Stade Francais vs Munster, Sat 9th January 4:45 Irish time; Sky Sports

Hagz

I thought Zebo had quite a good game against Leinster personally. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'd be inclined to do away with this Conway at 15 business and permanently move Zebo there.

The Rape of Lucretia

Hagz wrote: »

Did you just quote my sig?

Well that's one way to take the thread off topic :pac:

Sure did.
My point is that what was the root cause problem for Leinster is not necessarily the same at Munster, despite the Foley-out clamour.

The Lost Sheep

funtime93 wrote: »

People will say it's the players fault but foley has to take the blame for consistently selecting Keatley when he's clearly not good enough. Can see why JJ left now. I know he wasn't playing great last season either but at least he's young and has the potential to become a proper 10. How many chances has Keatley had now? And how many dire performances will it take for foley to realise he's not good enough and must be dropped. Can't tackle, can't place kick, kicking out on the full. I actually feel sorry for him that he gets selected every week like he's hardly going to say no don't pick me is he. The difference a top quality 10 would make to that team would be huge.

Foley does have to take blame but CEO Garrett has to as well. JJ wasn't playing great last season and didn't deserve to be ahead of Keatley last season in the most part. Keatley isn't that bad but considering the way some of our alternatives have been he has been able to keep on playing. He should be dropped. His kicking has been horrid and he has been in with sports psychologist recently as he has shown he can do it but he has clear issues in the game.
A top quality 10 would be great but would it make such a big difference and we cant afford one and id prefer the money to be spent on fixing our structural issues than a short term fix of signing a top 10

Hagz wrote: »

The root issue lies at grass roots level. Player development has been an issue for far too long.

Totally. At all levels. Its basic structural issues causing problems in LTPD.

molloyjh wrote: »

That doesn't help but there are far more fundamental issues with Munster Rugby as a whole.

Very basic ones and the arguments about Cork v Limerick do and are silly looking to outsiders but the politics of Munster rugby mean these are important

Interested Observer

Clegg wrote: »

If we're talking about Munster players who'd start for Leinster then I think there'd only be Murray, PoM and Earls. Player development is a massive problem at Munster.

D. Ryan too I'd imagine.

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

True. (well maybe he is someone else's problem now).

Compare Leinster's trajectory over the last two years, and Munsters. Entirely different medicine needed.

Munster's trajectory has been in the same direction for five years now. It's had its plateaus from time to time and even the odd hint of something better but it flattered to deceive.

Foley isn't the problem. He's not part of the solution either unless he sees the light and calls for help. Munster need to scour Ireland and abroad for the players they are missing. They let some good players go, not just JJ but Paddy Butler, James Coughlan etc. Guys who maybe weren't going to be internationals but who'd put their body on the line every week and do the job they are paid to do.

Hagz

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sure did.
My point is that what was the root cause problem for Leinster is not necessarily the same at Munster, despite the Foley-out clamour.

You mean the lack of leadership and an international quality out-half?

Sounds like a very similar issue to be honest.

aimee1

razorblunt wrote: »

Superman does good, Earls did well! :pac:

That's just it you'd accept a loss, but I've never seen a Munster team throw in a towel like that.

I'd be reluctant to let Zebo start again until he proves himself, he's done nothing of note for a while now.

munster were very much in the game in the first half. But if they cant get scores from kickable penalties it becomes a problem in the players own minds.

Zebo looks like he knows he will be playing for Pau or whoever next season.

aimee1

Interested Observer wrote: »

D. Ryan too I'd imagine.

would take dave foley over Ryan. Ryan is 32/33. Think Foley would learn a lot from Cullen.

Clegg

Interested Observer wrote: »

D. Ryan too I'd imagine.

Forgot about him tbh. 2nd row is Leinster's big weak spot. I'd have him in, but he wouldn't necessarily be a starter right now with McCarthy playing as well as he is.

Clegg

aimee1 wrote: »

would take dave foley over Ryan. Ryan is 32/33. Think Foley would learn a lot from Cullen.

Foley has not impressed since his return from injury. Hope it's just a blip in form as we need as many decent locks as we can muster.

Interested Observer

aimee1 wrote: »

would take dave foley over Ryan. Ryan is 32/33. Think Foley would learn a lot from Cullen.

Foley has done nothing this year. He's not in the same class as Ryan as a player. Ryan is just gone 32, has a few years left.

Larbre34

Foley is the most serious among a number of fundamental problems for Munster. Him and the rest of the Munster old boys network, Micko and Flannery must leave their positions at the end of this window of European games.

I am aware Leinster have a similar coaching arrangement, but its starting to come together for Cullen and Dempsey, with the important presence of Kurt McQuilkin.

Stheno

Jesus lads, I took a break from studying to go out and watch the match with the Oh and get a bite to eat (the OH would be a Munster fan first)

There were about twenty Munster fans in the pub watching.

While the first half was bad, the second half was dire, just pure desperate. What has happened to Munster? Keatley looks haunted everytime he's to kick a penalty

I was like a lot of ye, thinking that with the red card the second half would be something different, but by god it was a horror.

I'd say half the Munster fans in the pub left even before Stade got the bonus try.

aimee1

Stheno wrote: »

I'd say half the Munster fans in the pub left even before Stade got the bonus try.

good news for them then, stade didnt get the TBP, they scored three tries only

washman3

Buer wrote: »

Tend to agree. Munster had a big win last week to steady them and, most importantly, Keatley will take huge confidence into this game relative to recent weeks. SF are having a very sloppy season. People can point to their ECC form but the fact is that they're on 10 points from 3 games and all 10 have come from games against the worst team in Europe (they didn't even get a LBP at home to Zebre).

With the return of TOD and Munster knowing that anything but a win essentially eliminates them, I think they'll catch a Stade Francais side who lack that hunger.

Good prediction.....!!

Stheno

aimee1 wrote: »

good news for them then, stade didnt get the TBP, they scored three tries only

Shows how much attention I paid Thought they got three in the second half!

Clegg

I forgot Copeland was even on the pitch until he gave away that stupid penalty near the end of the second half.

pickarooney

wp_rathead wrote: »

Murray can hold head high..
Zebo and Earls were poor - don't know what the hell has happened to Dave Foley but he has been woeful

won't be long until Macalou is seen with Les Bleus

I see he has form for running past Irish defences.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2h6opc

Moflojo

How today felt as a Munster fan...

vistafinder

Quinlan actually looked pale after watching that. How the hell are they going to get out of this mess. Where would you even start?

Buer

Bridge93 wrote: »

As good or bad as Foley may be as coach can people accept that the players are just rubbish generally? This isn't all the coach's fault

He has a few top class players but he also has a few lads that wouldn't get anywhere near the Munster 23 of five years ago.

Kilcoyne, Stander, TOD, Murray and Earls are the only lads there tonight who I'd be comfortable starting in a big game. Zebo has the talent to be in that group but is a complete liability and cannot be counted on. When the going get tough, the tough get going but the problem is Zebo looks like he wants to be going anywhere but the pitch tonight. That's probably harder to take than the likes of Mike Sherry who will put his heart and soul into the game but will never have the talent of Zebo.

Guys like John Ryan, Robin Copeland, Dave Foley (his fall from grace is one of the most baffling things in Irish rugby), ROM and Conway should not, under any circumstances, be starting a massive crunch European game based on either their form this season or their overall quality as a player.

But you have to say the coaching has to be held accountable for a significant amount. In Saili, they've a highly rated guy who came here with a big reputation and has looked about as good as Denis Hurley. That cannot be right.

There were a lot of raised eyebrows at the cheap and cheerful coaching ticket that was assembled under Foley. MOD, Flannery, Walsh...all former team mates of Foley with the combined professional rugby coaching experience that equates to the square root of f*ck all. Bullsh*t appointments in bullsh*t jobs. MOD is "technical adviser". Flannery is their scrum coach having never done the job before.

If it wasn't for Stander at times, that score could have been out of sight before any red card. His carrying off the base was sensational given his front five were being demolished.

The powers that be need to step in as I'd genuinely fear that guys like Murray could be lost to Irish rugby long term if he's forced to endure that level of rubbish for much longer. Zebo might go but I'd let him based on this season, to date.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

On another note, Macalou who is starting for Stade at flanker is the same player that scored a superb individual try against Ireland at U20 level.

Oops

kuang1

garhjw wrote: »

Foley is becoming the Steve Staunton of Irish rugby

This.

I've been saying this for a while myself.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Hire a new head coach and keep Foley as forwards coach. I'd hate to lose Foley after the job he did under Penney.

Understand why you'd say that but he can't stay in that capacity. He has lost the respect of the dressing room and fans from what I can see. You cannot stay on in any shape or form and I would think he has too much self respect and pride to take that demotion.

He doesn't appear to be a guy who would go abroad either, I reckon, so it's sad to see what may become of what was such a promising career 3 years ago. Michael Bradley #2.

Crimsonforce

"My fellas aren't close to dem fellas over there"

aimee1

Buer wrote: »

Dave Foley (his fall from grace is one of the most baffling things in Irish rugby)

Zebo might go but I'd let him based on this season, to date

Foley looks like he either needs a change of scenery or a coach who will get the best out of him. He looks lost IMO. He looked great with POC beside him guiding him.

Zebo I think has already decided he is going to Pau or wherever next season.

CatFromHue

Jamie Heaslip

aimee1 wrote: »

good news for them then, stade didnt get the TBP, they scored three tries only

How they didn't get the fourth I dunno.

Terrible pass from Plisson.

They needed it too as they're still along way to go from qualifying

thomond2006

I saw a stat at half-time saying Stade have conceded 11 turnovers. It seems amazing that Munster didn't score off that.

CatFromHue

Jamie Heaslip

I do remember Munster stealing alot in the first half, not so much in the second though.

If anything I thought it went the other way with Stade winning more of the turnovers in that half.

aimee1

thomond2006 wrote: »

I saw a stat at half-time saying Stade have conceded 11 turnovers. It seems amazing that Munster didn't score off that.

keatley kicked out on the full from one with a 2 man overlap

there was a forward pass thrown from another

Saili took contact from another.