Why do you hate Irish?

Huntergonzo

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Yes, of course there needs to be a common language, but that doesn't mean you can not speak an additional language, or two, maybe even three!

I know it doesn't, I never said learning another language is a bad thing, but you said english has no practical use, clearly here it does!

tayto lover

I have no problems with the language itself, it's a lovely language and our own.
I have a big problem with the teacher who beat me and scared the life out of me in Primary school when I made a mistake. They made me fear that hour of Irish.

It's sad to think that I learned more Irish outside school than I did in it.

suicide_circus

Don't hate it, it just has no relevance to my day to day life

Qualitymark

wexfordman2 wrote: »

"I'm an old woman now, with one foot in the grave. If I had known when I started out in life what I know now, I wouldn't have had the heart to carry on "


That is the first paragraph in Peig, the book that we were all forced to study for two years for our leaving cert. And it didn't improve.


That a why I hated Irish, it was depressing.

Kind of bizarre when you consider how teens adore dystopian fiction!

Caoimhgh1n

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I know it doesn't, I never said learning another language is a bad thing, but you said english has no practical use, clearly here it does!

The world only needs one language, that was what I was trying to say.

Iwasfrozen

The King of Moo wrote: »

Vive l'immersion!

Ok there are a couple of things going on here. You're misrepresenting my points and disguising it in a big wall of text so I'm going to break up your post to get to the point.

First of all, Irish is not so different from Romance languages, especially Spanish. It just sounds very different.

Irish is more different to the Romance languages than English is, especially in grammar. It's true that Irish did pick up a lot of its vocabulary from French [not Spanish] but to a lesser degree than English and the Irish grammar is completely different.

But children are probably learning languages with notable differences as it shows them that languages are systems and not copy-and-paste jobs, and improves their general mental flexibility.

Are you somehow suggesting that because there are more differences between English and Irish a child is going to have measurably improved benefits from learning Irish over French? I'm going to need some source on that one bud..

Now, what you're talking about isn't really immersion. Of course children can access content in any language online, but how many children or parents are going to actively seek that out? And if they have to seek it out, it's not immersion. There's no harm in extra learning like that, of course, but if a child comes home and their parent takes out the laptop, sits it on front of them and says "Ok, now let's watch this fun cartoon en francais!" a lot of children will see that as an active learning experience where they're conscious of learning something. That will inhibit their learning and will put a lot of children off it. And that's all down to whether or not parents take the time to do that.

I never said it was immersion, you did and I used the same term to highlight the inconsistencies in your argument. How many children are going to actively seek out and watch Spongebob square pants or Dora the explorer on TG4? Quite frankly the fact parents do have to consciously put effort into finding Spanish or French media makes it more likely the child will watch the media. They're going to see it as a chore regardless and will only be done with parental pressure.

As I said before, it would be great if parents and teachers actively used resources like TG4, but children can still passively absorb a lot of Irish without that. Hearing a few words in Irish as they flick through the channels helps, as it shows them that it's a language that can be used in the everyday situations they're familiar with, without it being presented in an obvious learning environment. It's the same with children's characters on RTÉ throwing in the odd Irish word, which happened the last time I checked.

Children cannot absorb Irish, or any other language, through hearing the odd word on TG4. That's utter nonsense. Could you learn Spanish from watching Isabel?

And there's the other forms of passive absorption, like seeing it on every sign and official document they come across, and occasionally hearing it used (if there are any parents here concerned about their children not learning well enough, use it at home: even if you only remember a few words and make mistakes, ask your kids some basic questions in Irish when they get home - it makes a big difference).

Pleace names in themselves do not teach a child any Irish beyond how to say the unused name of aplace in Irish (a redundant skill considering the place more than likely already has a name in English which is actually used)

Why would any parent waste their time teaching their child a dying language if it wasn't on the leaving cert. But that's beside the point, parents would often be in a better position to help their children with French or Spanish than Irish.

That's not full immersion, but it's still close to how other Europeans encounter English, through the English words they use, music, and film and TV to an extent. It's why Belgians generally have a higher standard of English than the French - they get a lot of American films with Flemish and French subtitles to cater for everyone, unlike in France where they're usually dubbed into French.

Different situation altogether, these children probably come from homes with fluent English speaking parents who know how important speaking English is for their child's career and encourage them to learn the language, often even financing trips to English speaking countries like Ireland to help them improve.

English is the world's linga franca, it can't be compared to some dying language spoken by a couple thousand people at best.

But if you're really set on French immersion, we'll need to change a few things. Having All - French schools is the obvious and best move. I'm sure it's not hard to find teachers qualified to teach every subject through French. You'll need French TV and radio stations readily accessible for children to passively encounter. You'll have to change all the Irish on signs and businesses to French, and have people actively speaking French in there daily lives from children to pick up.
And we'll still have to overhaul how we train teachers to teach languages. This is a massive problem with how Irish is often taught, and there'll be no point changing Irish to French if we're not going to focus on engagement, passive grammar learning, production through speaking and consolidation.

Apart from that, there shouldn't be any problems massively changing our country to ensure children are immersed in French.

Nonsensical hyperbole again. We don't need to change signs or businesses to French, these already don't impact a person's ability to learn a language and French media is already widely available in Ireland. Much more so than Irish media.

Of course teacher's are never going to teach subjects through French but they're never going to teach subjects through Irish in mainstream schools anyway so that doesn't really matter.

Any more nonsensical hyperbole you want to throw out and attribute to me? Throw enough **** and some might stick after all.

Huntergonzo

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I went to a Gaelscoil for 8 years and a Gaelcholaiste for 6 years, still speak it regularly whether it's in work or with friends/family. I'm unsure how it was taught in most schools as we were fluent by the time we were 5 or 6, but all of my friends say that it was taught very poorly and most of them couldn't even string a sentence together. I would think that if all primary schools were Gaelscoils it would solve this issue as by the time kids are 12 they would be fluent and from there on they wouldn't have the issue of struggling with the language and would be able to complete the current Irish Leaving Cert exam with ease. There would be a lot less hatred towards the language as a lot of people who hate it not hate it because they struggled with it in school.

I completely disagree with people saying it's a waste of money having all signs and notices etc in Irish, I think it is disrespectful to people who do use Irish regularly. If we had to hide Irish even more I believe the language would die out eventually.

Terrible idea, how exactly would parents help their children with homework if it was all in Irish? Please you your head rather than your heart. And what gain is there from learning a language that so few people speak anyway?, why not learn Spanish or French for example, millions of people worldwide speak those languages (and don't bother with the history of why, we're living here and now).

Dirty Dingus McGee

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Terrible idea, how exactly would parents help their children with homework if it was all in Irish? Please you your head rather than your heart. And what gain is there from learning a language that so few people speak anyway?, why not learn Spanish or French for example, millions of people worldwide speak those languages (and don't bother with the history of why, we're living here and now).

Maybe the children could do it themselves.

Iwasfrozen

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Maybe the children could do it themselves.

No thanks, I'll pass.

Huntergonzo

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Maybe the children could do it themselves.

They do, but sometimes children ask for a bit of help with their homework you know, I often help my nephew for example. Anyway what do you suggest I do next time he asks for my help, bark back at him to 'do it yourself'! Jaysus I'd hate to be your child!!!

Caoimhgh1n

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Maybe the children could do it themselves.

I agree. Also, most books have an English version too, so you could keep that book in case you get stuck..

Dirty Dingus McGee

Huntergonzo wrote: »

They do, but sometimes children ask for a bit of help with their homework you know, I often help my nephew for example. Anyway what do you suggest I do next time he asks for my help, bark back at him to 'do it yourself'! Jaysus I'd hate to be your child!!!

I'll be honest and say I never really got any help with my homework assignments from my parents, general queries but no direct help with anything.Surely the child could translate for the person helping as if they are immersed in the Irish language for 6 hours a day they'll be fluent rivalry quickly I would imagine and therefore the person helping won't necessarily need a command of the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I went to a Gaelscoil for 8 years and a Gaelcholaiste for 6 years, still speak it regularly whether it's in work or with friends/family. I'm unsure how it was taught in most schools as we were fluent by the time we were 5 or 6, but all of my friends say that it was taught very poorly and most of them couldn't even string a sentence together. I would think that if all primary schools were Gaelscoils it would solve this issue as by the time kids are 12 they would be fluent and from there on they wouldn't have the issue of struggling with the language and would be able to complete the current Irish Leaving Cert exam with ease. There would be a lot less hatred towards the language as a lot of people who hate it not hate it because they struggled with it in school.

I completely disagree with people saying it's a waste of money having all signs and notices etc in Irish, I think it is disrespectful to people who do use Irish regularly. If we had to hide Irish even more I believe the language would die out eventually.

The whole point is to educate, not resurect a language.

The one consistent, positive thing about the Irish education system is that it is for the most part in the langauge the kids already speak. It's in a langauge most of the western world speaks. Why change something that works fine as it is?

Snickers Man

tina1040 wrote: »

It has to be the way it's taught. You learn it every day for 8 years in primary and still can't have a simple conversation or understand any Nuacht on tv.

That's a very valid point but I don't think that has to do with the "way" it is taught. It's what we use it for that's so debilitating.

I believe that after 12-13 years of learning Irish at school, the only fluent passages of the language that people of my generation would recognise (apart from childhood phrases like suig síos, seas suas and "an bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?" are The National Anthem, the Lord's Prayer and the "Tá áthas an domhan orm..." speech.

(Younger generations probably wouldn't even know the Lord's Prayer)

I don't think that's the fault of teachers; it's the fault of the gaelgeoirí. They seem more concerned with having every official document from a driving licence application to a tax form in bilingual form than they have with people actually speaking the language.

Simple test: How do you say "**** off!" as Gaeilge?

I can virtually guarantee you that every teenager on an exchange visit to Germany will learn the words and phrases "ashloch, vikser, scheisse, hau ap, verpiss dich" etc (I'm not sure I've spelt all of these or even any of these correctly. But I can sure say them. )

Two weeks in France and they will come back saying "merde, salaud, va te faire foutre, and tu me fais chier"

13 years of Irish and what can they say that's equivalent? This is essential vocabulary but not the sort of thing you will learn at school. It's the job of the speakers to make this known to the general public.

Another crime for which Gailgeoiri should be forced to wear a golden shovel (to denote their contribution to burying the language) instead of a gold fáinne is their insistence that their own regional dialect is the only valid form of the language and that all other speakers are to be ignored until they knuckle under.

Granted, there may be difficulties in comprehension. On first listening somebody from Munster who pronounces "Tabhair dom do lámh" as Toor dum duh lawve may have difficulty believing that somebody from Ulster saying Tore doo duh lawoo is uttering the same sentence. But frequently, in my considerable experience, they are just being pig ignorant and obtuse.

A bit like Americans pretending not to understand you when you say "mobile" instead of "cell phone" and "pavement" instead of "sidewalk". Annoying isn't it?

If you want people to speak the language, be prepared to have conversations on real subjects, not arcane words for sterile bureucratic language.

And be prepared to sacrifice a bit of purity by allowing foreign words into the language to increase fluency.

Look at the difference between Hebrew and Irish, both of which were resurrected at the same time. The former is now a working vernacular, albeit one that contains numerous words and phrases from other languages including English, German and Arabic.

The latter is a chore that people look forward to forgetting about as soon as they leave school.

Cad é an focal ar "a bunch of ****"? Níl fhios agam.

Huntergonzo

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'll be honest and say I never really got any help with my homework assignments from my parents, general queries but no direct help with anything.Surely the child could translate for the person helping as if they are immersed in the Irish language for 6 hours a day they'll be fluent rivalry quickly I would imagine and therefore the person helping won't necessarily need a command of the language.

Well what's the point in this needless extra barrier, what good will it do, at the moment I can aready help him (and he doesn't need much help in fairness), so why introduce a situation whereby it would become fundamentally more difficult to help for no practical gain? This suggestion seems ludicrous to me.

Huntergonzo

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I agree. Also, most books have an English version too, so you could keep that book in case you get stuck..

I have to admit these Irish lovers don't seem very interested in helping their children with homework, what's the issue with it? Do you not even ask them the spellings or times tables???

I even ask my 10 year old nephew his Irish spellings, we usually have a good laugh because I get the pronunciations completely arseways!

Caoimhgh1n

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I have to admit these Irish lovers don't seem very interested in helping their children with homework, what's the issue with it? Do you not even ask them the spellings or times tables???

I even ask my 10 year old nephew his Irish spellings, we usually have a good laugh because I get the pronunciations completely arseways!

The pronunciations aren't that hard, but some teachers don't help in that regard either.

Of course they ask them their tables ect, but most of it should be done by the actual child, homework is to see if the child grasped what was taught in school that day, so the teacher knows who needs help. They won't know that "Aoife" or whatever is struggling if the parent gives all the answers.

Iwasfrozen

Would making all national schools Gaelophone even be legal? I was just looking at the constitution and this sentence jumped out at me.

The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

It seems from reading that if the Gaelophone school in question is defined to be a "type" of school the state is required to provide an alternative. Much as how every village in the border counties are dotted with "catholic" and "protestant" schools.

Huntergonzo

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The pronunciations aren't that hard, but some teachers don't help in that regard either.

Of course they ask them their tables ect, but most of it should be done by the actual child, homework is to see if the child grasped what was taught in school that day, so the teacher knows who needs help. They won't know that "Aoife" or whatever is struggling if the parent gives all the answers.

Of course most of the work should be done by the child, I'm certainly not doing my nephew's homework for him, my homework days are over! Anyway when he does ask questions I like to make him think rather than just give him the answer, he seems to enjoy that.

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would making all national schools Gaelophone even be legal? I was just looking at the constitution and this sentence jumped out at me.

The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

It seems from reading that if the Gaelophone school in question is defined to be a "type" of school the state is required to provide an alternative. Much as how every village in the border counties are dotted with "catholic" and "protestant" schools.

They're called Gaelscoil or most people refer to them as all irish here.I've never ever heard of them referred to as Gaelophone.

kefir32

Irish grammar rules, always wrecked my head in school, had no problem with french grammar, always seemed so logical to follow as opposed to the complexity of irish grammar. If I was encouraged in oral Irish as opposed to being chastised for errors in my written I would be certainly less allergic to it than I am now. I couldn't care less if it dies out.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would making all national schools Gaelophone even be legal? I was just looking at the constitution and this sentence jumped out at me.

The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

It seems from reading that if the Gaelophone school in question is defined to be a "type" of school the state is required to provide an alternative. Much as how every village in the border counties are dotted with "catholic" and "protestant" schools.

It could easily be read that the schools need instruction in all languages. If you are thinking languages. It really means religion though.

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It could easily be read that the schools need instruction in all languages. If you are thinking languages. It really means religion though.

By precedence. But a new system where all schools are gaelophone is a new precedent and could be open to challenge. That's why I say it's questionable legality.

Qualitymark

kefir32 wrote: »

Irish grammar rules, always wrecked my head in school, had no problem with french grammar, always seemed so logical to follow as opposed to the complexity of irish grammar. If I was encouraged in oral Irish as opposed to being chastised for errors in my written I would be certainly less allergic to it than I am now. I couldn't care less if it dies out.

Complexity schmomplexity. Irish has only 11 irregular verbs. The grammar isn't that sticky.

ted1

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I have to admit these Irish lovers don't seem very interested in helping their children with homework, what's the issue with it? Do you not even ask them the spellings or times tables???

I even ask my 10 year old nephew his Irish spellings, we usually have a good laugh because I get the pronunciations completely arseways!

With my basic cupla focail I can help my daughters with their homework. Maths is believe it or not primary school lesson so the plus , minus, division symbols etc all remain the same. As for English that's in English , any Irish words are also written done. It's not rocket science but I understand your dealing with a nephew and not your own child so your vey much qualified to past comment with regards helping kids do home work in a daily basis...

Hotei

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But in my school for example 50% or more of the day went to irish.

HIB wrote: »

Its actually not. I can back up this claim. I still remember how the day went in my NS.
9-11 Irish
11 - 11.15 Small break
11.15 - 12.30 Maths
12.30 - 1 Lunch
1-3 English, Geography, History, Science&Nature,Religion. This was rotated around. One of these was done each day. In communion/confirmation years, it was almost always religion.

So out of 5 teaching hours, we spent 2 doing Irish. So 40%.
I wouldn't say learning Irish is a total waste, but 40% of the day, everyday .....ridiculuous. I hope it has changed.

Pardon me for being a bit pedantic here, but 40% (not sure that that's true either) isn't 50% or more! I'm finding it impossible to believe that out of five school days in a week, a child was being taught Irish two and a half days or more of Irish alone!! I'm still not buying it.

Caoimhgh1n

I haven't been out of Primary school for too long, and I can honestly say, in my school anyways, we spent about 60-90 mins on irish per week. Very little time, all we did was maths and science. Every school is different though.

Iwasfrozen

Hotei wrote: »

Pardon me for being a bit pedantic here, but 40% (not sure that that's true either) isn't 50% or more! I'm finding it impossible to believe that out of five school days in a week, a child was being taught Irish two and a half days or more of Irish alone!! I'm still not buying it.

Buy it or don't, I don't care.

In 4th class we had a principle who spent half the day on history, a quarter of the day on Irish and everything else jammed into the rest of the week. Around prayers of course.

ponzook

Don't really hate it but whats the point of learning something for 14 years that you are never going to use again!

Huntergonzo

ted1 wrote: »

With my basic cupla focail I can help my daughters with their homework. Maths is believe it or not primary school lesson so the plus , minus, division symbols etc all remain the same. As for English that's in English , any Irish words are also written done. It's not rocket science but I understand your dealing with a nephew and not your own child so your vey much qualified to past comment with regards helping kids do home work in a daily basis...

Badly spelt, condescending and sarcastic post, honestly I wouldn't like you doing homework with any children, if that's your attitude.

Ps, my nephew lives right beside me and I see him after school at least 4 times a week, he's not like some visitor that just comes over a couple of times a year.