2018 Ryder Cup

valoren

Joe_ Public wrote: »

“The facts are that winning a Ryder Cup doesn’t make an iota of difference in these players careers...”

I wouldn’t say that’s a fact at all. Right up to his death you’d never watch a COC Jnr interview without reference to that famous 2 iron. Ask Philip Walton what sinking the winning putt did for his career. Or Bernhard Langer how missing his putt still haunts him to this day. These are facts I think.

You or I don’t have to agree with it or even like it. But the players buy into it, they might not play golf in Europe much but they are all products of the EuropeanTour and have always fed off that connection. That there is no material award seems a crucial aspect. I remember a bit of controversy about that before Brookline in 99 I think, Tiger was one of those complaining about the lack of payment to players. I wouldn’t have expected him to get it back then and not sure that doesn’t still apply even now.

The US players were understandably miffed. The matches and the revenue were a money spinner for the PGA of America. I believe it was 1999 that David Duval was a catalyst for getting them to make $100k charity donations decided on by each player. He took misguided criticism from sections of the media who wrongly believed the players 'demands' were for personal gain.

An insight into Tiger's attitude to the RC was exemplified before the 2002 Amex in Mount Juliet. He was asked if given a choice would he prefer to win this week or the RC the next. Without missing a beat he said this week. Asked for a reason why, he said he could think of a million reasons i.e. WGC first prize being $1m. It's all about mentality. Do you think Wood's gave a crap about losing at the Belfry? Was he disgusted and embarrassed for his team mates or gutted for Curtis Strange? I doubt it.

That's the attitude and modus operandi he needs to win. The loner assassin. I think the reason why there are such exuberant celebrations from winning European teams is that they are actually all friends, there are no egos there, but importantly they all appear to be friends with the captains as well. And when they win, the euphoria is that they won it not for themselves but for the captain. They spend the best part of two years preparing for the event. There's a serious amount of travel, media duties etc that goes with the role.

The european celebrations were no different from a golf club team winning the Bruen Shield. It just happens to be on TV with thousands of people watching. The emotions and elation are the same. An U-14 schoolboy team winning the national cup feels the same to them as winning the World Cup means to a pro.

If there was to be any celebration criticism then it might be reserved for a player who badly lost all their matches and then lauded the victory in a John Terry, togging on with full kit type embarrassment.

Niles Crane

NDWC wrote: »

This is awful, from what I remember though there were definitely shouts of fore.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/01/brooks-koepka-ryder-cup-spectator

Sadly it was bound to happen at some stage ,players have got to used to bombing the ball recklessly and using the crowd as a backstop I think the PGA and european Tours have really got to insist that players take more care where there shots go.There should now be a severe penalty for not shouting fore.It's disgraceful how often players don't shout fore and get away unpunished.

Joe_ Public

valoren wrote: »

The US players were understandably miffed. The matches and the revenue were a money spinner for the PGA of America. I believe it was 1999 that David Duval was a catalyst for getting them to make $100k charity donations decided on by each player.

An insight into Tiger's attitude to the RC was exemplified before the 2002 Amex in Mount Juliet. He was asked if given a choice would he prefer to win this week or the RC the next. Without missing a beat he said this week. Asked for a reason why, he said he could think of a million reasons i.e. WGC first prize being $1m. It's all about mentality. Do you think Wood's gave a crap about losing at the Belfry? Was he disgusted and embarrassed for his team mates or gutted for Curtis Strange? I doubt it.

That's the attitude and modus operandi he needs to win. The loner assassin. I think the reason why there are such exuberant celebrations from winning European teams is that they are actually all friends, there are no egos there, but importantly they all appear to be friends with the captains as well. And when they win, the euphoria is that they won it not for themselves but for the captain. They spend the best part of two years preparing for the event. There's a serious amount of travel, media duties etc that goes with the role.

The european celebrations were no different from a golf club team winning the Bruen Shield. It just happens to be on TV with thousands of people watching. The emotions and elation are the same. An U-14 schoolboy team winning the national cup feels the same to them as winning the World Cup means to a pro.

If there was to be any celebration criticism then it might be reserved for a player who badly lost all their matches and then lauded the victory in a John Terry, togging on with full kit type embarrassment.

Agree with most of that. Friendship is unquestionably the bedrock of Europe success in RC. I think it’s a thing that actually goes back decades. That camaraderie and spirit of friendship has been a thing in Europe for decades and is completely natural while the Americans have to try and force it. Forget who was capt at K Club but I remember the extreme efforts he took to create that bond and it still didn’t work. It’s not the whole reason but a big contributing factor.

On the money issue I think that’s a very generous interpretation on behalf of the players. Memory is a bit fuzzy but I believe it was O Meara who first raised it and then his pal Tiger and others came in. They never mentioned charitable donations from the outset, that was simply a compromise that was reached. If it wasn’t driven by ego or even greed, they just gave the impression it was. On the other side, if a European has ever raised a similar objection I’ve never heard it.

valoren

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Agree with most of that. Friendship is unquestionably the bedrock of Europe success in RC. I think it’s a thing that actually goes back decades. That camaraderie and spirit of friendship has been a thing in Europe for decades and is completely natural while the Americans have to try and force it. Forget who was capt at K Club but I remember the extreme efforts he took to create that bond and it still didn’t work. It’s not the whole reason but a big contributing factor.

On the money issue I think that’s a very generous interpretation on behalf of the players. Memory is a bit fuzzy but I believe it was O Meara who first raised it and then his pal Tiger and others came in. They never mentioned charitable donations from the outset, that was simply a compromise that was reached. If it wasn’t driven by ego or even greed, they just gave the impression it was. On the other side, if a European has ever raised a similar objection I’ve never heard it.

Seve wasn't selected for the 1981 matches because of an ongoing dispute over appearance fees.
I guess the reasoning of the players is that 'if you're good at something, never do it for free'

valoren

The 'Bash' brothers indeed :pac:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/ryder-cup/american-teammates-dustin-johnson-and-brooks-koepka-in-shocking-ryder-cup-bustup-37374726.html

Joe_ Public

valoren wrote: »

Seve wasn't selected for the 1981 matches because of an ongoing dispute over appearance fees.

I guess the reasoning of the players is that 'if you're good at something, never do it for free'

Ah ha, ok. Stand corrected. If there was to be one I would definitely have guessed young firebrand Seve for sure

Tilikum17

Niles Crane wrote: »

Sadly it was bound to happen at some stage ,players have got to used to bombing the ball recklessly and using the crowd as a backstop I think the PGA and european Tours have really got to insist that players take more care where there shots go.There should now be a severe penalty for not shouting fore.It's disgraceful how often players don't shout fore and get away unpunished.

One of the Europeans hooked it into the crowd on one hole. Can’t remember who it was (might have been Casey) He turned away in disgust instead of roaring fore. Straight in the crowd.

The Europeans are no better than the yanks for shouting fore. Then you have to listen to mugs like Mark Roe every week given out saying ‘Oh the American players never shot fore’

Every single caddy should be roaring fore.

valoren

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ah ha, ok. Stand corrected. If there was to be one I would definitely have guessed young firebrand Seve for sure

Looking it up, Seve's bone of contention was that the likes of Palmer and Trevino got appearance fees when they played in Britain. Seve was also a major winner and Europe's premier player at the time. He refused to play in events in Britain iirc and as a consequence he didn't automatically qualify for the 1981 team. Reliant on selection by John Jacobs, Neil Coles and Langer, they didn't pick him.

So I think it wasn't a case of him refusing to play RC because of money but the overriding argument about general appearance fees on Tour.

Joe_ Public

valoren wrote: »

Looking it up, Seve's bone of contention was that the likes of Palmer and Trevino got appearance fees when they played in Britain. Seve was also a major winner and Europe's premier player at the time. He refused to play in events in Britain iirc and as a consequence he didn't automatically qualify for the 1981 team. Reliant on selection by John Jacobs, Neil Coles and Langer, they didn't pick him.

So I think it wasn't a case of him refusing to play RC because of money but the overriding argument about general appearance fees on Tour.

Ah yeah, half remember all that stuff with Seve. Saw him play a couple of times in the Irish Open here. He’d talk about how much he loved Ireland but you’d wonder if he’d be there without the deep pot of appearance money he was getting.

I doubt any one player shaped the modern RC more than he did. He openly resented the Americans and was like a demented beast as a captain in 97. A special guy, but didn’t like how he treated that Spanish golfer whose name I forget before that Valderrama contest. Wasn’t fair or pleasant I thought.

Loafing Oaf

Niles Crane wrote: »

Sadly it was bound to happen at some stage ,players have got to used to bombing the ball recklessly and using the crowd as a backstop I think the PGA and european Tours have really got to insist that players take more care where there shots go.There should now be a severe penalty for not shouting fore.It's disgraceful how often players don't shout fore and get away unpunished.

Is this partly over American golfers being used to playing on very broad fairways and so not having to worry too much about the direction of their drives?

PropJoe10

Minderbinder wrote: »

Because it doesn’t make any sense to me.

There needs to be something on the line to spark that sort of wild celebration. The facts are that winning the RC doesn’t make an iota of difference in these players’ careers and I’m sorry but patriotism does not extend to one’s continent, it simply doesn’t whether you play golf or you don’t.

There are two things that would cause wild celebrations and they would usually require both to happen for what I see in the RC.

The first is a great achievement. I’m sure some people would consider this a great achievement but let’s be fair there are only two teams in it.

The second is if there is a risk/reward kind of situation where something is on the line. As in, if you lose bad things are going to happen. There aren’t even bragging rights anymore to the same extent because it used to be about which tour was better but that’s no longer in dispute. These guys see each every week and are probably as likely to be friends with the American guys as with the Europeans.

I just don’t get where the sense of joy is coming from. Maybe using the word ‘staged’ was not right but it’s almost like the wild celebrations are overcompensating or a way to justify the whole thing.

These players spend every week of their professional year playing for themselves, practicising by themselves. They get to be part of a team for a single week every two years, if they're lucky enough, and get to represent something other than their own interests - golf is a very individual game. Plus, there's the prestige of making the team and following the great players that they looked up to when younger.

You must be a very cynical person if you think that the celebrations and emotion shown by the European team were contrived or staged.

GreeBo

Niles Crane wrote: »

Sadly it was bound to happen at some stage ,players have got to used to bombing the ball recklessly and using the crowd as a backstop I think the PGA and european Tours have really got to insist that players take more care where there shots go.There should now be a severe penalty for not shouting fore.It's disgraceful how often players don't shout fore and get away unpunished.

I remember thinking that there were a lot more shouts of FORE than I was used to hearing...also pretty sure there was a shout in this case also.

Pa8301

GreeBo wrote: »

I remember thinking that there were a lot more shouts of FORE than I was used to hearing...also pretty sure there was a shout in this case also.

Yes I remember watching it and there was definitely at least one shout of Fore from the tee. It was a driveable par 4. Every second drive seemed to be going into the crowd. It was only a matter of time before someone was hit. Not much chance to get out of the way with the speed the balls are going at and with the lack of room to maneuvre. Can only cover your head and hope for the best really.

Cork Boy 53

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I doubt any one player shaped the modern RC more than he did. He openly resented the Americans and was like a demented beast as a captain in 97. A special guy, but didn’t like how he treated that Spanish golfer whose name I forget before that Valderrama contest. Wasn’t fair or pleasant I thought.

It was Miguel Angel Martin. Seve basically wanted Jose Maria Olazabal on his team who had failed to automatically qualify and invented Martin`s supposed injury as an excuse to drop him from the team.

Raisins

Pa8301 wrote: »

Yes I remember watching it and there was definitely at least one shout of Fore from the tee. It was a driveable par 4. Every second drive seemed to be going into the crowd. It was only a matter of time before someone was hit. Not much chance to get out of the way with the speed the balls are going at and with the lack of room to maneuvre. Can only cover your head and hope for the best really.

It was on a par 4 so shouting fore from the tee made no difference, Koepka made that point himself. Just off the top of my head there could have had a spotter on the hill or something who shouted 4 as soon as he saw the stewards on the back of the tee pointing left or right etc. I hope she gets damages, any organizer with a brain could see that was a dangerous situation. Going over to a sporting event as a spectator and permanently losing your sight is ridiculous. It was bound to happen eventually with pros bombing it into galleries and walking away signing gloves.

Joe_ Public

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

It was Miguel Angel Martin. Seve basically wanted Jose Maria Olazabal on his team who had failed to automatically qualify and invented Martin`s supposed injury as an excuse to drop him from the team.

Spot on! Or “that little man” as Seve took to describing him when Martín had the temerity to speak up for himself.

GreeBo

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Spot on! Or “that little man” as Seve took to describing him when Martín had the temerity to speak up for himself.

Seems like there is a bit more too it though.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/martin-thrown-off-ryder-team-1.102883

Martin refused to effectively take a physical to prove that he was able to play, not having played for weeks before due to a wrist ligament injury.

Joe_ Public

GreeBo wrote: »

Seems like there is a bit more too it though.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/martin-thrown-off-ryder-team-1.102883

Martin refused to effectively take a physical to prove that he was able to play, not having played for weeks before due to a wrist ligament injury.

Have to admit I don’t fully recall all the exact details but there was a feeling among many that Martín was being victimized. Either way I think what cork boy said above is accurate. Seve absolutely wanted his best possible team and that didn’t include Martin if at all possible. It was a very bitter episode to say the least.

GreeBo

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Have to admit I don’t fully recall all the exact details but there was a feeling among many that Martín was being victimized. Either way I think what cork boy said above is accurate. Seve absolutely wanted his best possible team and that didn’t include Martin if at all possible. It was a very bitter episode to say the least.

Best possible team probably doesnt include a guy who hasnt played due to injury for weeks though...hard to say if there was malice involved or not.

I think Seve just wanted to win...at all costs.

Loafing Oaf

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

It was Miguel Angel Martin. Seve basically wanted Jose Maria Olazabal on his team who had failed to automatically qualify and invented Martin`s supposed injury as an excuse to drop him from the team.

wow, sounds like a less extreme version of Kevin O'Callaghan's fate in Escape to Victory.:P

Joe_ Public

GreeBo wrote: »

Best possible team probably doesnt include a guy who hasnt played due to injury for weeks though...hard to say if there was malice involved or not.

I think Seve just wanted to win...at all costs.

No, there was much more to it than that. I’d have to read up on it but I think Martin felt he was being set up. He needed more time for the injury to heal and could not understand why it wouldn’t be granted, alleging that if he was, say, Olazábal or Monty, the extension would have been instantly granted. From memory I believe a lot of people were sympathetic towards that position.

Pa8301

GreeBo wrote: »

Best possible team probably doesnt include a guy who hasnt played due to injury for weeks though...hard to say if there was malice involved or not.

I think Seve just wanted to win...at all costs.

Seve definitely marched to the beat of his own drum at times. I don't think Monty appreciated him conceding Hoch's putt to halve their match once the cup was won.

54and56

NDWC wrote: »

This is awful, from what I remember though there were definitely shouts of fore.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/01/brooks-koepka-ryder-cup-spectator

I can't think of any other public event where spectators would be allowed stand in such close proximity to an incoming rock hard projectile with such a high possibility of missing it's target and entering the area spectators are permitted to stand. The only other sport with such fluid spectator movement in close proximity to danger that I can think of is rally driving/motorcycle TT racing.

I assume the T&C's of the ticket spectators purchase somehow signs away their right to a compensation claim if hit be a wayward shot providing the protocol of the player or his caddie shouting "fore" is adhered to.

It's always amazed me how standard Health & Safety measures seem to be suspended in order to allow spectators stand close to the edge of fairways and around greens and in particular when a player is hitting from the rough. There are frequently camera angles from behind the player and it looks like he is hitting a shot through a very narrow gap of spectators to the green. A mi**** shot or shank and someone is getting a speeding bullet of a ball straight into them!!

AdamD

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I can't think of any other public event where spectators would be allowed stand in such close proximity to an incoming rock hard projectile with such a high possibility of missing it's target and entering the area spectators are permitted to stand. The only other sport with such fluid spectator movement in close proximity to danger that I can think of is rally driving/motorcycle TT racing.

I assume the T&C's of the ticket spectators purchase somehow signs away their right to a compensation claim if hit be a wayward shot providing the protocol of the player or his caddie shouting "fore" is adhered to.

It's always amazed me how standard Health & Safety measures seem to be suspended in order to allow spectators stand close to the edge of fairways and around greens and in particular when a player is hitting from the rough. There are frequently camera angles from behind the player and it looks like he is hitting a shot through a very narrow gap of spectators to the green. A mi**** shot or shank and someone is getting a speeding bullet of a ball straight into them!!

I particularly enjoy these when the player has just clearly blazed a driver 60 yards right and yet they're willing to create a tiny gap for him to shoot through :pac:

54and56

AdamD wrote: »

I particularly enjoy these when the player has just clearly blazed a driver 60 yards right and yet they're willing to create a tiny gap for him to shoot through :pac:

EXACTLY, it's absolutely mental!!

Mushy

GreeBo wrote: »

Best possible team probably doesnt include a guy who hasnt played due to injury for weeks though...hard to say if there was malice involved or not.

I think Seve just wanted to win...at all costs.

They could have given him more time though (based solely on reading that article). Squeezing it in before wildcard picks weeks before the tournament would have me suspicious

prawnsambo

L'Equipe reporting that the blow up between the Bash Brothers (Johnson and Koepka) started on the plane over and continued into the team room despite Jim Furyk's pleas to put it behnd them. His original plan to play them together had to be torn up and only when the situation became desparate did he eventually put them together on Saturday afternoon. Tiger Woods apparently tried to act as peacemaker, but he was also heavily fatigued and was walking slowly on the advice of his physio. According to a staff member, the atmosphere was horrible and Jim Furyk was devastated. Johnson and Koepka eventually had to be separated at the European team celebration dinner, before they came to blows.

Joe_ Public

prawnsambo wrote: »

L'Equipe reporting that the blow up between the Bash Brothers (Johnson and Koepka) started on the plane over and continued into the team room despite Jim Furyk's pleas to put it behnd them. His original plan to play them together had to be torn up and only when the situation became desparate did he eventually put them together on Saturday afternoon. Tiger Woods apparently tried to act as peacemaker, but he was also heavily fatigued and was walking slowly on the advice of his physio. According to a staff member, the atmosphere was horrible and Jim Furyk was devastated. Johnson and Koepka eventually had to be separated at the European team celebration dinner, before they came to blows.

Unbelievable stuff really, wonder what the initial flare up was all about. Remember Dusty’s tweet a few weeks back about how he and his great pal were going to put the willies up the entire European team!

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Unbelievable stuff really, wonder what the initial flare up was all about. Remember Dusty’s tweet a few weeks back about how he and his great pal were going to put the willies up the entire European team!

probably something about the wife!

you know it's been a Ryder cup where the golf wasn't exciting when all the stories are about US bust-ups.

Benildus

I wonder was Paulina Gretzky a factor in their bustup......