2700s return

kc56

IE 222 wrote: »

Can't see them going anywhere near Hueston services. I reckon they'll all go to M3 and make all Maynooth trains 8 car 2900s. Freed ICR's will go to Drogheada/Dundalk and maybe an extra PPT.

Has the PPT seen numbers fall on Portlaise- Hueston service or is it still busy. Is future demand on the Kildare commuter routes just for PPT or demand for more Hueston services grown as well.

According to the 2017 rail census, there was a small growth in Heuston commuter numbers probably due to the extension of the SHZ to Sallins/Naas. Overall growth was 57% when PPT was included.

L1011

NTA are now telling public representatives making queries that this isn't happening due to cost and that Irish Rail are now looking for regaugable second hand units

devnull

I could see how second hand units might help the DART, as there are going to be plenty of EMUs becoming available in the UK over the next year or two, including:

- 100x 4 car class 321 units freed from Greater Anglia in the UK (many which are undergoing heavy refurbishment)
- 10x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 350 from London Midland
- 21x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Greater Anglia
- 05x 5 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Heathrow Connect
- 30x 4 car Bombardier Electrostar Class 379 from Stansted Express / West Anglia.

Then there is the 30x 5 car Class 707 Siemens Desiro City that are only about a year old that are shortly going to be replaced by newer trains which are cheaper to lease, but they're third rail.

However realistically Irish Rail need diesel units for commuter lines and converting a whole batch of units from EMU to Diesel is going to be costly and unproven. At the moment the project of converting the Class 319s to tri-mode class 769s is not going so well and the jury is very much still out on the D train project of converting ex underground cars to Diesel units.

You might have the odd class 153, 156, pacers or perhaps the class 180, but given the reliability of the Class 180 and the struggles that the operators with them are having, it wouldn't be a good purchase truth be told. I struggle to see where they are going to get good quality, diesel units, second hand.

I should imagine the class 170 and class 185 diesels will be snapped up fairly quickly when they go off lease in the UK, since modern diesel stock is very hard to come by and operators will lap them up.

L1011

Re-equipping shoe contact or 25kv AC EMUs to 1500v DC wouldn't be cheap itself let alone regauging costs

Isambard

devnull wrote: »

I could see how second hand units might help the DART, as there are going to be plenty of EMUs becoming available in the UK over the next year or two, including:

- 100x 4 car class 321 units freed from Greater Anglia in the UK (many which are undergoing heavy refurbishment)
- 10x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 350 from London Midland
- 21x 4 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Greater Anglia
- 05x 5 car Siemens Desiro Class 360 from Heathrow Connect
- 30x 4 car Bombardier Electrostar Class 379 from Stansted Express / West Anglia.

Then there is the 30x 5 car Class 707 Siemens Desiro City that are only about a year old that are shortly going to be replaced by newer trains which are cheaper to lease, but they're third rail.

However realistically Irish Rail need diesel units for commuter lines and converting a whole batch of units from EMU to Diesel is going to be costly and unproven. At the moment the project of converting the Class 319s to tri-mode class 769s is not going so well and the jury is very much still out on the D train project of converting ex underground cars to Diesel units.

You might have the odd class 153, 156, pacers or perhaps the class 180, but given the reliability of the Class 180 and the struggles that the operators with them are having, it wouldn't be a good purchase truth be told. I struggle to see where they are going to get good quality, diesel units, second hand.

I should imagine the class 170 and class 185 diesels will be snapped up fairly quickly when they go off lease in the UK, since modern diesel stock is very hard to come by and operators will lap them up.

secondhand units don't have to be from the UK.

end of the road

the 2700s must be in horific condition now, or very badly built, if a refurbishment of them isn't going ahead due to cost, so much so that IE have to look at second hand units which themselves may need some work to work on the network here?

Jamie2k9

Not a hope of second hand units IMO, NTA trying to buy more time before making a decision on purchase of bi-mode trains.

L1011

They could also look at loco hauled stock which is easier to re-bogie... Push pull 201s would be needed for that though and I don't think there's any spare or salvageable?

As goes the 2700s - try badly built *and* in awful condition.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

NTA are now telling public representatives making queries that this isn't happening due to cost and that Irish Rail are now looking for regaugable second hand units

This was raised at a recent board meeting, currently the project is stalled, but, not dead just yet despite whatever the NTA may have said.

Tenders were meant to have been issued before now and was all set to go until a few months ago, but, all the tenderers raised concerns about the cost of the project saying it could not be done for the estimated price.

IE require more money from the NTA before it can continue, IE and the NTA are indeed exploring the idea of second hand stock and have approached a number of companies in the UK looking at the 156s or 158s, but with no success I believe.

The reality is that once the NTA realise that second hand stock and re-gauging will also cost a significant price versus the relatively young age of the 2700s compared to second hand stock will most likely result in the 2700 project getting the green light once again.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

the 2700s must be in horific condition now, or very badly built, if a refurbishment of them isn't going ahead due to cost, so much so that IE have to look at second hand units which themselves may need some work to work on the network here?

They are in good condition structurally, some have also started up without problems in recent months, the problem is because they are so long out of service every single major component needs to be refurbished and other enhancements are required to bring them up to standards, the costs are more than the NTA are willing to sanction.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not a hope of second hand units IMO, NTA trying to buy more time before making a decision on purchase of bi-mode trains.

The decision to purchase bi-mode units has already been made a long time ago.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

The decision to purchase bi-mode units has already been made a long time ago.

Referring more to the process bringing it to tender etc Unrealistic to consider second hand trains because it will just just as much as the 2700s.

Cravens

Maybe a customer for the Class 230 DEMU?

devnull

Cravens wrote: »

Maybe a customer for the Class 230 DEMU?

Hopefully not.

L1011

The NTA told the same public rep that they intend an RFI for bi-mode this calendar year (so within 10 weeks) and order in 2019.

I believe the rep is passing on the info given, but I don't believe the NTA are telling him the entire truth!

GM228

https://www.kildarenow.com/news/irish-rail-trying-source-carriages-additional-fleet-capacity-maynooth-kildare-rail-lines/252966

tabbey

Isambard wrote: »

secondhand units don't have to be from the UK.

Anywhere else would have a larger loading gauge than Ireland & UK.

The only exceptions are probably narrow gauge stock.

The real scandal here is that the Mk II stock were prematurely scrapped and IR bought the 2700s & MkIV fleet. Both these were clearly unfit for purpose, Ir should have got their money back, or at least substantial compensation.

GM228

https://twitter.com/lawlessj/status/1052865151857176577?s=19

Have a look at the letter from the NTA.

"the full reasons for the increased cost level are not known"

XPS_Zero

tabbey wrote: »

Anywhere else would have a larger loading gauge than Ireland & UK.

The only exceptions are probably narrow gauge stock.

The real scandal here is that the Mk II stock were prematurely scrapped and IR bought the 2700s & MkIV fleet. Both these were clearly unfit for purpose, Ir should have got their money back, or at least substantial compensation.

Why do you consider the MKIV fleet unfit for purpose?

XPS_Zero

GM228 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/lawlessj/status/1052865151857176577?s=19

Have a look at the letter from the NTA.

"the full reasons for the increased cost level are not known"

..and when canvassers knock on their door every one of those people will say "lower usc!" and "gimme a tax cut" and half will say "do something about dem scroungers on the dole" instead of "invest in public transport and public services in general!" and this will keep right on going.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why do you consider the MKIV fleet unfit for purpose?

i think it's to do with the ride quality issues. mind you i didn't experience any on my 1 and only trip on them. all though i think the train didn't reach full speed for some reason or perhapse i didn't notice it if it did.
they are quite nice trains but could be better internally i think. nothing a good refurbishment wouldn't sort.

XPS_Zero

I've been on them. They could use an Enterprise style refurb


As to the 22k issue above, I was on a Cork train that was packed like that. A CORK TRAIN. A 3 hour trip.


They didn't turn on the reservation panels, so everyone was playing musical chairs, then loads ended up sitting on the floor as IE has no system connected together to prevent overbookings. THen there was the empty first class they could have used their discretion to fill with an upgrade fee option over the speaker, but never bothered.

end of the road

i've never done the enterprise. it's on the to do list before the de-deitrics retire.

L1011

You probably have 15 years minimum then!

XPS_Zero

end of the road wrote: »

i've never done the enterprise. it's on the to do list before the de-deitrics retire.

You're not a self respecting train geek until you've done the Enterprise.
Even take a trip to Newry, it's even better since the refurb.


Nicest train on the island, best staff, reservation panels that actually work, a train manager with a physical manifest if they don't..

tabbey

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why do you consider the MKIV fleet unfit for purpose?

The ride was never right, even after being supposedly modified under warranty.

Apart from that, the seating is rather basic by mainline standards, you get what you pay for, I suppose.
Other rail operators (across the water) also fit inferior seats in their new trains, presumably to increase the seat capacity. This is a mistake, as the decades went by motorists have had improved seats, while rail passengers comfort has deteriorated.
Rail operators probably feel that people only use trains because they have to, not for their comfort.

Isambard

the Mk4 compare very badly with the mk3.

SeanW

man98 wrote: »

Surely any spare ICRs will go towards making Rosslare/ Wexford - Dublin fully ICR? Or at least reducing it to one 29k per day?

Are they still running 29000s Dublin-Rosslare? :eek: Seriously, WTF like?

end of the road

SeanW wrote: »

Are they still running 29000s Dublin-Rosslare? Seriously, WTF like?

unfortunately yes from time to time.

trellheim

so the 2700s are not coming back then ? What else is there in Inchicore that can seat passengers ?