Youths Rioting -ERU deployed(mod warning in op)

Gatling

foggy_lad wrote: »

The problem is that the government has been sending much older and seriously violent hardened criminals with anger and mental health issues to this care home without the staff to handle them

It's not a care home ,

It's a juvenile Detention centre and the majority are there due to be sentenced to be there by a judge for committing crimes against people ,

It should be treated as just that , except now it needs to be treated as a prison , uniforms and chains if need be ,
This mollycoddling has to end ,

Where else do prisoners get gifted designer trainers and track suits and yet victims of there crimes get a sob story about a hard life

SILVAMAN

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Sending the ERU in is retarded. What are they going to do, start shooting people? If it's a riot, then send in riot police to baton the bollix out of them.

Unfortunately a generation of vicious criminals has been allowed to grow up and the only thing they respect is someone more violent than themselves.
Time to wield the baton where criminality is involved.

Donald Trump

Oops69 wrote: »

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there, then again if SIPTU is running the place most will be on sick leave/ compassion leave / thinking about getting better leave , thinking about going on sick leave leave , someone-said-boo- to - me leave etc.etc. etc. bull**** excuse leave , so that number is probably accurate .

Yeah don't worry about it man. Lots of people are shite at maths and basic logic.

imagine a relatively simple to understand job like a guard that has to man/open a front gate. I'd imagine something like that is fairly mandatory for a prison environment. Unless you are going to suggest they just have someone there from 9-5 M-F and leave it open the rest of the time. :pac:

Say the average staff gets 4 weeks annual leave which leaves 48 weeks for working. . (4 weeks + 9 public holidays is the statutory minimum. Reference) And suppose a 40 hour working week. That means that average staff will work 48*40 - 9*8 = 1848 hours per year. But there are 365*24=8760 hours in a year. So to man that single position you need 4.75 full time staff minimum.

What numbers would you expect? 10 people? You'll have other ancillary positions too like secretaries and handymen etc. And teachers and social workers who won't be on 24 hours although there probably has to be some social worker type people there on a 24 hour basis too. But once you have a 24 hour role, you must be talking about 5 full time staff to fill that rule.

tomofson

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Ok I know stuff like "bring back firing squads" is just provocative and "carry out public floggings" is not constructive, I also disagree that the softly softly approach to violent criminals is "the PC liberal brigade" - it's legislation and insufficient police resources.

But the rest of what you say - seriously. Only you are the one referring to their background. Everyone else here is referring to their behaviour, not where they are from at all. It's quite patronising to be honest to abdicate responsibility from someone based on their background - it's as if they are incapable of holding accountability because of where they are from. What about all the other people (the majority) from disadvantaged backgrounds who don't resort to violent crime sprees?

Saying people are looking for them to be punished merely because they are disadvantaged (and not because of their violent crimes) is incredibly dishonest - and it's baffling that you don't even take into consideration what they have done. And to compare them to desperately poor people who were hanged for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families in days of yore is incredibly inaccurate. Those people did not terrorise and assault others, they were driven to desperate measures. That was a time when there were no supports whatsoever for the marginalised, they were left to rot. People like social workers try to help the people this story is about - many start off with the same view as you - only to be met with hostility.

I have no doubt that their difficult upbringings are the reason for their anger, but they are still responsible for their own behaviour.

I am the only one referencing their backgrounds because for most of the posters on here it is an underline subconscious issue, they may not even realize they have it or may not have even given it much of a thought... I am just trying to challenge these peoples mental thinking so they can change for the better and nothing worsen the situation...

TheNap

Imagine you are a qualified social worker but then are asked to deal with a number of 19 year old violent criminals with serious mental health issues .

No protection . No riot gear . Most employees middle aged men and women .

How the government allowed this to happen I'll never know . I'm just surprised that a worker hasn't been killed yet

tomofson

TheNap wrote: »

Imagine you are a qualified social worker but then are asked to deal with a number of 19 year old violent criminals with serious mental health issues .

No protection . No riot gear . Most employees middle aged men and women .

How the government allowed this to happen I'll never know . I'm just surprised that a worker hasn't been killed yet

There is no 19 year olds there.

TheNap

tomofson wrote: »

There is no 19 year olds there.

Sorry 18

Wigglepuppy

Oops69 wrote: »

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there, then again if SIPTU is running the place most will be on sick leave/ compassion leave / thinking about getting better leave , thinking about going on sick leave leave , someone-said-boo- to - me leave etc.etc. etc. bull**** excuse leave , so that number is probably accurate .

Why do people just post provocative drivel for a reaction? Boredom I guess. It seems such a tedious thing to bother doing.

tomofson wrote: »

I am the only one referencing their backgrounds because for most of the posters on here it is an underline subconscious issue, they may not even realize they have it or may not have even given it much of a thought...

That is nothing other than an assumption.

tomofson

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Why do people just post provocative drivel for a reaction? Boredom I guess. It seems such a tedious thing to bother doing.

That is nothing other than an assumption.

An assumption that has very real potential to be an actual fact.

Wigglepuppy

tomofson wrote: »

An assumption that has very real potential to be an actual fact.

So again, an assumption.
Acknowledging the acts that have landed these guys in the centre is not judging their background, not acknowledging those acts is abdicating responsibility from them.

mariaalice

http://humanrights.ie/constitution-of-ireland/st-patricks-institution-report-some-thoughts/.



http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015121400018?opendocument


Its all to do with Ireland attempting to ratify the UN declaration of human rights.

Sending someone under 18 to a prison is not right in a modern society, yet at the same time the issue is very complex when dealing with extremity violent young offenders.

mariaalice

I know this is never going to happen however:

Any legal theorist or social science theorist anyone involved in writing reports or in involved in human and civil rights as a career, or lectures in the same area ( careers which can be both lucrative, and sought after ) should be obliged to work on the front-line for at least 6 months), implementing their recommendations. They should be obliged to consider the contradictions inherent in the issues they are publishing about.

Gatling

mariaalice wrote: »

Sending someone under 18 to a prison is not right in a modern society, yet at the same time the issue is very complex when dealing with extremity violent young offenders.

So what do you do ,
Mollycoddling has failed,

We need to now say that for the most part there sent to oberstown because of criminal activity plain and simple,
Prison style rules and regulations and enforcement is seriously required

mariaalice

The United Kingdom has three separate and distinct criminal justice systems: England & Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland. Young offenders are often dealt with by the Youth Offending Team.

In England & Wales the age of criminal responsibility is set at 10. Young offenders aged 10 to 17 (i.e. up to their eighteenth birthday) are classed as a juvenile offender. Between the ages of 18 and 21 (i.e. up to their twenty-first birthday) they are classed as young offenders. Offenders aged 21 and over are known as adult offenders.

In Scotland the age of criminal responsibility was formerly set at 8, one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility in Europe. It has since been raised to 12 by the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, which received Royal Assent on 6 August 2010.[1][2]

In Northern Ireland it is 10.

Northern Europe[edit]
In Sweden, the age of criminal responsibility is set at 15 since 1902.[3]

Her Majesty's Young Offender Institution (or HMYOI) is a type of British prison intended for offenders aged between 18 and 20,[1] although some prisons (particularly Ashfield[2] and Huntercombe[3]) cater for younger offenders from ages 15 to 17, who are classed as juvenile offenders.[4] Typically those aged under 15 will be held in a Secure Children's Home and those over 15 will be held in either a Young Offender Institution or Secure Training Centre.[5] Generally a young offender is regarded as such until the date of their 21st or 22nd birthday, whereupon he or she will be sent to an adult prison or can remain in the YOI until they turn 22 if deemed appropriate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Young_Offender_Institution

mariaalice

Gatling wrote: »

So what do you do ,
Mollycoddling has failed,

We need to now say that for the most part there sent to oberstown because of criminal activity plain and simple,
Prison style rules and regulations and enforcement is seriously required

How come everything is so black and white for you.

Its not a choice of mollycoddling or prison, maybe there are other ways of doing things, new ways of thinking and looking at issues.

um7y1h83ge06nx

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/staff-member-injured-in-oberstown-riots-needs-reconstructive-surgery-on-his-face-35010185.html

Staff member injured in Oberstown riots needs 'reconstructive surgery on his face'

A staff member injured in Monday night’s riot in Oberstown has been left needing plastic surgery. The man was attacked by up to eight teens who broke his nose. The man was also left with severe lacerations in his face and needs reconstructive surgery.

These are the people that deserve pity and these are the people whose voices should be heard, not "young people" who made a conscious decision to attack and slash him.

Gatling

Edward Microscopic Tutu wrote: »

These are the people that deserve pity and these are the people whose voices should be heard, not "young people" who made a conscious decision to attack and slash him.

Unfortunately we live with people whom believe hugs and mollycoddling makes its all better for our young thugs ,

God forbid we expect them to face any kind of consequences what's so ever

andekwarhola

Listening to somebody from the IPRT this morning, castigating the industrial action. It's a bit of an unlovable situation for the staff: basically being told to accept adverse conditions under blackmail (the kids have run amok solely because of you, etc) of sorts .

end of the road

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately we live with people whom believe hugs and mollycoddling makes its all better for our young thugs ,

we don't.

Gatling wrote: »

God forbid we expect them to face any kind of consequences what's so ever

i think you will find we do expect it.

twowheelsonly

end of the road wrote: »

we don't.

We do actually.

The Prison Service is practically run by Probation and Welfare nowadays.

The Minister for Justice is ex P&W. the head of the Prison Service and his No.2 are ex P&W. The Navy, Army and Gardai all have uniformed members at the top of their tree. Regardless of how they may have gotten there they all have the experience of working 'on the floor'. Probably 80%+ of the people running the Prison Service are civil servants and P&W Officers who have zero experience of working one on one with violent offenders or at the coalface in the prisons but they all have ideas on how it should be done.
Previous to this prisoners who played ball and treated staff with respect had no problems and had that respect reciprocated whilst those who kicked up and caused trouble were dealt with accordingly. Usually they wised up fairly quickly and most ended up playing ball. The general consensus amongst prisoners was that if you f***ed up then you deserved it and everyone understood that. There was a mutual understanding and for the most part it worked and everything ticked along nicely.
Nowadays it's like a race to see who can make the most complaints and which category of complaint they can make. (Forms to do so and special boxes to post them in are actually dotted throughout each prison !!) It's tippy-toes now for the staff which has had a detrimental effect on the effectiveness of prisons and the ability of staff to run them. It's P.C. gone too far.

end of the road

twowheelsonly wrote: »

We do actually.

The Prison Service is practically run by Probation and Welfare nowadays.

The Minister for Justice is ex P&W. the head of the Prison Service and his No.2 are ex P&W. The Navy, Army and Gardai all have uniformed members at the top of their tree. Regardless of how they may have gotten there they all have the experience of working 'on the floor'. Probably 80%+ of the people running the Prison Service are civil servants and P&W Officers who have zero experience of working one on one with violent offenders or at the coalface in the prisons but they all have ideas on how it should be done.
Previous to this prisoners who played ball and treated staff with respect had no problems and had that respect reciprocated whilst those who kicked up and caused trouble were dealt with accordingly. Usually they wised up fairly quickly and most ended up playing ball. The general consensus amongst prisoners was that if you f***ed up then you deserved it and everyone understood that. There was a mutual understanding and for the most part it worked and everything ticked along nicely.
Nowadays it's like a race to see who can make the most complaints and which category of complaint they can make. (Forms to do so and special boxes to post them in are actually dotted throughout each prison !!) It's tippy-toes now for the staff which has had a detrimental effect on the effectiveness of prisons and the ability of staff to run them. It's P.C. gone too far.

pc doesn't exist. again i keep having to repeat this but i'm happy to do so until people wake up. the prisons are ran the same today as they have been for years bar the adding of the complaint form system, which is better then prisoners rioting if they have an issue.

FGR

end of the road wrote: »

pc doesn't exist. bar the adding of the complaint form system, which is better then prisoners rioting if they have an issue.

So you think that if the complaint doesn't go in their favour that they'll go on their merry way?

JupiterKid

They may be young but these teenagers are violent offenders. They need to be dealt with accordingly. The facial injuries by a staff member show just how far these little thugs are prepared to go.

From looking at the website, it looks like Oberstown has indeed been run by PC luvvies who will only get bitten in the arse. We need to be tough with these offenders. Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

FGR

JupiterKid wrote: »

Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

A caveat has to be that rehabilitation will be provided once they're willing to engage in it and show positive outcomes.

Lads who sign up for courses just for the sake of additional benefits should be required to show results before being provided with same. It's gotten far too soft.

foggy_lad

JupiterKid wrote: »

They may be young but these teenagers are violent offenders. They need to be dealt with accordingly. The facial injuries by a staff member show just how far these little thugs are prepared to go.

From looking at the website, it looks like Oberstown has indeed been run by PC luvvies who will only get bitten in the arse. We need to be tough with these offenders. Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

All the Joe Duffy types who only ever dealt with these "kids" through toughened perspex screens don't really have a clue what is going on in places like Oberstown.

These "kids" are not little or indeed kids in any meaningful sense of the word!

Many are over 6' and 14-18st and very fit because they are all wannabe MMA cage fighters(thugs).

As in other countries we need proper boot camps and for those who "face up" to staff they should be brought to the ground with non lethal beanbag rounds and locked into a suitable restraint chair where they can not injure themselves and more importantly cant injure anyone else, Spit hoods and gags should be readily available.

end of the road

FGR wrote: »

So you think that if the complaint doesn't go in their favour that they'll go on their merry way?

i'm sure some won't but if the prison is staffed properly then they will be able to deal with the offender.

JupiterKid wrote: »

They may be young but these teenagers are violent offenders. They need to be dealt with accordingly. The facial injuries by a staff member show just how far these little thugs are prepared to go.

From looking at the website, it looks like Oberstown has indeed been run by PC luvvies who will only get bitten in the arse. We need to be tough with these offenders. Rehabilitation - yes, for sure but punishment as well.

incorrect, it's ran by pc doesn't exist non lovies who have to operate within the rules and regulations.

FGR wrote: »

A caveat has to be that rehabilitation will be provided once they're willing to engage in it and show positive outcomes.

Lads who sign up for courses just for the sake of additional benefits should be required to show results before being provided with same. It's gotten far too soft.

it hasn't gotten one bit soft. your suggestion has all ready been implemented

foggy_lad wrote: »

All the Joe Duffy types who only ever dealt with these "kids" through toughened perspex screens don't really have a clue what is going on in places like Oberstown.

These "kids" are not little or indeed kids in any meaningful sense of the word!

Many are over 6' and 14-18st and very fit because they are all wannabe MMA cage fighters(thugs).

As in other countries we need proper boot camps and for those who "face up" to staff they should be brought to the ground with non lethal beanbag rounds and locked into a suitable restraint chair where they can not injure themselves and more importantly cant injure anyone else, Spit hoods and gags should be readily available.

all of that is all ready done. if people did research rather then believing the rags then they would actually know the reality. not the reality that the rags want you to believe.

JupiterKid

The Oberstown website states that visiting hours are from 10am to 5pm daily. That in itself sounds a bit soft to me. Helll, I was in alcohol rehab and visiting times were strictly 3-5 weekends only.

The wording on the website also suggests a "gently, gently" approach to these young violent offenders. I'm not suggesting bringing back beatings but there should be more punishment for these hooligans.

LW91

"Smithers, release the hounds!"

Samaris

As a matter of interest, how young is too young for some of the suggestions being made in this thread? The "killing them all" ones? Oberstown does or did take children as young as ten and yeah, I do have to say god knows what sort of life they've had when they're committing criminal acts by the age of ten.

It -is- difficult to rehabilitate teenagers. Especially as while there might be a rare few people "born evil"*, a lot of young teenagers who commit actually awful crimes (I'm not talking about loitering or shoplifting) have had the deck stacked against them throughout. If you're born into a family where drug-taking is the norm, socialisation and early childhood training is poor and nutrition may or may not be dodgy, the brain doesn't develop quite the way it should. Obviously this does not mean that they should be allowed to run wild and hurt other people. No-one is saying that. And it also doesn't mean that everyone who goes through these awful circumstances does or will commit crimes either. But it might be worth bearing in mind before going for the "kill them all and let God sort them out" solution.

Given that this is also completely illegal, people do have to work within the law. And it's -possible- that after decades of truly appalling systems for dealing with unwanted children (or young offenders), it's gone too far the other way. Without a lot more research, I couldn't say. Oberstown does or did seem to have an "unacceptably**" high recidivism rate (up to 75% at the time of the report), so something needs improvement, but I am unsure what. Unfortunately, if you take a bunch of mostly uneducated young criminals who have rarely to ever been trained and taught how to act like normal people and subject them to the sort of punishment this thread is diving for, all you'll probably be doing to them is more of the same (plus fire hose. Most people don't have access to a fire hose). As can be seen in the case histories of some of them, that hasn't worked so far.



*Jō 'Kamisaku' comes to mind.
**I put that in inverted commas because I'm quoting an official HIPA (?) report on the place

Little CuChulainn

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately we live with people whom believe hugs and mollycoddling makes its all better for our young thugs ,

We don't just live with them, we are governed by them. FG have made the juvenile justice system into a farce. It was never perfect but it use to be much more effective at rehabilitation.