Why do you hate Irish?

HIB

xband wrote: »

Also Ireland is far too language heavy on college entrance requirements. I know two people who went to university abroad because they were scientifically / mathematically oriented but were being forced to do English (literature mostly at HL), Irish and a modern European language.

They got A1 in maths, physics and applied maths but didn't get into university here to do a degree in physics!!

In one case failed pass Irish and the other failed French.

I'd agree the requirement for a foreign language, and Irish, in order to get into college, is ridiculous.
But, I would say that anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence and the necessary motivation should be able to manage a pass in Irish ordinary level.
I was that soldier. Hated Irish. Useless at it. Dropped down to pass because I was afraid of failing and not getting into college. Had I persisted in doing higher level, theres a good chance that would have happened, despite doing very well in other subjects. I was OK at pass level though. Very basic primary school Irish is enough to pass ordinary level leaving cert. In some ways, it was kind of a useful life lesson to get at 18, that sometimes you have to do stuff you really hate, in order to get where you want to go.

Rabo Karabekian

It really is about how it's taught. A poster (from page 1 or 2) mentioned about how there are many teachers teaching the subject with little to know knowledge of the language and, anecdotally - from talking to primary and secondary school teachers, this is absolutely the case (there's a similar problem with maths, btw). When I think back to how Irish was taught to me in school (emphasis on rote learning of grammar rules with no explanation about how the grammar worked) I can see that this has probably been the case for a long, long time.

I did an Irish class a few years ago, and the emphasis was on just talking about things (basic things). It was a beginner's class (despite many, many years studying it in primary and secondary school) but I learned more in that class than all the years in school.

HIB

Qualitymark wrote: »

It's seriously unfair not to hire people who've studied a subject for 13 years without learning it for a job that requires intelligence? Surely it's not really setting the bar that high

Naturally you were brilliant at every subject you ever studied of course. Great to be so wonderfully smug.

ted1

Qualitymark wrote: »

Those who say the way they were taught Irish turned them off it: how should Irish be taught?

It should be taught as a spoken language.
No point in spending days learning lists like.
Liom, leat, leis, lei, linn, libh, Leo etc.

Caoimhgh1n

ted1 wrote: »

It should be taught as a spoken language.
No point in spending days learning lists like.
Liom, leat, leis, lei, linn, libh, Leo etc.

Will I agree, from my experience, French is not that different.

Learning of mon,ma,mes ton,ta,tes son,ses ect. All of the verb endings too.

Huntergonzo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Do you think the whole world should speak English?

Of course not, but would be handy if we all had a common language I suppose, regardless of what one that is, but you shouldn't force things on people.

Now in fairness I've done you the courtesy of answering your questions, care to do that same for me? Nothing new, just what I've asked:

1. Why does it matter what language you teach a child in once you're teaching them to be good people?

2. Specifically what practical use does Irish have?

3. Why the emotional attachment to a particular language anyway?

Caoimhgh1n

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Of course not, but would be handy if we all had a common language I suppose, regardless of what one that is, but you shouldn't force things on people.

Now in fairness I've done you the courtesy of answering your questions, care to do that same for me? Nothing new, just what I've asked:

1. Why does it matter what language you teach a child in once you're teaching them to be good people?

2. Specifically what practical use does Irish have?

3. Why the emotional attachment to a particular language anyway?

2. What practical use does English have? None. We could all start speaking Spanish and Portuguese tomorrow morning, and just deal with South American countries, Spain and Portugal ect.

No language is really practical, we only need one.

Huntergonzo

ted1 wrote: »

Utter rubbish. In garlscoils no time is wasted on leaving the language. All subjects are taught through Irish, immersion is the best way to teach a language.

Which part is rubbish ted? I never said immersion wasn't the best way to teach a language (no idea where you got that from), I just don't see the point in learning Irish.

ancapailldorcha

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

They're only here for the tax dodge, or so we're told any time someone mentions closing the various loopholes. Don't fool yerself into thinking they're here because we're such great workers anyway.

If you subscribe to the 'prepare kids for the corporate world' theory, maybe sending passive-agressive emails and pestering people for 'updates' should be a leaving cert subject

Given our poor education system, they're certainly not here for Irish staff. I never mentioned "preparing kids for the corporate world". I'd rather they spent time learning useful skills they could build their livelihoods on.

Huntergonzo

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

2. What practical use does English have? None. We could all start speaking Spanish and Portuguese tomorrow morning, and just deal with South American countries, Spain and Portugal ect.

No language is really practical, we only need one.

Hahaha in fairness it does have practical use here, we couldn't have this conversation if we couldn't speak a common language! And no we couldn't all just start speaking spanish or portuguese in the morning, not unless we all develop a huge will to do so and we all become extremely quick learners!

Caoimhgh1n

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Which part is rubbish ted? I never said immersion wasn't the best way to teach a language (no idea where you got that from), I just don't see the point in learning Irish.

The more languages you speak, the easier it is for you to learn more.

Banjoxed

LordSutch wrote: »

I think a lot of the older generation really do hate Irish because of the way it was taught (and beaten into them) during the 1940s 50s 60s and 70s - ouch!

Not that the beating it into them worked, because mostly it didn't.

I don't hate Irish, but I think the Compulsory nature of its teaching 'post Inter Cert' needs to looked into.

The maddest teacher I had - an admirer of Franco - used an Irish reader with priggish kids who were excessively devout Catholics and hated pop music. Those who were the worst teachers were failed social engineers who weren't a million miles away from Hugo Hamilton's appaling father in The Speckled People.

Thankfully I had a decent human being as my Irish teacher for three of the five years of secondary school and though Irish remained a weak subject for me, at least I left school with some affection for the language and a recognition of its importance.

Caoimhgh1n

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Hahaha in fairness it does have practical use here, we couldn't have this conversation if we couldn't speak a common language! And no we couldn't all just start speaking spanish or portuguese in the morning, not unless we all develop a huge will to do so and we all become extremely quick learners!

Yes, of course there needs to be a common language, but that doesn't mean you can not speak an additional language, or two, maybe even three!

xband

We had a guy who used to write the names of people who had "died for the language" on the board and explode into fits of nationalistic rage if you didn't do your homework.

He even used to call me a "west Brit" as a "hillarious" joke.

He really gave me an awful impression of the language.

That wasn't centuries ago either.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If irish was given as much time as maths, english, religion or geography I wouldn't have as much problem. But in my school for example 50% or more of the day went to irish.

Also all those subjects are useful. Irish literally has no purpose.

I'll say "bullshit" to that.

Banjoxed

xband wrote: »

We had a guy who used to write the names of people who had "died for the language" on the board and explode into fits of nationalistic rage if you didn't do your homework.

He even used to call me a "west Brit" as a "hillarious" joke.

He really gave me an awful impression of the language.

That wasn't centuries ago either.

I had one of those - the guaranteed way to put him into a rage was to mention watching anything on the BBC the night before. Some freedom to fight for.

Caoimhgh1n

xband wrote: »

We had a guy who used to write the names of people who had "died for the language" on the board and explode into fits of nationalistic rage if you didn't do your homework.

He even used to call me a "west Brit" as a "hillarious" joke.

He really gave me an awful impression of the language.

That wasn't centuries ago either.

You can not let one person ruin something for you, in all fairness. If I started writing about Shakespeare and started calling people West Irish Filth or whatever (I obviously don't think that), would you still like English?

Qualitymark

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

You can not let one person ruin something for you, in all fairness. If I started writing about Shakespeare and started calling people West Irish Filth or whatever (I obviously don't think that), would you still like English?

Well… considering how few people know how to spell "its" (possessive pronoun) and "it's" (short form of "it is") and how enraged they get at "grammar Nazis", I think there's a certain hatred aroused by teachers of English too

Owryan

The way it was taught was so sterile and lacking in any passion or enjoyment.....learn phrase.....repeat. Peig was the reason i grew to hate it. But still i use a couple of words/phrases everyday.

Funnily enough i found that when i was working with children recently that foreign children enjoyed learning irish much more than irish kids.

ted1

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Which part is rubbish ted? I never said immersion wasn't the best way to teach a language (no idea where you got that from), I just don't see the point in learning Irish.

Having a second language is never a waste, it enables You to learn other languages with very much ease.

wexfordman2

"I'm an old woman now, with one foot in the grave. If I had known when I started out in life what I know now, I wouldn't have had the heart to carry on "


That is the first paragraph in Peig, the book that we were all forced to study for two years for our leaving cert. And it didn't improve.


That a why I hated Irish, it was depressing.

Qualitymark

One person I know is still full of rage at the teachers who robbed him of Irish by the way they taught it. Christian Brothers…

xband

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

You can not let one person ruin something for you, in all fairness. If I started writing about Shakespeare and started calling people West Irish Filth or whatever (I obviously don't think that), would you still like English?

You'd be surprised though. These people are supposed to be educators! They leave lasting impressions.

Huntergonzo

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The more languages you speak, the easier it is for you to learn more.

I knew someone would say that, but I didn't ask 'what's the practical use of learning another language?', I asked 'what's the practical use in learning Irish?'

Ps, I know there is no practical use and I also know that nobody who likes Irish is going to admit that, so we can park that question if you wish rather than going around in hopeless circles, the other 2 questions remain unanswered though.

Banjoxed

wexfordman2 wrote: »

"I'm an old woman now, with one foot in the grave. If I had known when I started out in life what I know now, I wouldn't have had the heart to carry on "


That is the first paragraph in Peig, the book that we were all forced to study for two years for our leaving cert. And it didn't improve.


That a why I hated Irish, it was depressing.

My teacher in fifth and sixth year always made the point that Peig was history and in no way was a model for an ideal Ireland - took the misery out of it.

I do urge anyone to read Hugo Hamilton's The Speckled People though about growing up with a father who was as purist "Irish Ireland" as they come - and be thankful the purists weren't successful.

Qualitymark

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I knew someone would say that, but I didn't ask 'what's the practical use of learning another language?', I asked 'what's the practical use in learning Irish?'

This was exactly the point made by the educational reformers of the early 19th century when the British system of National Schools was set up. Irish children were to be taught through English, Irish was to be suppressed, and with it any sense of Irish nationality. Practical subjects would be to the fore. Good servants and farm labourers and obedient employees would be produced.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How many people on this site who claim to be fluent in Irish has language proficiency beyond the average 12 year old in English? Not many I'd wager.

Is anybody claiming that here?

Eugene Norman

BoatMad wrote: »

English is the working language of the country , not to mention the world, to suggest that would be optional is lunacy

Meaningless. Both are official languages and both therefore taught in schools.

Ferris_Bueller

I went to a Gaelscoil for 8 years and a Gaelcholaiste for 6 years, still speak it regularly whether it's in work or with friends/family. I'm unsure how it was taught in most schools as we were fluent by the time we were 5 or 6, but all of my friends say that it was taught very poorly and most of them couldn't even string a sentence together. I would think that if all primary schools were Gaelscoils it would solve this issue as by the time kids are 12 they would be fluent and from there on they wouldn't have the issue of struggling with the language and would be able to complete the current Irish Leaving Cert exam with ease. There would be a lot less hatred towards the language as a lot of people who hate it not hate it because they struggled with it in school.

I completely disagree with people saying it's a waste of money having all signs and notices etc in Irish, I think it is disrespectful to people who do use Irish regularly. If we had to hide Irish even more I believe the language would die out eventually.

Huntergonzo

Qualitymark wrote: »

This was exactly the point made by the educational reformers of the early 19th century when the British system of National Schools was set up. Irish children were to be taught through English, Irish was to be suppressed, and with it any sense of Irish nationality. Practical subjects would be to the fore. Good servants and farm labourers and obedient employees would be produced.

Still won't return me the courtesy I see, if you want to dictate do it to someone else.