Youths Rioting -ERU deployed(mod warning in op)

tomofson

Donald Trump wrote: »

You can't assure me of that. Unless you know all of the inmates and their backgrounds. It's irrelevant as neither of us can give definitive proof on here. Due to the press laws, if an underage child of a well known and flash Dublin "gangster" gets sent away for a year or two for stabbing someone to death in an unprovoked attack, it can't be reported in a manner that everyone will know about it, and even if you know about it, you won't have a source to prove it.


As for the sex offenders, where do you think they go?

There are three and only three youth detention facilities left. All three are on that "campus". Oberstown Boys, Oberstown girls and Trinity House.
Sources:
http://www.dcya.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/YouthJustice/detentionmenu.htm
http://www.iyjs.ie/en/IYJS/print/WP08000052

Trinity house use to be the most secure detention centre in the country. Now the whole campus is high security. Oberstown used to be almost like an open prison. Now they are all behind the same layer of security.

Trinity house is reopening and is now going to be used solely for prisoners on remand. Source:
http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Highlights/154568/Behind_the_walls_of_Oberstown_Children_Detention_Centre

On remand means they are awaiting trial and have not been convicted.

So if they aren't locking up the convicted rapists (U18) in Trinity house, which of the other two places do you think they are being put? Oberstown girls school or Oberstown boys school? Have a think. And note that Oberstown is in both the titles.


I don't think I will comment any more on this story

As far as I could remember rapists where sent to trinity, I had a conversation with a social worker years ago about this subject and he said trinity houses sex offenders... Things do have a way of getting out into the public. In a home I lived in way back in the day it was alleged that a resident had done something to hes younger sister (she made a complaint about him or something) anyway within a few weeks of that persons arrival everyone knew about that accusation and he never denied it when confronted about it he just said hes a different person now...Point being skeletons have a way of getting out of the closet...

I think the whole country knows that particular case about the well known criminals son, the whole country practically knew the day after it happened and he hasn't been convicted or sentenced yet... Again it comes up for sentencing the judge might release hes identity to the public. Anyway thats all besides the point...

Donald Trump

tomofson wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

You can't assure me of that. Unless you know all of the inmates and their backgrounds. It's irrelevant as neither of us can give definitive proof on here. Due to the press laws, if an underage child of a well known and flash Dublin "gangster" gets sent away for a year or two for stabbing someone to death in an unprovoked attack, it can't be reported in a manner that everyone will know about it, and even if you know about it, you won't have a source to prove it.


As for the sex offenders, where do you think they go?

There are three and only three youth detention facilities left. All three are on that "campus". Oberstown Boys, Oberstown girls and Trinity House.
Sources:
http://www.dcya.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/YouthJustice/detentionmenu.htm
http://www.iyjs.ie/en/IYJS/print/WP08000052

Trinity house use to be the most secure detention centre in the country. Now the whole campus is high security. Oberstown used to be almost like an open prison. Now they are all behind the same layer of security.

Trinity house is reopening and is now going to be used solely for prisoners on remand. Source:
http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Highlights/154568/Behind_the_walls_of_Oberstown_Children_Detention_Centre

On remand means they are awaiting trial and have not been convicted.

So if they aren't locking up the convicted rapists (U18) in Trinity house, which of the other two places do you think they are being put? Oberstown girls school or Oberstown boys school? Have a think. And note that Oberstown is in both the titles.


I don't think I will comment any more on this story

As far as I could remember rapists where sent to trinity, I had a conversation with a social worker years ago about this subject and he said trinity houses sex offenders... Things do have a way of getting out into the public. In a home I lived in way back in the day it was alleged that a resident had done something to hes younger sister (she made a complaint about him or something) anyway within a few weeks of that persons arrival everyone knew about that accusation and he never denied it when confronted about it he just said hes a different person now...Point being skeletons have a way of getting out of the closet...

I think the whole country knows that particular case about the well known criminals son, the whole country practically knew the day after it happened and he hasn't been convicted or sentenced yet... Again it comes up for sentencing the judge might release hes identity to the public. Anyway thats all besides the point...

It wasn't "for" rapists but they would have been sent there. Same as how Mountjoy isn't "for" rapists but there would be some there.

The worst bastards would have gone to Trinity house back when it was the highest security facility. It is not any more. Now all three are more or less the same according to what I've read. And according to the Pat Kenny interview above, it will only be used for remand prisoners.

The likes of this animal was there. One of those later killed himself. And fuck him. I am sure most people are glad he is dead. Regardless of his socio-economic background. It's a pity the rest didn't do likewise

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-rule-out-foul-play-as-gang-rapist-is-found-hanged-in-cell-26813916.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-gets-21-years-for-part-in-gang-rape-208973.html

tomofson

Donald Trump wrote: »

It wasn't "for" rapists but they would have been sent there. Same as how Mountjoy isn't "for" rapists but there would be some there.

The worst bastards would have gone to Trinity house back when it was the highest security facility. It is not any more. Now all three are more or less the same according to what I've read. And according to the Pat Kenny interview above, it will only be used for remand prisoners.

The likes of this animal was there. The one that killed himself. And fuck him. I am sure most people are glad he is dead. Regardless of his socio-economic background.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-rule-out-foul-play-as-gang-rapist-is-found-hanged-in-cell-26813916.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-gets-21-years-for-part-in-gang-rape-208973.html

I don't know if being glad someone is dead is ever a healthy position to be in. There is a big difference between not feeling sorry for someone and being glad they are dead. Personally I don't think I would ever be glad someone is dead especially if they never done anything on me personally. I do think that persons socio economic background would come into it I can remember the Robert Holohan case in cork I came across a boards thread a while ago which i cannot seem to find again which was full of supportive and sympathetic comments towards the killer. You cant honestly tell me if he was from a working class or deprived background people would be as sympathetic towards him...

There is an underline issue of snobbery in a lot of these cases people do seem to be much more forgiven if the evil doer is from a more privileged background.

Esel

Full disclosure here: totally ignorant of the current situation and background.

However:

Troll = Red Flag

Gunship = Free fire Zone

Jawgap

Edward Microscopic Tutu wrote: »

Hmm, I'm terrible but I can't help of thinking of inappropriate song titles for the situation - Sleep Now In The Fire by Rage Against The Machine.

Rubber Bullets (10 cc)

Sergeant Baker started talkin'
With a bullhorn in his hand.
He was cool; he was clear;
He was always in command.
He said "Blood will flow;
Here Padre,
Padre, you talk to your boys..."
"Trust in me,
God will come to set you free."

twowheelsonly

Oops69 wrote: »

staff should be sacked here, irresponsible desertion of their duties

They've been warning about it and threatening to walk out for years. hardly their fault if no-one would listen. they might now !!

Rashers72 wrote: »

I would imagine the rehabilitation rate is very very small - anyone know?

Two former Youth Detention centres, Spike Island and Shanganagh, both run by the Prison Service, were shut down 'to save money' by Michael McDowell. These two had the best rates of rehabilitation in the country with the lowest rates of recidivism. McDowell hated the Prison Officers though and basically closed these down because they wouldn't agree with him.

CruelCoin

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Sending the ERU in is retarded. What are they going to do, start shooting people? If it's a riot, then send in riot police to baton the bollix out of them.

Between you and me, not exactly great loss to the nation in they went in guns blazing.

Drumorig

The staff should be sacked. They knew damn well they were inciting a riot.
Now it'll be see, we need more money and overtime to prevent this happening again.

Leaving em locked up with no breakfast over pay issues, ye, that'll end well!

um7y1h83ge06nx

The views expressed by many on this thread (myself included) is in reaction to the perceived lack of law and order and consequences for many criminals in this country.

I genuinely am waiting for the government and staff of this facility to be blamed for last night. It is a trend that criminals are not being held accountable for their actions, it's more the fault of society, government and lack of resources.

The criminals that caused this damage last night should be housed in more basic facilities, with no mattresses or timber furniture etc., that would provide less fuel for fires given that this has been a recurring issue at the facility.

Jawgap

Drumorig wrote: »

The staff should be sacked. They knew damn well they were inciting a riot.
Now it'll be see, we need more money and overtime to prevent this happening again.

Leaving em locked up with no breakfast over pay issues, ye, that'll end well!

....how so?

Having been physically assaulted, and presumably endured an atmosphere where the risk of assault was present, they said enough is enough and staged a limited industrial action.....

.....it's not like they opened the bedroom doors and started goading the residents with "come and have a go, if you think you're hard enough!!"

I wouldn't be too surprised if none of the little darlings are prosecuted for their criminality.

MilesMorales1

Is Oberstown all male/female or mixed? Out of a mild interest. I have no solution to the problem mind, since while I think there should be harsher discipline in this sort of this thing, I don't think shooting people should ever be a thing we seriously suggest for a bunch of teenagers in a civilised democracy.

shoot em when they're older :pac:

suicide_circus

Did anyone else hear that Newstalk piece last week when pat kenny went to Oberstown and spoke with pat bergin, the director of the facility? Bergin made a big point about how they don't call those incarcerated their as inmates, prisoners or even residents...YOUNG PEOPLE is the preferred term in that place.

Drumorig

Jawgap wrote: »

....how so?

Having been physically assaulted, and presumably endured an atmosphere where the risk of assault was present, they said enough is enough and staged a limited industrial action.....

.....it's not like they opened the bedroom doors and started goading the residents with "come and have a go, if you think you're hard enough!!"

I wouldn't be too surprised if none of the little darlings are prosecuted for their criminality.

God love them, did they think they were getting jobs as teachers or something.

Common sense will tell you what they done will cause a backlash, the staff and unions knew this. To say they didn't would be naive.

Jawgap

Drumorig wrote: »

God love them, did they think they were getting jobs as teachers or something.

Common sense will tell you what they done will cause a backlash, the staff and unions knew this. To say they didn't would be naive.

No, but this isn't the Victorian era either and employers are supposed to take reasonable precautions to protect their employees.

Btw, given that the Dublin Bus drivers are about to walk off the job does that mean it's ok for affected passengers to burn the buses?

Drumorig

Passengers v prisoners. A bit of a difference there.

Same thing happened in belmarsh, cutbacks lead to staff inciting/letting it happen for more money. It's a fairly common theme in prisons worldwide.

It's about getting the media on board to justify more money. None of the staff would be surprised at what happened.

nullzero

Drumorig wrote: »

God love them, did they think they were getting jobs as teachers or something.

Common sense will tell you what they done will cause a backlash, the staff and unions knew this. To say they didn't would be naive.

I pity those people, working with young offenders in this country is akin to banging your head against a wall for money.

We have a justice system which allows these little thugs to move from petty crime to serious and violent crime without fear of retribution. By the time these kids are old enough the Gardai who have been dealing with them unsuccessfully through their teenage years are ready to make sure the book is thrown at them and they typically wind up in prison finishing off their criminal apprenticeship.

We have give from being a society that brutalised young people physically and psychologically to brutalising them through inaction and political correctness, neither approach works so perhaps we should rethink how we approach the problem.

wp_rathead

suicide_circus wrote: »

Did anyone else hear that Newstalk piece last week when pat kenny went to Oberstown and spoke with pat bergin, the director of the facility? Bergin made a big point about how they don't call those incarcerated their as inmates, prisoners or even residents...YOUNG PEOPLE is the preferred term in that place.

What's wrong with that?

Jawgap

Drumorig wrote: »

Passengers v prisoners. A bit of a difference there.

Same thing happened in belmarsh, cutbacks lead to staff inciting/letting it happen for more money. It's a fairly common theme in prisons worldwide.

It's about getting the media on board to justify more money. None of the staff would be surprised at what happened.

Well, you seem to regard legitimate industrial action as incitement to riot, I was just wondering if we could all get it on that kind of craic.

Here's a radical idea, how about the prisoners/residents/ young people don't engage in the type of criminality that got them a free stay in the first place, then staff won't feel the need to protect themselves by engaging in industrial action and the scrotes clients can avail of the ridiculously generous remission regime applicable to them

Drumorig

Jawgap wrote: »

Well, you seem to regard legitimate industrial action as incitement to riot, I was just wondering if we could all get it on that kind of craic.

Here's a radical idea, how about the prisoners/residents/ young people don't engage in the type of criminality that got them a free stay in the first place, then staff won't feel the need to protect themselves by engaging in industrial action and the scrotes clients can avail of the ridiculously generous remission regime applicable to them

Dunno what the wink is for. Your talking a load of rubbish.

No criminality, pfft, what planet are you living on. Welcome to the real world.

Jawgap

Drumorig wrote: »

Dunno what the wink is for. Your talking a load of rubbish.

No criminality, pfft, what planet are you living on. Welcome to the real world.

Because if they were capable of that type of thought they wouldn't be in there.

Lots of kids grow up without engaging in criminality, some flirt with it and get straightened out and a small minority get locked into it - if you are in Oberstown you're not there for nicking lollipops, so the staff deserve protection and if management won't facilitate it then you really can't blame the staff for doing something to stop having physical violence inflicted on them.

Drumorig

Jawgap wrote: »

Because if they were capable of that type of thought they wouldn't be in there.

Lots of kids grow up without engaging in criminality, some flirt with it and get straightened out and the a minority get locked into it - if you are in Oberstown you're not there for nicking lollipops, so the staff deserve protection and if management won't facilitate it then you really can't blame the staff for doing something to stop having physical violence inflicted on them.

Thats living in a bubble middle class thinking. No basis in reality. There will always be violence in prisons. Wishy washy nonsense wont change that.

Going by your comments and the thanks your getting it seems like the riot will achieve what it set out to do, ie more money... The prisoners were pawns and I'd guess only a small minority rioted. No way the majority wrecked the place.

Ken.

Mod- Ok folks lets reign it in a bit please. No more advocating extreme violence(attack choppers,napalm, etc).

Jawgap

Drumorig wrote: »

Thats living in a bubble middle class thinking. No basis in reality. There will always be violence in prisons. Wishy washy nonsense wont change that.

Going by your comments and the thanks your getting it seems like the riot will achieve what it set out to do, ie more money... The prisoners were pawns and I'd guess only a small minority rioted. No way the majority wrecked the place.

Actually, it's not. I was involved - not as a carer - with the administration of remand foster care in a local authority in the UK, so I've some small insight. I also grew up in an area that was definitely not middle class.

There will always be violent people in prison, it doesn't automatically follow that violence will be present there. The main problem, as I see it, that we have with the penal system here is its failure to acknowledge evil - a tiny few of the people we incarcerate are simply beyond redemption and leaving them in the general prison population leaves them free to infect others.

The riot will lead to more money being spent because damage will have to be repaired, standards upped and - probably - more staff employed to get tighter supervision ratios.

mariaalice

How are youth detention/intervention/therapeutic units manged in other countries? do they have the same problems as here?, Scotland is suppose to be a model of such units have anyone ever compared how they are managed in comparison to units that here. Has anyone ever looked at units that have less issue than others and tried to figure out why one systme does better that another.

How do you differentiate between those who have a conductive disorder/ mental health issues, and those who are purely engaged in criminal behaviour with no underlying issues?.

How do you solve the contradiction of a very rights based society with and expatiation of social norms.

Drumorig

Drumorig wrote: »

Thats living in a bubble middle class thinking. No basis in reality. There will always be violence in prisons. Wishy washy nonsense wont change that.

Going by your comments and the thanks your getting it seems like the riot will achieve what it set out to do, ie more money... The prisoners were pawns and I'd guess only a small minority rioted. No way the majority wrecked the place.

Wishy washy retort.

mariaalice

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, it's not. I was involved - not as a carer - with the administration of remand foster care in a local authority in the UK, so I've some small insight. I also grew up in an area that was definitely not middle class.

There will always be violent people in prison, it doesn't automatically follow that violence will be present there. The main problem, as I see it, that we have with the penal system here is its failure to acknowledge evil - a tiny few of the people we incarcerate are simply beyond redemption and leaving them in the general prison population leaves them free to infect others.

The riot will lead to more money being spent because damage will have to be repaired, standards upped and - probably - more staff employed to get tighter supervision ratios.

You will only bring the anti religion/anti Christianity brigade down on you if you talk about 'evil'.

Drumorig

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

Wishy washy retort.

What, the truth? Are you here trying to score virtual thanks? :rolleyes:

Jawgap

Drumorig wrote: »

What, the truth? Are you here trying to score virtual thanks? :rolleyes:

What's the obsession with 'thankses' - God, you're not one of thooooooose posters are you

Drumorig

Drumorig wrote: »

What, the truth? Are you here trying to score virtual thanks? :rolleyes:

The truth is that you are another internet poster, weren't there so couldn't possibly know the truth.
By all means keep posting nonsensical BS.

Ken.

Mod-Bam bam,Drumorig and Jawgap. Knock it off. Take it to pm's if ye want to have a private discussion.