Stade Francais vs Munster, Sat 9th January 4:45 Irish time; Sky Sports

Interested Observer

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It was marginally forward, but I don't think any allowance was given for the momentum of the ball before being passed. We've seen passes like that allowed in the past.

I'd agree on Murray's try but the TV pictures never clearly showed Scannell's left foot in touch. It was implied certainly but never actually shown. His right foot was off the ground.

Looked to me like he straight up threw it forward. It never started off backwards, the hands didn't go backwards.

CMOTDibbler

Interested Observer wrote: »

Looked to me like he straight up threw it forward. It never started off backwards, the hands didn't go backwards.

I'd have to see it again, but my impression in real time was that the hands were at worst flat. A lot of the replays were from a wide shot which made it harder to read.

The Rape of Lucretia

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd have to see it again, but my impression in real time was that the hands were at worst flat. A lot of the replays were from a wide shot which made it harder to read.

Its impossible to say categorically. Certainly the ball went forward. Whether the hands direction, or relative motion make the pass flat or backwards is so fine a call that you cannot fault the officials for deciding either way.

molloyjh

Interested Observer wrote: »

Looked to me like he straight up threw it forward. It never started off backwards, the hands didn't go backwards.

Yeah this. It only ever went forward.

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its impossible to say categorically. Certainly the ball went forward. Whether the hands direction, or relative motion make the pass flat or backwards is so fine a call that you cannot fault the officials for deciding either way.

I'm not faulting the officials at all. They made a call and it was probably the right one, but as I said, I've seen more forward looking passes given.

It wasn't the winning or losing of the match for Munster. That was down to what Stander alluded to afterwards as guys not putting their bodies on the line. 27 missed tackles and 16 turnovers says it all really.

flutered

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm not faulting the officials at all. They made a call and it was probably the right one, but as I said, I've seen more forward looking passes given.

It wasn't the winning or losing of the match for Munster. That was down to what Stander alluded to afterwards as guys not putting their bodies on the line. 27 missed tackles and 16 turnovers says it all really.

excuse a post from a pidgeon, but unless a ruthless streak is shown by management, this club is going to end up in oblivion, how many players earned their wages yesterday, never mind all season, i.m.o. foley has lost the dressing room, like munrino and van gal in another sport this year

CMOTDibbler

flutered wrote: »

excuse a post from a pidgeon, but unless a ruthless streak is shown by management, this club is going to end up in oblivion, how many players earned their wages yesterday, never mind all season, i.m.o. foley has lost the dressing room, like munrino and van gal in another sport this year

I don't think he's lost the dressing room in the sense that the players are in open revolt like with Mourinho.

I think that (a) he doesn't have the players that he needs, (b) the main leaders of the team such as POM and Ryan are missing and (c) the coaching squad is missing a backs coach and a good defensive coach.

Basic stuff like protecting the ball after the tackle, making the first up tackles, making the second up tackles after the first one is missed :rolleyes:, timing of runs so that passes don't have to go forward to be completed, support runners when a break is made or a defender beaten (it does happen, don't look so surprised) and knowing what an overlap is and how to exploit it.

lazybones32

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm not faulting the officials at all. They made a call and it was probably the right one, but as I said, I've seen more forward looking passes given.

It wasn't the winning or losing of the match for Munster. That was down to what Stander alluded to afterwards as guys not putting their bodies on the line. 27 missed tackles and 16 turnovers says it all really.

It was painful to hear CJ say "we didn't put our bodies on the line". The one man who cannot be accused of not putting his body on the line, taking the responsibility for the others.
I think he needs to be rested next week. He's done so much work over the last few months and must be cared for, even if he wants to play.

damemcd

Ulster being beaten by low flying birds Oyonnax.......dismal all round

damemcd

Ulster 16-0 down

former total

Jamie Heaslip

damemcd wrote: »

Ulster

Maybe try not to post scores in unrelated threads, people might be trying to avoid the result.

aimee1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think he's lost the dressing room in the sense that the players are in open revolt like with Mourinho.

I think that (a) he doesn't have the players that he needs, (b) the main leaders of the team such as POM and Ryan are missing and (c) the coaching squad is missing a backs coach and a good defensive coach.

Basic stuff like protecting the ball after the tackle, making the first up tackles, making the second up tackles after the first one is missed :rolleyes:, timing of runs so that passes don't have to go forward to be completed, support runners when a break is made or a defender beaten (it does happen, don't look so surprised) and knowing what an overlap is and how to exploit it.

That was the most disappointing aspect if the game. The basics and simple organisation just wasnt there. I think Foley is slightly out of his depth and working with a group of players not in the same class as the teams he captained. He simply isnt getting them to play to the best of their ability both collectively and individually.

Leinster took a chance on Leo, regardless of who did apply, they took a punt. No matter who the opposition are Leo seems to keep himself on an even keel. Whether its Dragons, Toulon, Treviso its the same "they are a good team, we need to play well to win". After the game he seems to have the same demeanour no matter the outcome, very boring and bland

I think that feed into the players minds too. Foley has been far too emotional so I wonder does he have the ruthless edge as coach? I am not saying that to be critical but maybe he carries too much of his emotional baggage as a player with Munster into the coaching. Maybe he needed an outside voice to tell him XYZ is wrong

Regardless of the players ability, rugby by its nature is a game that good fundamentals and good execution can enable a team to be competitive/win against teams of higher ability.

Akrasia

Jamie Heaslip

aimee1 wrote: »

That was the most disappointing aspect if the game. The basics and simple organisation just wasnt there. I think Foley is slightly out of his depth and working with a group of players not in the same class as the teams he captained. He simply isnt getting them to play to the best of their ability both collectively and individually.

Leinster took a chance on Leo, regardless of who did apply, they took a punt. No matter who the opposition are Leo seems to keep himself on an even keel. Whether its Dragons, Toulon, Treviso its the same "they are a good team, we need to play well to win". After the game he seems to have the same demeanour no matter the outcome, very boring and bland

I think that feed into the players minds too. Foley has been far too emotional so I wonder does he have the ruthless edge as coach? I am not saying that to be critical but maybe he carries too much of his emotional baggage as a player with Munster into the coaching. Maybe he needed an outside voice to tell him XYZ is wrong

Regardless of the players ability, rugby by its nature is a game that good fundamentals and good execution can enable a team to be competitive/win against teams of higher ability.

The history of Irish rugby is littered with heroic defeats. The fans are very forgiving of an under strength team as long as they give It their best shot. The munster team this season are not losing because they're bad players, they're losing because they're disorganised and bottling way too many opportunities in every game.

We used to have solid fundamentals. Now we're being bullied in the scrum, losing our own lineout, butchering restarts, butchering penalties, not knowing when to commit to the breakdown or when to go wide. Even our fielding Is suffering, and that's something we used to be able to rely on.

At the start of the season I looked at our squad and thought that we had a good team. Now I look at almost the same names and think we're in massive trouble.

Those players didn't regress for no reason. There's something really wrong with the coaching setup

The Rape of Lucretia

Akrasia wrote: »

At the start of the season I looked at our squad and thought that we had a good team. Now I look at almost the same names and think we're in massive trouble.

Those players didn't regress for no reason. There's something really wrong with the coaching setup

Agree the players havent regressed, but think they just werent that good to begin with.

The standard of player has, despite some ups and downs, been slipping over the last 3-4 years. Paulie put a gloss on things and pulled things along in a few big performances. O'Mahoney is a big loss, which cannot not hurt given the low level generally. The outhalf issue has been a big problem since ROG quit and also poorly managed. No really strong prospect has come through the development system since Zebo, and he now is looking increasing like a false hope.
To make the point, and not to engage in provincial bickering, compare with the numbers and quality players that have come through for Leinster and Ulster (and Connacht even), in the same period. With the retirements of the great team of the noughties, Munster needed a big raft of replacements. They have gotten little or none.
Instead, the level has been eroding. This has happened under two coaches (not that they are to blame really for that aspect). The coach change has already happened. But the slide in squad level has continued and given Foley an impossible task.
He may well be no great shakes, and a replacement can bring some renewed optimism, but it will not tackle the fundamental problem. Munster is neck and neck with Connacht in the Pro 12. Thats about right. Munster may be slightly underperforming, Con overperforming, but there isnt much in the level of their squads. Certainly not the gulf in talent that we are used to seeing. But dont blame Foley for that.

(Munster went 2rd,3rd,6th,3rd going back in the league. Not great. 5th at the moment. Same ball park, and below what they were achieving before that. The current EC trauma is only highlighting this trend for those who needed a 'Lens' moment to appreciate the slide).

kuang1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Agree the players havent regressed, but think they just werent that good to begin with.

The standard of player has, despite some ups and downs, been slipping over the last 3-4 years...
...Munster may be slightly underperforming, Con overperforming, but there isnt much in the level of their squads. Certainly not the gulf in talent that we are used to seeing. But dont blame Foley for that.

(Munster went 2rd,3rd,6th,3rd going back in the league. Not great. 5th at the moment. Same ball park, and below what they were achieving before that. The current EC trauma is only highlighting this trend for those who needed a 'Lens' moment to appreciate the slide).

I'm not sure anybody on here has claimed Munster to have a squad full of superstars. I certainly haven't been under any illusion about that.

But absolutely YES Foley et al CAN be blamed for us performing like a team that's gonna be lucky to make top 6 in the pro12, as opposed to a comfortable top 4 finish. (Which is definitely what this squad should be achieving with proper leadership.)

The Rape of Lucretia

kuang1 wrote: »

I'm not sure anybody on here has claimed Munster to have a squad full of superstars.

You're probably right. So why do you raise the point that somebody might have ?

kuang1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You're probably right. So why do you raise the point that somebody might have ?

The context of what I said was qualified by the rest of my post.
i.e. that imo even though our squad may be quite average in terms of raw talent, they should be significantly performing better than the current level.

I know we don't agree on this and I'm not necessarily out to change your mind, but the present management are not optimising the output from the squad. Not even close.

You are more of the opinion that if Foley had better players we would all see how good a manager he is. (Don't mean to be putting words in your mouth but I gather that that's the gist of it).
You may be right. I may be right. It's unprovable either way.

The Rape of Lucretia

kuang1 wrote: »

The context of what I said was qualified by the rest of my post.
i.e. that imo even though our squad may be quite average in terms of raw talent, they should be significantly performing better than the current level.

I know we don't agree on this and I'm not necessarily out to change your mind, but the present management are not optimising the output from the squad. Not even close.

You are more of the opinion that if Foley had better players we would all see how good a manager he is. (Don't mean to be putting words in your mouth but I gather that that's the gist of it).
You may be right. I may be right. It's unprovable either way.

You are fair in that that is the gist of it.
I feel that Munster will be in for quite a few more years of stagnation or problems if coach changing is the main change expected to reverse fortunes.

I come back to my point of comparing the level of player that has come through in Leinster and Ulster in the last 3-4 years and the little if nothing that has come for Munster. This cannot but lower the standard of raw material available to whatever coach. Munster is 5th in the league, and, with hardly any players being lost during the 6N period, making the Pro 12 playoffs is quite reasonable. To me, that would be quite an acceptable performance from Foley. He doesnt have EC, league topping guarantee, or a pro 12 winning squad in his hands.

I would be in favour of a 'Toika' style bailout from the IRFU for the good of Munster and Irish rugby. They should 'influence' a few players to move from other provinces for particular positions where Munster is week, Leinster/Ulster realtively strong in depth, permit 'special case' breaking of money or foreign imports, and some 'debt forgiveness' or refinancing on Thomond if that really is a harmful financial millstone. Nucifora and having ultimate decision on any player elements though rather than Munster, Troika style.
The sooner the better.

Bazzo

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You are fair in that that is the gist of it.
I feel that Munster will be in for quite a few more years of stagnation or problems if coach changing is the main change expected to reverse fortunes.

I come back to my point of comparing the level of player that has come through in Leinster and Ulster in the last 3-4 years and the little if nothing that has come for Munster. This cannot but lower the standard of raw material available to whatever coach. Munster is 5th in the league, and, with hardly any players being lost during the 6N period, making the Pro 12 playoffs is quite reasonable. To me, that would be quite an acceptable performance from Foley. He doesnt have EC, league topping guarantee, or a pro 12 winning squad in his hands.

I would be in favour of a 'Toika' style bailout from the IRFU for the good of Munster and Irish rugby. They should 'influence' a few players to move from other provinces for particular positions where Munster is week, Leinster/Ulster realtively strong in depth, permit 'special case' breaking of money or foreign imports, and some 'debt forgiveness' or refinancing on Thomond if that really is a harmful financial millstone. Nucifora and having ultimate decision on any player elements though rather than Munster, Troika style.
The sooner the better.

This will never happen. The other provinces would have apoplexy.

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You are fair in that that is the gist of it.
I feel that Munster will be in for quite a few more years of stagnation or problems if coach changing is the main change expected to reverse fortunes.

I come back to my point of comparing the level of player that has come through in Leinster and Ulster in the last 3-4 years and the little if nothing that has come for Munster. This cannot but lower the standard of raw material available to whatever coach. Munster is 5th in the league, and, with hardly any players being lost during the 6N period, making the Pro 12 playoffs is quite reasonable. To me, that would be quite an acceptable performance from Foley. He doesnt have EC, league topping guarantee, or a pro 12 winning squad in his hands.

I would be in favour of a 'Toika' style bailout from the IRFU for the good of Munster and Irish rugby. They should 'influence' a few players to move from other provinces for particular positions where Munster is week, Leinster/Ulster realtively strong in depth, permit 'special case' breaking of money or foreign imports, and some 'debt forgiveness' or refinancing on Thomond if that really is a harmful financial millstone. Nucifora and having ultimate decision on any player elements though rather than Munster, Troika style.
The sooner the better.

Even the Troika had to be repaid. There were no handouts.

jacothelad

Quint2010 wrote: »

He just said Munsters performance was borderline disgraceful

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

"Embarrassing, disgraceful, humiliating. No spirit, no heart, no passion, no structure, no shape."

Quinny not happy at all.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Seriously disillusioned with the management team.

Don't know what is going on. The players are playing well below par.

Keatley, Saili, Zebo, Earls, Copeland, Kilcoyne, Ryan, Foley, Chisholm were hopeless.

Stander, Murray and Scannell played well considering what was going on around them.

There is something rotten at Munster. They players are not as motivated to play for this management team.

People here laugh and make a joke about "Pashun" and all that but we were a team that showed passion and pride in the jersey.

There was none of that on show tonight. Guys quit out there. Worst I have ever seen Munster.

People laugh about it because you think it's a characteristic special to Munster and trot it out at the drop of a hat. News flash. Every team has it. No more and no less than Munster. That's why it comes across as a bit of a cliché.

One thing is certain, the players came off the field battered and bruised. Too many unpleasant barbs and jibes are thrown at them as if it doesn't matter. It does. They didn't go out there to fail and didn't go out there and stand about scratching their family jewels. It's a team being remade. No Irish team can go out and buy their way out of a slump. It has to be out grown. For what it's worth and for those who would hang, draw and quarter him, Keatley is the second top scorer in the league and has the 3rd best kicking stats.

aimee1

jacothelad wrote: »

For what it's worth and for those who would hang, draw and quarter him, Keatley is the second top scorer in the league and has the 3rd best kicking stats.

The stats are the just that. They dont give indications to what kicks he missed and the impact of them.

molloyjh

jacothelad wrote: »

People laugh about it because you think it's a characteristic special to Munster and trot it out at the drop of a hat. News flash. Every team has it. No more and no less than Munster. That's why it comes across as a bit of a cliché.

A bit? It's almost comical at this stage. It isn't some magical quality that makes players better and is therefore obviously missing when they lose. You can be as passionate (sorry, pashunate) as you like and still lose. Skills, coordination, game plan, accuracy and clarity are all far more relevant.

former total

Jamie Heaslip

aimee1 wrote: »

The stats are the just that. They dont give indications to what kicks he missed and the impact of them.

The stat about success rate would also appear to be wrong.
http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/rhino_golden_boot.php

Keatley has missed more penalties than anyone else in the HC this year so that's one stat he can claim.

But I've huge sympathy for Keatley too. He's not up to the level that is required, but it's not his fault he's been thrust into this position. Nor is it his fault the players outside him are a bit duff.

The problems go way beyond Keatley and his kicking.

Bazzo

jacothelad wrote: »

For what it's worth and for those who would hang, draw and quarter him, Keatley is the second top scorer in the league and has the 3rd best kicking stats.

former total wrote: »

The stat about success rate would also appear to be wrong.
http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/rhino_golden_boot.php

Keatley has missed more penalties than anyone else in the HC this year so that's one stat he can claim.

But I've huge sympathy for Keatley too. He's not up to the level that is required, but it's not his fault he's been thrust into this position. Nor is it his fault the players outside him are a bit duff.

The problems go way beyond Keatley and his kicking.

Yeah I'd really have to see them stats to believe it Jaco, I've caught the majority of games this year and he misses a lot of kicks. As Former Total pointed out, he's not even in the top 5 in the pro 12, I can't see his European stats bringing him up to top 3.

I certainly don't have anything personal against him, and it doesn't really affect me at the end of the day anyway as I'm not a Munster supporter(except I like to see all of the provinces doing well) but I don't think he's up to it at the moment. Maybe if the kicking duties were taken off his shoulders then he'd improve, but his kicking from hand can be pretty diabolical at times as well, so maybe not. Moving him to centre could be a solution. Either way, I think Munster need to get themselves a new out half.

Buer

I think he doesn't have the mental resolve of someone like Sexton or O'Gara. They're born competitors and winners and relish that challenge. Keatley isn't at that level although I do think some of the criticism he has endured in the past couple of months is over the top. He is capable of great games. He was excellent in the knock out stages of the HEC under Penney and has put together periods of form worthy of consideration for the green jersey.

People might remember his game away to Clermont where he was arguably Munster's best player. He has the ability but I think the level of criticism that has been directed at him has really shaken him. Not to open the can of worms but I think that jeering incident along with how poorly it was handled by drawing further attention to it was the point of no return.

I don't think there's anyone in the set up, currently, capable of being the player they need. Scannell might be worth a few runs at 10 before the end of the season to see how he pans out.

Riskymove

Jamie Heaslip

Bazzo wrote: »

Yeah I'd really have to see them stats to believe it Jaco, I've caught the majority of games this year and he misses a lot of kicks. As Former Total pointed out, he's not even in the top 5 in the pro 12, I can't see his European stats bringing him up to top 3.

everyone misses some kicks

the real issue is the number of fairly straightforward kicks he has missed in recent games

I don't think any other pro12 starting kicker would have missed all of them. One might have been forgivable but 4 or 5 is a real issue

Riskymove

Jamie Heaslip

Buer wrote: »

People might remember his game away to Clermont where he was arguably Munster's best player. He has the ability but I think the level of criticism that has been directed at him has really shaken him. Not to open the can of worms but I think that jeering incident along with how poorly it was handled by drawing further attention to it was the point of no return.

the problem has certainly been a lack of consistency...sure he was man of the match against Ulster....in between very poor games against Leinster and Stade

Akrasia

Jamie Heaslip

jacothelad wrote: »

Keatley is the second top scorer in the league and has the 3rd best kicking stats.

Where did you get the stats on kicking percentages?
I was looking for those recently and couldn't find any

Akrasia

Jamie Heaslip

Riskymove wrote: »

everyone misses some kicks

the real issue is the number of fairly straightforward kicks he has missed in recent games

I don't think any other pro12 starting kicker would have missed all of them. One might have been forgivable but 4 or 5 is a real issue

And we have also refused plenty of kicking opportunities due to lack of confidence in keatley. Without putting points on the scoreboard you won't win games