash street kids will be out of the woodwork saying that any good resulting was all down to them and aren't they wonderful, please vote us in now that the hard bit is done so we can keep Making Britain Great Again.

Against Brexit? Hated by all the Leave voters, plus a few Remainers that reckon the people have spoken, plus riots.

I have no respect for the people like Johnson, Gove and Farage who ran for the hills once they realised what they'd done (although Gove got a knife in the back, to be very mildly fair to him). I get the impression that Cameron was a bit backed into a corner about calling the referendum, didn't really want it, and didn't support it, but there was enough noise about it that he took the gamble and lost.

Wouldn't like to be in May's position at all.

I don't think Boris ran for the hills. He took a clever step to the side and I have no doubts he has his eyes on the top job. But he wasn't ever going to be the PM who took them out of the EU

Fratton Fred

demfad wrote: »

It was populists like Gove and Johnson who denounced the experts who warned of the consequences to the British economy. If you denounce people who are informed and expert in their field then you allows for lies to put forth as truth which is exactly what happenned here

this is why I am looking forward to the SNP doing the same thing in the next referendum.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

this is why I am looking forward to the SNP doing the same thing in the next referendum.

What lies were told in the Scottish referendum? Was it not the promises that were made to Scotland that were the lies?

demfad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

this is why I am looking forward to the SNP doing the same thing in the next referendum.

Whataboutery.

The last Scottish debate on independence was notable for the quality of debate and political engagement by the Scottish people. Most of the ad hominem arguments came from the remain side there, including violent attacks by loyalists on people who wanted independence. The late lies generally came from the usual source south of the border. All the lies Cameron et al made were extinguished straight away after the vote.

Fratton Fred

demfad wrote: »

Whataboutery.

The last Scottish debate on independence was notable for the quality of debate and political engagement by the Scottish people. Most of the ad hominem arguments came from the remain side there, including violent attacks by loyalists on people who wanted independence. The late lies generally came from the usual source south of the border. All the lies Cameron et al made were extinguished straight away after the vote.

the "Experts" as you call them, made predictions of financial doom and gloom and all of this was written off as "Project Fear".

demfad

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-messages-insight-idUSKCN12R0YA

Here is an article with a fair analysis of how Theresa May's mixed messages has completely undermined the Uks relationship with the EU.
It appears the PM rang around the EU leaders with a very concilatory tone and message on Brexit hours before her possessed Tory conference hard brexit speech.

This backfired badly with European leaders outlining the real consequences of the hard Brexit she painted. Apparently British diplomats are completely in the dark and powerless to ease tensions because all of Mays inner advisors are revealing nothing. The cabinet appears to be split adding to the disorientation.

May is trying to say that the British Eurosceptic press (bad mouthing Europeans and accusing them of causing the standoff) is not her opinion but she is doing nothing to clarify this.

Anyone can see from any discussions that the British side are happy to let their own public think that the EU are at fault for the standoff.

Europe does't want an expensive Brexit but the British sides amateurish and foolish behaviour is making this more likely.