Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

CMOTDibbler

BoatMad wrote: »

partly correct, you must have a receptive audience as well

Hence the solution of selective internment , the problem is not conducive to being solved by conventional constitutional means

Internment is an incredibly blunt weapon and has never worked when used as a means of negating terrorism.

The ones you intern get more radicalised and the ones you don't have a ready made motive to radicalise. Assuming you even intern the right ones.

Accurate, timely intelligence is the best tool. Simple security measures would have prevented this. He only had to drive on the pavement to circumvent the barriers ffs.

BoatMad

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Internment is an incredibly blunt weapon and has never worked when used as a means of negating terrorism.

The ones you intern get more radicalised and the ones you don't have a ready made motive to radicalise. Assuming you even intern the right ones.

Accurate, timely intelligence is the best tool. Simple security measures would have prevented this. He only had to drive on the pavement to circumvent the barriers ffs.

you miss the point

firstly aggressive intelligence methodologies are in themselves a threat to civil society, all these attacks cause us to further and further enact repressive laws that affect ALL citizenry , daily we give the police and intelligence services more and more power .

This is what IS and the fanatics want , they want to impact ordinary citizens daily lives and the state they live in.

That is not a solution, you cannot protect mass groups of people in the street or in open areas, the next thing is you turn public gatherings in armed fortress events and then terroists will think up a clever way to kill. remember they only have to succeed once, the security forces have to succeed for ever

NO, The solution is not further security measure that impact society, we have to aggressively enact measure that would not be considered normal under different circumstances

Internment has a role to play , it was used in the US, it was threatened by DeValera against the IRA ( a threat they took very seriously )

is it a blunt method , absolutely , the alternative is to force modifications to society as a whole and that is not acceptable

CMOTDibbler

BoatMad wrote: »

you miss the point

firstly aggressive intelligence methodologies are in themselves a threat to civil society, all these attacks cause us to further and further enact repressive laws that affect ALL citizenry , daily we give the police and intelligence services more and more power .

This is what IS and the fanatics want , they want to impact ordinary citizens daily lives and the state they live in.

That is not a solution, you cannot protect mass groups of people in the street or in open areas, the next thing is you turn public gatherings in armed fortress events and then terroists will think up a clever way to kill. remember they only have to succeed once, the security forces have to succeed for ever

NO, The solution is not further security measure that impact society, we have to aggressively enact measure that would not be considered normal under different circumstances

Internment has a role to play , it was used in the US, it was threatened by DeValera against the IRA ( a threat they took very seriously )

is it a blunt method , absolutely , the alternative is to force modifications to society as a whole and that is not acceptable

I didn't suggest any of that. You've taken what I said and run a hundred miles with it. All the tools are already there. It's about co-operation between countries. A guy who goes home for a holiday but doesn't actually go home, an extra barrier on a pavement; these aren't aggressive, just sensible.

BoatMad

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I didn't suggest any of that. You've taken what I said and run a hundred miles with it. All the tools are already there. It's about co-operation between countries. A guy who goes home for a holiday but doesn't actually go home, an extra barrier on a pavement; these aren't aggressive, just sensible.

again , NO, to protect citizens in open democracies , from a threat of essentially fanatical violence on a kamikaze level, takes far more then "co-operation between countries"

These people are often citizens, radicalised through anything from mere social media to interactions with other radicalised citizens

Intelligence is not enough, its too weak it has failed to prevent outrages , yes it has stopped some ( or many ) , but then we are into an " acceptable level of violence ", a situation that Northern Ireland was long saddled with .


And again you peddle views that dont tie with reality , most of frances outrages were carried out by french citizens , hence you intelligence led systems are not enough. To look into our own citizenry , we then have to begin to suspend freedoms for ALL citizens, thats not acceptable.

Equally enhanced public security meaning endless security restrictions at events, airports , public places, etc , are in effect forcing the general citizenry to accept further and further restrictions on personal freedom, in order to satisfy the fact that we must be " fair "

we are getting well past the point of " fairness "

Im not saying such actions are " fair " , and yes they will target and affect innocent Muslims etc , but thats not the point. what we are doing today is not enough to prevent such outrages , unless we radically up our game , more will occur

the fact is irrespective of my views, outrages radicalise the ordinary citizen, and that radicalisation then forces governments to act in ways they would not normally do so.

if they dont act, the result is in effect a rebellion amongst the citizenry and its beginning to happen in the huge rise for xenophobic parties in the EU .

The Rape of Lucretia

BoatMad wrote: »

any people are depressive , they dont drive a semi through a crowd

lets not get side tracked here , this action was clearly as a result of the world wide call by Jihadists to strike against western citizenry , the precise means and how it was enacted and by whom are of little consequence in the bigger picture

The Muslim element could prompt thoughts of a kill two birds with one stone nature - suicide, plus, do his bit for the Jihad, get the 7 virgins etc. It could seem like a good overall package to someone with suicidal ideation and increase their chances of both carrying out the suicide, and committing an atrocity such as this one. Islam thus being a catalyst to slaughter.

fly_agaric

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Many people with mental illnesses have killed other people. How many mass shootings in the US were perpetrated by marginalised and unstable people?

To say that this was 'clearly' a result of an IS call to arms is a massive overstatement. You might have decided that it is, you might even be right. But at this point it is certainly not clear.

There seems to be this unwillingness to take things the jihadis have said, and what their followers do at face value.
The call has gone out from the mother-ship (IS + its leaders, since Osama Bin Laden is dead) to take up arms against the "infidels" (seems to be pretty much any infidels, any means, any where) and all sorts (individual crazies, as well as more (edit) "professional" terrorists?) are coming out of the wood work to answer it!

Fleawuss

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The Muslim element could prompt thoughts of a kill two birds with one stone nature - suicide, plus, do his bit for the Jihad, get the 7 virgins etc. It could seem like a good overall package to someone with suicidal ideation and increase their chances of both carrying out the suicide, and committing an atrocity such as this one. Islam thus being a catalyst to slaughter.

An interesting angle: a quick look at redemption in Islam reveals nothing about jihad being a route to it. Maybe this is another IS corruption. It actually sounds more like the Christian motivation for the crusades. Wouldn't that be an irony for IS. Deus vult etc.

KingBrian2

According to Islam Jihad is justified only when the ruler is unjust so having a dictatorship is not necessary a problem for Muslims. Up to now the difficulties in that part of the world is the absence of righteous leaders who treat Muslims fairly. We in the west have gotten it into ourselves that they want to be granted freedom & democracy. They don't they want to live as pious Muslims and we have to end this interference in their politics. These terror incidents are the consequence of our misunderstanding of their belief system. In our religion and secular viewpoint Kings, dictators, Ceasars and Popes are subservient to the people. This concept is lost on the average Muslim in Saudi Arabia who respects his King and spends a good deal of his time praying.

IrishWandering

Horrible attack, these disgusting terrorists needs to be put to an end.

HardenendMan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

This concept is lost on the average Muslim in Saudi Arabia who respects his King and spends a good deal of his time praying.

So the average Muslim is a fcuking retard, just like the average Christian.

Gamb!t

FizzleSticks wrote: »

They are trying to prove how much of a threat they still are, at the end of last year I knew these kind of incidents were when and not if anymore but I have a horrible feeling we're about to see so many more before the year is out based on what they have been spouting in the recent videos.

What have they been saying ?

Giacomo McGubbin

HardenendMan wrote: »

So the average Muslim is a fcuking retard, just like the average Christian.

I bet the driver of that lorry referred to people outside of his group in exactly the way you do.

BuilderPlumber

Some evil drug dealer in France needs to be taken down soon. That this person can act like this and try and get the country to allow his criminal activities be legalised by terrorising the people should not be allowed. This nonbeliever needs to be taken down as soon as possible.

BuilderPlumber

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

I bet the driver of that lorry referred to people outside of his group in exactly the way you do.

That lorry driver thought he could do this, survive and be rewarded. All for his best buddy supplier of cocaine and heroin who wants to terrorise France and Europe to get the governments to ease on criminalising their business entities.

BuilderPlumber

ISIS = drug dealer/gangster international lobby group dedicated to committing acts of terrorism to pressure governments to allow their operations to exist legally. Or to be paid protection money to be taken off their list of target countries.

Gamb!t

I try to get to France a couple of times a year but I see myself getting more and more nervous now of visiting large crowded places there,I just hope it wont become a no go zone as I don't see France over coming this problem anytime soon unfortunately and this horrible attack was a dagger in the heart to the French people on Bastille day of all days as its symbolic and they love to celebrate.

I feel so sad and pissed off for the victims that were there just to watch a firework display,the French people and other innocent people living there that this has happened again. I have friends living in France that are still on edge after what happened in Paris last year and cant imagine what must be going through their minds after Nice.
RIP to the victims.

A Primal Nut

It's being well reported that most Europeans who went to fight for ISIS were from middle-class backgrounds with good education and upbringing. The idea that only the poor and marginalized become radicalized has no basis in reality.

A Primal Nut

BoatMad wrote: »

boege wrote: »

If that all you need to confirm this is a terrorist attack then end of discussion. Do you have a reliable source for someone hearing him shout that (as he drove along inside a truck cabin, ploughing through screaming people, and police shooting at him?)

And, I know Nice quite well, heading there in two weeks. The Muslim area is near the end where he began his awful deed and where the muslim community would have gone to view the fireworks. I think his first victim was a French muslim mother and reported as dressed in traditional muslim outfit.

I am not arguing this is definitely not IS backed, just saying evidence to date is limited and other possibilities exist.

on the basis of reasonable deduction , i.e. his background as a Muslim, and the fact that IS have claimed him as a " fellow Travellor " we , I think, can adopt a reasonable premise that this was clearly a Islamist Terror strike ( of one form or another )

lets stop pussy footing around, and trying to dissemble , This attack was clearly in the vein of Paris and elsewhere

in my view Internment is now the only option, the US did it in WW2

His religion is not incidental. All the terrorist attacks in France recently have been carried out by Muslims, not Jews, Christians, Hindus or Atheists. What, you think it's a complete co-incidence?

20Cent

Those who want to intern/deport Muslims, how would you propose identifying them?

pickarooney

boege wrote: »

You are suggesting that all muslims with suicidal tendencies are terrorists which is plain wrong.

A bitter suicidal man who takes out other people in taking his own life is not doing so to further any cause other than his own desires. His religion is incidental.

An IS suicidal mission, in their own words, is attempting to kill as many infidels as possible because of blind indoctrination by IS. I don't disagree that there there is an IS terrorist treat in Europe - just leaving open the possibility that the actions of this man don't yet fit in that box.

This is almost verbatim the plot of the series Spin (Les Hommes De l'Ombre).

CMOTDibbler

fly_agaric wrote: »

There seems to be this unwillingness to take things the jihadis have said, and what their followers do at face value.
The call has gone out from the mother-ship (IS + its leaders, since Osama Bin Laden is dead) to take up arms against the "infidels" (seems to be pretty much any infidels, any means, any where) and all sorts (individual crazies, as well as more (edit) "professional" terrorists?) are coming out of the wood work to answer it!

The call to arms is a bit more specific than 'any infidels'. It's specifically targeted at members of the coalition against IS. Which of course includes France.

If this guy just decided to hitch his rage to the IS cause in order to give himself some warped justification that's very worrying. He certainly didn't seem to be equipped like any of the previous terrorists; such as in November or the Charlie Hebdo attacks. He had one 7.65mm pistol, a mag and ammo. Everything else found on him were replicas: A replica pistol, two replica assault rifles and a dummy grenade.

In view of what he was doing, having this stuff seems completely pointless. What did he think he was going to do? Point a plastic assault rifle at armed police and shout 'bang'?

The_Kew_Tour

20Cent wrote: »

Those who want to intern/deport Muslims, how would you propose identifying them?

It's not just ordinary good Muslims who Wants to live in peace

It's the radicals that we want rid off. And the Cops know who these are. Time to send them to jail or deport them.

Zero tolerance allowed for this category

The Rape of Lucretia

HardenendMan wrote: »

So the average Muslim is a fcuking retard, just like the average Christian.

The average Christian is pretty harmless though. He just has imaginary conversations with his fictional friend in his head. Some Muslims are tacking onto that a belief that killing 'infidels' is a good thing. One is not a problem, the other is.

20Cent wrote: »

Those who want to intern/deport Muslims, how would you propose identifying them?

This is impractical and unfair. The reality the west has to accept now is that while maintaining tolerance and understanding, it is time to stop dancing around the topic that religions, and Islam particularly, is harmful, and people need to be helped to overcome it.
Without victimisation in any way, in the manner of the culture changes engineered to counter the harmful effects smoking or obesity, states need to acknowledge their responsibility to society and fund educational, public information, and schemes to help people leave religions in the ignorant and superstitious past. But without sanctioning anyone still in thrall to them, rather treating them more in line with those suffering a delusional mental illness - which is what surely, clinically, in the final analysis, what it is.

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

It's being well reported that most Europeans who went to fight for ISIS were from middle-class backgrounds with good education and upbringing. The idea that only the poor and marginalized become radicalized has no basis in reality.

It is probably more the fact that the "middle class & educated" ones can afford to get to the Middle East, the poor & marginalised ones would go if they could afford to travel there.

Being radicalised is one thing, having the means to actively get involved, is another.

CMOTDibbler

Deleted User wrote: »

It is probably more the fact that the "middle class & educated" ones can afford to get to the Middle East, the poor & marginalised ones would go if they could afford to travel there.

Being radicalised is one thing, having the means to actively get involved, is another.

I don't think that's the case at all. The media like to report these middle class recruits because of the interest value. If you look at the profiles of the Charlie Hebdo and Paris attackers, they're almost predominantly from the ghettos of cities in France and Belgium. It's not a huge expense to fly to Istanbul from mainland Europe and certainly well within the financial reach of anyone who wants to.

HardenendMan

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

I bet the driver of that lorry referred to people outside of his group in exactly the way you do.

You comparing me to a mass murderer? Classy.

If you don't know why religious people are fcuking retarded then...ill say no more.

fly_agaric

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The call to arms is a bit more specific than 'any infidels'. It's specifically targeted at members of the coalition against IS. Which of course includes France.

Its a bit broader than that. ISIS in Iraq/Syria kidnapped + executed 2 Japanese. Japanese also killed by fellow travellers in Bangladesh. I really don't know what connection they have to any of this. Of course we've also had our own victims of the Jihadis, and Ireland is listed as one of the "Crusader states", along with I think pretty much every country in Europe. Big powers, former colonial powers, victims of the colonial powers, the Scandinavians who have gone to bat repeatedly for the Palestinians over the years, doesn't seem to matter. Of course there are priorities like France, or the UK or the US but the target list is quite broad. The plots and attempted attacks will increase I think in these other countries when restive muslims can't travel to the IS Caliphate to "be all they can be" if it gets wiped out in the next year or so.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Everything else found on him were replicas: A replica pistol, two replica assault rifles and a dummy grenade.

In view of what he was doing, having this stuff seems completely pointless. What did he think he was going to do? Point a plastic assault rifle at armed police and shout 'bang'?

Who know what goes on in the mind of someone like that? I don't know. I don't really want to know. Maybe he wanted all his walter mitty toys beside him as he fulfilled some crackpot fantasy of being an IS "soldier" while knocking down families with his truck.

Fleawuss

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The average Christian is pretty harmless though. He just has imaginary conversations with his fictional friend in his head. Some Muslims are tacking onto that a belief that killing 'infidels' is a good thing. One is not a problem, the other is.


This is impractical and unfair. The reality the west has to accept now is that while maintaining tolerance and understanding, it is time to stop dancing around the topic that religions, and Islam particularly, is harmful, and people need to be helped to overcome it.
Without victimisation in any way, in the manner of the culture changes engineered to counter the harmful effects smoking or obesity, states need to acknowledge their responsibility to society and fund educational, public information, and schemes to help people leave religions in the ignorant and superstitious past. But without sanctioning anyone still in thrall to them, rather treating them more in line with those suffering a delusional mental illness - which is what surely, clinically, in the final analysis, what it is.

I agree with you a good way through that post until the mental illness bit. Religion may well be delusional but it may also be an adaptive mechanism to keep living in a world where life tends to be "nasty brutish and short".

I believe you are completely correct that the state needs to accept its responsibilities to society and tackle all religions so that their message of hate and exclusion be exposed. I think we all need to accept that we are living in a changed world and that the wide freedoms of Western society and its legal sub structures may be inadequate. I hope that we might face that without societal upheaval making it inevitable.

Grayson

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The average Christian is pretty harmless though. He just has imaginary conversations with his fictional friend in his head. Some Muslims are tacking onto that a belief that killing 'infidels' is a good thing. One is not a problem, the other is.

The average christian varies from place to place. In Uganda it's someone who wants to stone gay people. It's also the Lords Ristance Army which enslaves children to fight for them. In parts of the US it's a Klansman who used the bible to justify his belief. In central america they're proposing to increase the penalty for abortion to a minimum of 30 years. Then there's guys like brevik, the guys who attack the abortion clinics, the guys who say that the US should turn the middle east into glass.

All religion has it's crazies.

jackofalltrades

Grayson wrote: »

The average christian varies from place to place. In Uganda it's someone who wants to stone gay people. It's also the Lords Ristance Army which enslaves children to fight for them.
In parts of the US it's a Klansman who used the bible to justify his belief. In central america they're proposing to increase the penalty for abortion to a minimum of 30 years.
Then there's guys like brevik, the guys who attack the abortion clinics, the guys who say that the US should turn the middle east into glass.

All religion has it's crazies.

They're not average christian examples though, most of them would be extremists.