Car Incident. Need advice

Valetta

savagethegoat wrote: »

Oh god six pages of this to read...we've been here before so many times. OP you were in the incorrect lane.

The other car was entitled to use the right hand lane to go straight on as there were two lanes in and two out.

(if I missed something by not reading pages 3 to 6, I apologise)

What you've missed is the fact that the other car crossed over a lane to exit the roundabout without checking that the way was clear to do so.

The OP maintained their lane position so was not at fault.

Damien360

JustTheOne wrote: »

But the rules of the road state left hand lane for exits 1 and 2.

How was the op in the wrong lane?

You are being silly. There is no exit one. There is exit 2 and 3. OP was in wrong lane.

Didn't read all thread, just first and last page. It looks like beacon junction down to dundrum. M50 south is exit 2 and dundrum is exit 3. No reason whatsoever to think you can go all the way around on the outside lane.

odyssey06

JustTheOne wrote: »

But the rules of the road state left hand lane for exits 1 and 2.
How was the op in the wrong lane?

They don't really... good diagrams here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79077769&postcount=3

Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock):
Approach in the lefthand lane (unless road markings say otherwise) but do not indicate ‘left’ until you have passed the exit before the one
you intend to take. Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise for example a long line of traffic in left lane signalling left or road works in the left lane, you may follow the course shown by the broken red line.

The course shown by the broken red line is to go straight through the roundabout, taking the 2nd exit, from the right hand lane.
The other vehicle followed this course which is a legitimate maneuver according to the RSA.

The OP was...
Taking any later exits (those past 12 o’clock - Right)
Approach in the righthand lane (unless road markings say otherwise), indicate ‘right ‘on your approach and leave your indicator on until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Then change to the ‘left’ turn indicator.

Valetta

Damien360 wrote: »

You are being silly. There is no exit one. There is exit 2 and 3. OP was in wrong lane.

Didn't read all thread, just first and last page. It looks like beacon junction down to dundrum. M50 south is exit 2 and dundrum is exit 3. No reason whatsoever to think you can go all the way around on the outside lane.

Why do you think the outer lane continues past the exit?

Damien360

Valetta wrote: »

Why do you think the outer lane continues past the exit?

I am guessing you have never seen a 2 lane or three lane roundabout which is common on the M50. That layout in OP is very much like the smaller of those roundabouts.

Outside lane for all exits to 12 o'clock. Inside lane for 12 o'clock (as there are 2 lanes exiting) and 3 o'clock. Normal use dictates they change lane to outside lane after passing 12 o'clock. The outside one is not for going all the way around as you will hit the inside lane car if it is exiting at 12 o'clock. Common sense used.

Valetta

Damien360 wrote: »

I am guessing you have never seen a 2 lane or three lane roundabout which is common on the M50. That layout in OP is very much like the smaller of those roundabouts.

Outside lane for all exits to 12 o'clock. Inside lane for 12 o'clock (as there are 2 lanes exiting) and 3 o'clock. Normal use dictates they change lane to outside lane after passing 12 o'clock. The outside one is not for going all the way around as you will hit the inside lane car if it is exiting at 12 o'clock. Common sense used.

You haven't answered my question.

Damien360

Valetta wrote: »

You haven't answered my question.

First paragraph

Valetta

Damien360 wrote: »

First paragraph

That doesn't answer the question.

Why does the outside lane continue past the exit?

Damien360

Valetta wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question.

Why does the outside lane continue past the exit?

I am guessing you are the type of person the warnings on hairdryers in hotels were written for. There is no teaching someone who cannot learn.

Valetta

Damien360 wrote: »

I am guessing you are the type of person the warnings on hairdryers in hotels were written for. There is no teaching someone who cannot learn.

You're doing a lot of guessing, without answering the question.

nanook5

Valetta wrote: »

You're doing a lot of guessing, without answering the question.

It is possible for there to be 2 exits (or more) within the 12 O'clock view.

If you pass the first exit , you then indicate for the 2nd exit after you have passed the first, so to not make people think you are taking the first exit!

odyssey06

Both cars were crossing a broken line based on the diagram originally posted, changing lanes at the same time... OP has a broken line to their right, other vehicle has a broken line to their left.

The RSA guidelines stress that the purpose of roundabouts is smooth traffic flow. That would not be served by allowing a vehicle in the outside lane continue around a 2 lane roundabout, cutting off vehicles attempting to exit the roundabout.
It is served by allowing vehicles going straight through \ taking 12 o'clock exit to use both lanes on a 2 lane roundabout as long as they maintain their lanes. Otherwise on the assumption that most traffic is going left or straight, they are all converging on a single lane.

Road safety would also be served if the RSA would mandate signage on all 2 lane roundabouts to make clear what lanes are permissible (because some do and some don't have them), and also if the exits are 1 lane or 2 lane e.g. there are many local roundabouts where left hand land must turn left and cannot go straight through; or where there are 2 lanes on approach and only 1 exit lane at 12 o'clock.

TJJP

Lots here on right on wrong lane entering the roundabout. That's as maybe. Reality is likely to be that Blue crossed Red's (OPs) lane and is therefore at fault and is liable. Might not how many would like to see it, but ultimately that's how it's going to pan out here in Ireland. The '100% wrong' calls are misplaced. It might be wrong but ultimately the driver in lane has right of way. I'd be most surprised if it turns our otherwise.

Welruc

Op is not in the wrong. They are correct in using the left lane if they are planning on taking exit 1 or 2. Since the op maintained their lane position and was struck by another vehicle i would put the other vehicle at fault.

mickdw

TJJP wrote: »

Lots here on right on wrong lane entering the roundabout. That's as maybe. Reality is likely to be that Blue crossed Red's (OPs) lane and is therefore at fault and is liable. Might not how many would like to see it, but ultimately that's how it's going to pan out here in Ireland. The '100% wrong' calls are misplaced. It might be wrong but ultimately the driver in lane has right of way. I'd be most surprised if it turns our otherwise.

Might be how insurers like to share out the blame but the fact remains that the op used the roundabout incorrectly by attempting to drive right around the outside of the thing.

the_pen_turner

i would say op crossed into the blue lane and in to her car


what I think happened here is that the op didn't indicate (rightly for taking second exit) .blue car has moved up beside the op . blue car thinks you are indicating (or not bothering) left to use the exit that is in front of you and the same one she is going to take.
blue is probably indicating left but op cant see it because they are too close beside each other.
I would think that the op saw the blue car beside or at least should have. you should have been aware that it was there if you were paying attention.


I think op is 90% wrong. you can argue that the blue car crossed into the outside lane of the roundabout but it had to, to take the outside lane of the road. I would argue that the blue car was following the lines that went out onto the road.

the 10% is for assuming that the op was doing what everybody else would do. always assume that other drivers are stupid and dangerous.

Turtle_

deuceswild wrote: »

Op is not in the wrong. They are correct in using the left lane if they are planning on taking exit 1 or 2. Since the op maintained their lane position and was struck by another vehicle i would put the other vehicle at fault.

No. Just wrong. It's NOTHING to do with the number of the exit, and everything to do with the relative position of your intended exit to where you entered the roundabout.

The level of ignorance about how to use a flipping roundabout (a prolific feature of Irish roads) is astounding. If you are effectively turning right, keep right. If you're turning left, keep left. If you are going straight ahead and there's only one lane in the exit, keep left. For two lane exits, either lane is acceptable because the left lane should NEVER continue beyond straight ahead.

Atomic Pineapple

Two lanes into the roundabout, two lanes on the roundabout and two lanes off the roundabout means that the op is 100 percent at fault and is the one that was impeding the flow of traffic on the roundabout. Only thing the other drive can be accused of is not spotting the indicator of the op and taking defensive action but that's no recourse for the op.

TJJP

mickdw wrote: »

Might be how insurers like to share out the blame but the fact remains that the op used the roundabout incorrectly by attempting to drive right around the outside of the thing.

Again, that's a maybe, but at the time of impact (time of impact is the important issue here) other car crossed OPs lane. What went before will be seen as largely irrelevant. OP will come out in the clear for the precise incident, regardless of what went earlier or their licence or otherwise. Likely outcome remains that at the point of impact other driver was at fault and should not have been in that road position or should have taken evading action.

allthedoyles

it can depend on road markings approaching roundabout as you are allowed use left lane for 3rd exit depending on markings.

OP should go back there and take clear photographs outlining where he was at point of impact .

TJJP

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

Two lanes into the roundabout, two lanes on the roundabout and two lanes off the roundabout means that the op is 100 percent at fault and is the one that was impeding the flow of traffic on the roundabout. Only thing the other drive can be accused of is not spotting the indicator of the op and taking defensive action but that's no recourse for the op.

Sadly, perhaps not for the OP, that's not how this will pan out. Other driver will be seen to have crossed OPs lane and will be found at fault. When changing lane, proceed only when lane is clear and it's safe to do so.

mickdw

Turtle_ wrote: »

. If you are effectively turning right, keep right. If you're turning left, keep left. If you are going straight ahead and there's only one lane in the exit, keep left. For two lane exits, either lane is acceptable because the left lane should NEVER continue beyond straight ahead.

This should be compulsory learning for new drivers. Very clear and simple description. All I would add is that direction arrows where provided should be obeyed.

TJJP

mickdw wrote: »

This should be compulsory learning for new drivers. Very clear and simple description. All I would add is that direction arrows where provided should be obeyed.

Should also be written into road traffic law. Regrettably like much of our proper or best road practice it isn't codified, as a result '100%' statements don't apply or indeed have any bearing on the situation when opining on the OPs original question. OP wasn't right (far from it) but in the eyes of the law, such as it is, he/she won't be found to be 100% in the wrong.

Jesus.

TheChizler wrote: »

That's not usually the case at all. The general rule is left lane for first and second exit, unless markings specify otherwise. While that's clear on a normal roundabout with exits at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock, here it's not so clear as there is no 9 o'clock exit. Going by that rule the OP would have been correct when they came on to the roundabout, as they were taking the second exit. The markings however later indicate that the left lane exits at exit 1, which goes against the convention of a standard roundabout, and it's a little unfair as you couldn't know this without local knowledge. While the above is the general rule of thumb, there is only one law regarding roundabouts, that you go clockwise basically. Otherwise they're just very curved roads. So technically you can go from whatever lane you want to whatever exit you want, provided you change lanes safely and don't cut into other people's lanes.It's an awkward one, and understandably confusing. The only clear cut thing to take from this is to always indicate your intention and change lanes carefully.

I've no idea what any of that means only that its completely wrong!

TheChizler

Jesus. wrote: »

I've no idea what any of that means only that its completely wrong!

As in the above post I don't see how you can say it's completely wrong. Best practice for roundabouts is completely uncoded when it comes to the law, and in the absence of markings it comes down to people's experience and subjectivity in applying conventions. As seen in this thread some people go by the clock face guideline and some go by the exit number guideline, and both have their place. The only thing that is agreed is that you shouldn't cross lanes without checking there isn't someone there first. Which unfortunately is what both drivers did.

Seriously, what do you people suggest the car in the right hand lane do? Stop dead in the middle of the roundabout because some eejit to their left can't drive properly?
They would assume, and rightly so, that anyone in the left hand lane is going straight on.
That's where they should be going!
The car in the other lane is completely right.
How can ye not understand that?

savagethegoat

left lane if turning left or going straight on...right lane if going right or (if there are 2 lanes in/out) straight on.

OP wasn't going left or straight on....OP was going right...should have been in right hand lane.

There's nothing to say the other car came out of the same entrance as the OP, he doesn't know....the other car may well have come from the previous entrance , in which case it was perfectly correct.

theteal

bubblypop wrote: »

Seriously, what do you people suggest the car in the right hand lane do? Stop dead in the middle of the roundabout because some eejit to their left can't drive properly?
They would assume, and rightly so, that anyone in the left hand lane is going straight on.
That's where they should be going!
The car in the other lane is completely right.
How can ye not understand that?

The only thing you should assume when driving is that other people are idiots and are about to make a mistake. The OPs bump buddy did not look when exiting the roundabout. Granted I agree that the OP should not have been there but it's not like he/she was invisible. Had the other person looked, yes she could have slowed/stopped (although not advised) or she could have made a judgement call like, "look at that eejit in the wrong lane! At least it's just a roundabout, I'll just do a lap and exit the next go around"

savagethegoat

how can you tell they are in the wrong lane before the moment when they fail to turn off and slam into you a second later?

theteal

I don't understand. Only one person slammed into the other in this instance and it wasn't the person in the incorrect lane.