Youths Rioting -ERU deployed(mod warning in op)

mariaalice

My sensible husband has a great take on the issues in general, there was a little piece on C4 about an attempt to identify extremely dysfunctional family's in the UK, and give them warp around care, every thing from cleaning the rubbish from their homes, to school support, family support, metal health support, addiction support psychologists and psychiatrists and so on. It had very little to no effect.

My husbands take on it which I have come to agree with to an extent: is that a certain sub section of individuals/ family's want to living like that they don't see rubbish in the front and back garden, living with multiple animals, drugs, alcohol, and a complete lack of routine go to bed when you like get up when you like, send the children to school some days or not on other days, or combined with criminal behaviour or violent behaviour. They don't see anything wrong with their lifestyle. They don't identify with the social norm of the majority and often think staff trying to 'help/support' them are fools and that they could make more money in an hour dealing that the worker makes in a week.

mariaalice

This is interesting if anyone has ever watched shameless, the writer of the came from a similar background to the program, yet made different choices about his life than the norms of the background he came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Abbott

Sierra Oscar

This was inevitable. A handful of violent young offenders were transferred from St. Patrick's Institution (beside Mountjoy) to Oberstown. The prison guards in St. Pat's struggled to keep these offenders under control, yet it was somehow deemed wise to transfer them to a low security setting where there are social workers and no prison guards.

People need to realise that there are some very violent young offenders out there, and the place for them is in a prison and not a 'education centre' as Oberstown is officially known as. These guys are not only terrorising the staff - they've also been beating up other kids based there.

livedadream

mariaalice wrote: »

This is interesting if anyone has ever watched shameless, the writer of the came from a similar background to the program, yet made different choice about his life that the norms of the background he came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Abbott

jesus, i knew he had a tough enough upbringing but rape? suicide attempt? jesus. thats fukcing bleak.

Drumorig

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

Wishy washy retort.

What, the truth? Are you here trying to score virtual thanks? :rolleyes:

mariaalice

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This was inevitable. A handful of violent young offenders were transferred from St. Patrick's Institution (beside Mountjoy) to Oberstown. The prison guards in St. Pat's struggled to keep these offenders under control, yet it was somehow deemed wise to transfer them to a low security setting where there are social workers and no prison guards.

People need to realise that there are some very violent young offenders out there, and the place for them is in a prison and not a 'education centre' as Oberstown is officially known as. These guys are not only terrorising the staff - they've also been beating up other kids based there.

That is a huge question, at what age is an individual an adult and subject to adult sanctions?

andekwarhola

mariaalice wrote: »

That is a huge question, at what age is an individual an adult and subject to adult sanctions?

When they can run amok, set fire to buildings and seriously assault adult staff, one would imagine.

Agent Coulson

The fire station that sent crews to put out the fire was broken into while there and a car and personal items were stolen from the firemen.



No fcuking words for what should happen to the things that did that.

mynamejeff

tomofson wrote: »

You're sounding like donald trump now with all those fear mongering labels...

Nobody has been born into a care home in Ireland in a lot of years but they where born into circumstances beyond their control. I actually wasn't trying to suggest anyone was born into a care home in Ireland so I dont know where you pulled that one from... Why do you want the cops to knock around a bunch of disadvantaged young boys and girls? Did you have negative experiences with some? Where you attacked? Mugged? Or worse by people of low social economic income? Where does this anger and hate of the disadvantaged come from?


And just for the record no rapist would ever be held in oberstown there is a special unit called trinity house for young sex offenders...

What labels ? Crimes have labels and criminals get them . rape is committed by rapists thefts are committed by thief's ets etc , am i ment to accuse you of being like Clinton now ? ?

If you want to insist that they are disadvantaged youths (which is another argument ) fine but you must realize that they are disadvantaged youths that have committed horrible crimes against innocent people . Do you care at all or the victims of your poor little darlings ?
Yes i have been the victim of a crime but so have almost every person in ireland by now due to the break down of the justice system. I have also been in these "care facilities " and seen how they treat the places and staff.

As for trinity house lol are you talking about trinity house oberstown ?the one across the wall in the same complex ? is that the one ? if you dont know about something best to stay quite and use your university of life degree pal

Jawgap

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The fire station that sent crews to put out the fire was broken into while there and a car and personal items were stolen from the firemen.



No fcuking words for what should happen to the things that did that.

Probably opportunistic rather than linked specifically to the incident, but it's a pretty rough deal to spend your evening firefighting in what must've been difficult circumstances then come back to find your car gone!

https://twitter.com/dfbambulance/status/770613661102661632

Drumorig

Someone reported me so ill leave you ******s alone, im out...

mariaalice

why don't the children/young adults and their parents or guardians sue the state for care and support to be provided in a setting that does not house young adult violent criminals as well. No adult who was in need of therapeutic care or mental health care would put up with being told...your care will be provided in a setting housing violent criminals as well.

Letree

The youth currently housed in that centre will likely be a scourge on our society. They will end up costing us a fortune through crime, incarceration, welfare and legal aid. Just a thought.

livedadream

Letree wrote: »

The youth currently housed in that centre will likely be a scourge on our society. They will end up costing us a fortune through crime, incarceration, welfare and legal aid. Just a thought.

you need to have a chat with musketeer on this thread,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057639344&page=22

he wants them apprehended before they even commit a crime...

tomofson

Drumorig wrote: »

Someone reported me so ill leave you ******s alone, im out...

A lot of the posters on here can't handle a difference in opinion.

L.Jenkins

Staff say they fear for their safety. What do they expect, when they work in a facility that houses hooligans, whose ability to function in society is questionable at best.

The witness added there had been consternation in the area after the previous break-out attempt earlier this month in which teenage inmates armed with golf clubs and a ladder they stole from a storeroom attacked staff and then scaled the 30ft perimeter wall, All five were quickly arrested but local people said it was lucky they were caught so quickly.

Any sane minded person would fear for their safety in such a place, especially when they keep golf clubs on site, even if they are locked away.

twowheelsonly

Drumorig wrote: »

Passengers v prisoners. A bit of a difference there.

Same thing happened in belmarsh, cutbacks lead to staff inciting/letting it happen for more money. It's a fairly common theme in prisons worldwide.

It's about getting the media on board to justify more money. None of the staff would be surprised at what happened.

You really don't have a clue how things work do you ?
How much money are you talking about ? At what level of wages does it become acceptable to get assaulted whilst going about your working day ? You really think that staff anywhere really want to be involved in a riot ?
I've been in that situation and it's not something that I'd care to repeat anytime soon.

Read this from a month ago..

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/oberstown-youth-detention-centre-staff-frightened-they-may-be-killed-at-work-31429080.html


The people working in this place don't really have a clue and are not trained how to deal with violent disruptive prisoners. It's not their fault. Probation and Welfare would be classed as a 'caring' profession. They've been doing that for years up there but all of a sudden they have fellas that should be in jail landed on their doorstep and they're in the news every week. Put them back in jail where they belong and let the P&W staff get on with dealing the genuinely 'sad' cases whilst the jailers deal with the bad guys.

What really surprises me is that they have 200 staff up there !!

um7y1h83ge06nx

It may have seemed extreme to send in the ERU but in 1987 the SAS were sent into a Scottish prison to rescue prison wardens and put down a riot - link

If you google it it seems that they may have beaten the sh*t out of many prisoners, they definitely didn't go softly softly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/sas-man-denies-violent-lesson-1481657.html

Gatling

Edward Microscopic Tutu wrote: »

It may have seemed extreme to send in the ERU but in 1987 the SAS were sent into a Scottish prison to rescue prison wardens and put down a riot

The ARW (Army Ranger Wing) were deployed to mountjoy aswell after hostages were taken when word go to the prisoners they surrendered

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sleepy wrote: »

Could an "accident" with the fire hose not take care of the lads on the roof?

An "accident", like 'accidently' passing burning fuel through the hose instead of water ~ or are flame throwers frowned upon by the PC brigade?.

Mod-Banned

Jawgap

Kaden Gray Termination wrote: »

An "accident", like 'accidently' passing burning fuel through the hose instead of water ~ or are flame throwers frowned upon by the PC brigade?.

A mate of mine is a firefighter and I asked him once if he'd not be tempted to turn the hose on people who take to attacking them when they arrive to tackle a fire - typically a bonfire at Hallowe'en and he said it simply wasn't worth it - an 'accident' like that would cost you your career and most probably your job.

I'd say in this situation if they are still on the roof, the best bet would be to leave them......they'll soon get hungry;)

Rakish Paddy

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd say in this situation if they are still on the roof, the best bet would be to leave them......they'll soon get hungry;)

Then the feral scum can be lured down with snack boxes:
http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-cloverhill-snack-box-2253459-Aug2015/

nullzero

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

Then the feral scum can be lured down with snack boxes:
http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-cloverhill-snack-box-2253459-Aug2015/

Should have laced the chips with laxatives.

foggy_lad

Drumorig wrote: »

God love them, did they think they were getting jobs as teachers or something.

Common sense will tell you what they done will cause a backlash, the staff and unions knew this. To say they didn't would be naive.

That is exactly what their job is in Oberstown, they are not prison officers or wardens and are not trained in restraining violent offenders, they are trained to deal with less troublesome "young people" who may have quite serious issues in their lives that require care and compassion.

The problem is that the government has been sending much older and seriously violent hardened criminals with anger and mental health issues to this care home without the staff to handle them!

Staff are not allowed to hit or properly restrain these criminals and they know it! When one of these headbangers loses the plot the staff are supposed to retreat to a safe place and wait for the situation to calm down.

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Staff say they fear for their safety. What do they expect, when they work in a facility that houses hooligans, whose ability to function in society is questionable at best.



Any sane minded person would fear for their safety in such a place, especially when they keep golf clubs on site, even if they are locked away.

After the serious assaults on staff and break-out last week 4 staff members were suspended, probably for protecting themselves or for not preventing the break-out.

The minister for justice has nothing to do with this place and the inmates are mostly too old violent and too deep in the criminal world to be treated as children but the department for children still took this place under its remit!

the minister and department provide no support for the staff and will never back the staff over the criminals!

Rakish Paddy

nullzero wrote: »

Should have laced the chips with laxatives.

Or cyanide.

Wigglepuppy

tomofson wrote: »

Don't even try talking sense into the likes of that, those people never see the error in their ways... They want to see disadvantaged people beating for their own amusement says it all really.... The same way poor people used to be publicly hanged in england for stealing loafs of bread and rich peoples hats the likes of that individual would love to live in those times... The only downfall would be he couldn't pent hes inherent social economic snobbery over an internet forum which accepts and encourages it to the fullest...

Ok I know stuff like "bring back firing squads" is just provocative and "carry out public floggings" is not constructive, I also disagree that the softly softly approach to violent criminals is "the PC liberal brigade" - it's legislation and insufficient police resources.

But the rest of what you say - seriously. Only you are the one referring to their background. Everyone else here is referring to their behaviour, not where they are from at all. It's quite patronising to be honest to abdicate responsibility from someone based on their background - it's as if they are incapable of holding accountability because of where they are from. What about all the other people (the majority) from disadvantaged backgrounds who don't resort to violent crime sprees?

Saying people are looking for them to be punished merely because they are disadvantaged (and not because of their violent crimes) is incredibly dishonest - and it's baffling that you don't even take into consideration what they have done. And to compare them to desperately poor people who were hanged for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families in days of yore is incredibly inaccurate. Those people did not terrorise and assault others, they were driven to desperate measures. That was a time when there were no supports whatsoever for the marginalised, they were left to rot. People like social workers try to help the people this story is about - many start off with the same view as you - only to be met with hostility.

I have no doubt that their difficult upbringings are the reason for their anger, but they are still responsible for their own behaviour.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jawgap wrote: »

A mate of mine is a firefighter and I asked him once if he'd not be tempted to turn the hose on people who take to attacking them when they arrive to tackle a fire - typically a bonfire at Hallowe'en and he said it simply wasn't worth it - an 'accident' like that would cost you your career and most probably your job.

I'd say in this situation if they are still on the roof, the best bet would be to leave them......they'll soon get hungry;)

But you could make the roof a little slippery :P

FGR

People give out about how America has the highest prison population in the world.

I'll put it this way - The reason why we don't have something similar is due to the leniency of the judiciary in conjunction with the lack of prison spaces and the revolving door system that goes with it.

I would much rather have dangerous people kept away from the public for as long as possible so as to keep them safe from future harm by the same people.

The recidivism rate in Ireland during 2013 was 62.3% as per The Penal Reform Trust. Sure some people make mistakes but a majority of criminals are just that, criminals. The rates are higher if you include the number of times people have received the benefit of cautions as juveniles, first time offenders via adult caution and after the further opportunity of probation by the courts.

The only element of the Justice system that is trying to put the victim first is not the judicial system or the penal system, but the gardaí - and why bother when the criminal gets a slap on the wrist?

Oops69

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there, then again if SIPTU is running the place most will be on sick leave/ compassion leave / thinking about getting better leave , thinking about going on sick leave leave , someone-said-boo- to - me leave etc.etc. etc. bull**** excuse leave , so that number is probably accurate .

Gatling

Oops69 wrote: »

i can't believe there's 2OO staff employed there,

At any time around 30-40 are on sick leave