Stade Francais vs Munster, Sat 9th January 4:45 Irish time; Sky Sports

Riskymove

Jamie Heaslip

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Agree the players havent regressed, but think they just werent that good to begin with.

The standard of player has, despite some ups and downs, been slipping over the last 3-4 years.

Munster are now really feeling the impact of the whole change in rugby culture in Ireland since professionalism. Particularly the decline of the Irish League. It was the bedrock of the Munster players and most players played weekly against the top players in other clubs. Munster teams dominated the league for a period.

I really think this is impacting on the development of younger players and in attracting players outside the traditional schools.

Bazzo

Riskymove wrote: »

everyone misses some kicks

the real issue is the number of fairly straightforward kicks he has missed in recent games

I don't think any other pro12 starting kicker would have missed all of them. One might have been forgivable but 4 or 5 is a real issue

I understand that nobody has perfect kicking stats but I was directly responding to jaco saying that Keatley is 3rd in the league which I don't think can be right. Also the times where Munster have gone to the corner because of lack of faith in his kicking need to be considered, and that's before taking kicks out on the full and missing touch in to consideration.

I sound like I'm ragging on him I know but I really do wish him all the best, I just don't think he's up to it at this moment in time. Hopefully he finds a great stretch of form and proves me wrong.

Riskymove

Jamie Heaslip

Bazzo wrote: »

I understand that nobody has perfect kicking stats but I was directly responding to jaco saying that Keatley is 3rd in the league which I don't think can be right.

he is 3rd in the league but he has played most games in Pro12 including the first run where we won most of them

Most of the top teams had their first choice kicker unavailable from world cup etc. The Treviso kicker (a full back) is ahead of him for example

it is not like he misses every kick

Buer

The stats that Jaco is referring to must be the fact that IK is the 3rd top scorer in the league and the 2nd in terms of successful pens/conversions. That's on the stats page. It doesn't account for misses at all. You could be top of that list and miss 50% of your kicks. It's all based on volume.

Golden boot is much more relevant where he's not in the top 5 (only list the top 5).

awec

Buer wrote: »

I think he doesn't have the mental resolve of someone like Sexton or O'Gara. They're born competitors and winners and relish that challenge. Keatley isn't at that level although I do think some of the criticism he has endured in the past couple of months is over the top. He is capable of great games. He was excellent in the knock out stages of the HEC under Penney and has put together periods of form worthy of consideration for the green jersey.

People might remember his game away to Clermont where he was arguably Munster's best player. He has the ability but I think the level of criticism that has been directed at him has really shaken him. Not to open the can of worms but I think that jeering incident along with how poorly it was handled by drawing further attention to it was the point of no return.

I don't think there's anyone in the set up, currently, capable of being the player they need. Scannell might be worth a few runs at 10 before the end of the season to see how he pans out.

Neither Sexton nor O'Gara have had to play in teams as bad as the current Munster team though.

It's hard to know how O'Gara would play if his pack was effectively playing in full reverse.

It's also hard to know how Sexton would play if his outside backs were pretty much rubbish.

Keatley is not good enough but Munster are carrying average players in more positions than one.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

The stats that Jaco is referring to must be the fact that IK is the 3rd top scorer in the league and the 2nd in terms of successful pens/conversions. That's on the stats page. It doesn't account for misses at all. You could be top of that list and miss 50% of your kicks. It's all based on volume.

Golden boot is much more relevant where he's not in the top 5 (only list the top 5).

That makes more sense, thanks.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Neither Sexton nor O'Gara have had to play in teams as bad as the current Munster team though.

It's hard to know how O'Gara would play if his pack was effectively playing in full reverse.

It's also hard to know how Sexton would play if his outside backs were pretty much rubbish.

Keatley is not good enough but Munster are carrying average players in more positions than one.

Don't disagree with any of that. I like the guy. He's a decent player (all be it not one that will ever lead a team to Euro success) and has been dished out a huge amount of crap in the last couple of months by people who were calling for him to be in the Irish 23 this time last year. He'll come good again but I'm not sure he will do so in Ireland.

As for ROG/Sexton, I think they'd look lesser players in this current side but I also think they'd shake off a bad game a lot more quickly and revert back to business as usual. IK has just fallen apart in elements that are his sole remit i.e. goal kicking, tackling, restarts etc.

case885

awec wrote:

It's hard to know how O'Gara would play if his pack was effectively playing in full reverse.

The pack has been doing quite well but I'm sure O'Gara has played for Ireland when the pack was second best. Keatley definitely isn't the required level we need starting in Europe.

shuffol

Buer wrote: »

I think he doesn't have the mental resolve of someone like Sexton or O'Gara. They're born competitors and winners and relish that challenge. Keatley isn't at that level although I do think some of the criticism he has endured in the past couple of months is over the top. He is capable of great games. He was excellent in the knock out stages of the HEC under Penney and has put together periods of form worthy of consideration for the green jersey.

People might remember his game away to Clermont where he was arguably Munster's best player. He has the ability but I think the level of criticism that has been directed at him has really shaken him. Not to open the can of worms but I think that jeering incident along with how poorly it was handled by drawing further attention to it was the point of no return.

I don't think there's anyone in the set up, currently, capable of being the player they need. Scannell might be worth a few runs at 10 before the end of the season to see how he pans out.

I agree on Keatley which is why I think Madigan would've been a better option if he was interested in moving, he's far more self assured and able to recover from bad errors or poor performances, many times he has had bad games for Leinster but still able to produce some quality at a crucial moment.

I also think Hanrahan looked a more naturally confident player too in the performances I'd seen from him, a trick was missed not trying Keatley at 12 outside him where he's under less pressure.

This has been an ongoing issue with Keatley for a few seasons now and Foley should have been better at recognising it sooner and given Hanrahan more time at 10.

jacothelad

former total wrote: »

The stat about success rate would also appear to be wrong.
http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/rhino_golden_boot.php

Keatley has missed more penalties than anyone else in the HC this year so that's one stat he can claim.

But I've huge sympathy for Keatley too. He's not up to the level that is required, but it's not his fault he's been thrust into this position. Nor is it his fault the players outside him are a bit duff.

The problems go way beyond Keatley and his kicking.

Stats in my post refer to the league only. Stats aren't everything as was pointed out and don't tell the whole story. However they do also give a good indication of a players over all contribution.

jacothelad

Akrasia wrote: »

Where did you get the stats on kicking percentages?
I was looking for those recently and couldn't find any

On the stats section of the Guinness Pro12 site.

Buer

shuffol wrote: »

I agree on Keatley which is why I think Madigan would've been a better option if he was interested in moving, he's far more self assured and able to recover from bad errors or poor performances, many times he has had bad games for Leinster but still able to produce some quality at a crucial moment.

Those who were turning their nose up at Madigan were deluded. I'm not even his greatest fan but he's a top quality goal kicker and can cover multiple positions. He has started a number of European games at full back which is a position where Munster are also struggling.

Stick him in the team and let him kick the goals. If nothing else, it will keep Munster in touch and put them in a position where they might be able to win a game. It would have been 10-6 at half time on Saturday if he had been playing. That penalty miss on the stroke of halftime was a significant psychological moment.

Bazzo

jacothelad wrote: »

Stats in my post refer to the league only. Stats aren't everything as was pointed out and don't tell the whole story. However they do also give a good indication of a players over all contribution.

But his % kicked stats aren't good, so in this case they really only show us how good his team are at winning penalties from kickable positions, rather than how good Keatley is at converting chances.

dubal

Bazzo wrote: »

But his % kicked stats aren't good, so in this case they really only show us how good his team are at winning penalties from kickable positions, rather than how good Keatley is at converting chances.

Also, if Madigan was kicking he would take on more kicks that would be turned down by a less confident kicker. That will never appear on stats.

Dubal

Bellview

Buer wrote: »

Those who were turning their nose up at Madigan were deluded. I'm not even his greatest fan but he's a top quality goal kicker and can cover multiple positions. He has started a number of European games at full back which is a position where Munster are also struggling.

Stick him in the team and let him kick the goals. If nothing else, it will keep Munster in touch and put them in a position where they might be able to win a game. It would have been 10-6 at half time on Saturday if he had been playing. That penalty miss on the stroke of halftime was a significant psychological moment.

leaving JJ slip through our fingers is the one that hurts most. He came through the ranks and should have been used as a poster child for the development program keatley is taking a lot of heat which is hard on him now. in last years six nations he was at one stage seen as best option to jonny

former total

Jamie Heaslip

Bellview wrote: »

leaving JJ slip through our fingers is the one that hurts most. He came through the ranks and should have been used as a poster child for the development program keatley is taking a lot of heat which is hard on him now. in last years six nations he was at one stage seen as best option to jonny

Eh?

JJ has a long way to go before his departure can be viewed in any sort of proper context. Certainly I haven't seen too much that tells me he'd be what Munster need right now.

phog

WTV's blog of the game

RuggieBear

posts deleted
Folks, personal lives of the players is out of bounds

former total

Jamie Heaslip

15-week ban for Raisuqe (21 weeks reduced by 6 for good conduct and clean record).

Fair enough really.

thomond2006

I agree it's a fair enough ban considering other bans for gouging but a 6 week reduction for good conduct, clean record etc is really ridiculous. Why can't it be a week or two added on for an unclean record?!

http://www.epcrugby.com/news/32195.php#.VpaBSfkrJpg

Reading the ruling, the reduction takes into account 'youth and inexperience'. Do you need to be experienced to know you can't put your fingers in someone's eyes?!

Journeyman_1

That 6 weeks is actually significant as it means he will be available for the end of the season. Without the reduction its the end of May/June.

I wonder what, if any, punishment clubs give a player in this situation. He has effectively made a massive mistake that now means he can't work for them. 25% of his yearly salary is likely significant amount of money.

flutered

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think he's lost the dressing room in the sense that the players are in open revolt like with Mourinho.

I think that (a) he doesn't have the players that he needs, (b) the main leaders of the team such as POM and Ryan are missing and (c) the coaching squad is missing a backs coach and a good defensive coach.

Basic stuff like protecting the ball after the tackle, making the first up tackles, making the second up tackles after the first one is missed :rolleyes:, timing of runs so that passes don't have to go forward to be completed, support runners when a break is made or a defender beaten (it does happen, don't look so surprised) and knowing what an overlap is and how to exploit it.

when foly was assisant to kidney in the irish set up, the last year ireland kept a clean sheet until the away italian game, when by then some players did not give a xxxxxxxxxxx, when looking back on both ireland and munster, poc was always first to the breakdown, mostly unsupported, now both have no one to arrive until its too late

flutered

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think he's lost the dressing room in the sense that the players are in open revolt like with Mourinho.

I think that (a) he doesn't have the players that he needs, (b) the main leaders of the team such as POM and Ryan are missing and (c) the coaching squad is missing a backs coach and a good defensive coach.

Basic stuff like protecting the ball after the tackle, making the first up tackles, making the second up tackles after the first one is missed :rolleyes:, timing of runs so that passes don't have to go forward to be completed, support runners when a break is made or a defender beaten (it does happen, don't look so surprised) and knowing what an overlap is and how to exploit it.

when foly was assisant to kidney in the irish set up, the last year ireland kept a clean sheet until the away italian game, when by then some players did not give a xxxxxxxxxxx, when looking back on both ireland and munster, poc was always first to the breakdown, mostly unsupported, now both have no one to arrive until its too late, the incident involving stander last week, go back a few years it would have been a different incident, for a start oconnell and doc would have got involved, perhaps the french guy would not have even tryed that on, as the conciquences would have been too painfull, heck we do not even have an enforcer, if doc had been there he would have been all over that guy, look back to the great days in thomond, what was the turning points in most matches, well it was not lying down and having the opposition piss all over them

lazybones32

thomond2006 wrote: »

I agree it's a fair enough ban considering other bans for gouging but a 6 week reduction for good conduct, clean record etc is really ridiculous. Why can't it be a week or two added on for an unclean record?!

http://www.epcrugby.com/news/32195.php#.VpaBSfkrJpg

Reading the ruling, the reduction takes into account 'youth and inexperience'. Do you need to be experienced to know you can't put your fingers in someone's eyes?!

His good conduct is properly cited as his "good conduct at the hearing". It must be hard to sit silently and speak when spoken to.

An appeal will remove the lion's share of that ruling anyway...

stadedublinois

lazybones32 wrote: »

His good conduct is properly cited as his "good conduct at the hearing". It must be hard to sit silently and speak when spoken to.

An appeal will remove the lion's share of that ruling anyway...

Why? Good conduct at the hearing is cited in nearly every ruling as a reason reduce the sanction (not that I think it should)

Blackclaret

I reckon fifteen weeks is a bit harsh, its not like he sneakily dug his nails in while in a ruck, it was more a stupid rush of impetulance. In full view of all by the touchline , TMO and TV viewers. But deserves six weeks , anyways for being asshole ,I guess.

Del.Monte

Jamie Heaslip

Blackclaret wrote: »

I reckon fifteen weeks is a bit harsh, its not like he sneakily dug his nails in while in a ruck, it was more a stupid rush of impetulance. In full view of all by the touchline , TMO and TV viewers. But deserves six weeks , anyways for being asshole ,I guess.

He fully deserved what he got and I'd go a lot further if I was running the show.

The Lost Sheep

Blackclaret wrote: »

I reckon fifteen weeks is a bit harsh, its not like he sneakily dug his nails in while in a ruck, it was more a stupid rush of impetulance. In full view of all by the touchline, TMO and TV viewers. But deserves six weeks, anyways for being asshole, I guess.

15 weeks isn't harsh at all considering he got 21 originally and it was reduced to 15 weeks. It was stupid, idiotic and in full view of side-line as you say. How is 15 weeks harsh? He had the ball, moved his hand across opponents face and moved into eye area. That is more than stupid rush of impetulance