Why do you hate Irish?

strelok

BoatMad wrote: »

huh, most adults bilingual or not,having gone through secondary school, would have better abilities then a 12 year old in english

bro, do u even facebook?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? I'm not interested in the revival or survival of the Irish language. Why should the state dictate what my kids learn? [If I ever have any in Ireland]

That's the way states work.They have loads of requirements of their citizens whether they like it or not.

Why should the state dictate that children have to get an education in the first place.

Iwasfrozen

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

That's the way states work.They have loads of requirements of their citizens whether they like it or not.

Why should the state dictate that children have to get an education in the first place.

States work through consent of the populace, there's a growing backlash against the teaching mandatory teaching of Irish. To hell with Irish if it can't survive on it's own steam.

R.D. aka MR.D

I teach English as a Foreign Language so have a huge interest in second language acquisition.

It's definitely the way it's taught and one problem is the fact that the teachers usually aren't very good at the language themselves. A lot of my roommates in college went to Marino and St. Pat's. Yes, they learn it but there are ways around it. I'm sure anybody who has been in the girls bathroom of Quinns in Drumcondra have heard the trading of assignments and so on.

It's also not taught in an engaging way.

That's why the languages you learn in secondary school are usually more memorable because they are taught with a view to actually acquiring the language for communicative purposes.

The grammar translation method was definitely the done thing in my primary school. Memorise this, regurgitate it whether you understand it or not.

Maybe they've changed some things now but it was just a disaster when I was at school.

BoatMad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I meant how many posters of this forum who claim to be fluent in Irish would have language proficiency in Irish beyond an average 12 year old's abilities in English. Not many I'd wager.

Oh, yes I see, I agree

Paramite Pie

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Except we can. Immersion is not place names on signs, immersion is access to media, and we have access to Spanish and French media. Much more so than Irish. What everyday Irish do children pick up outside school? I can't think of any.

Our French teacher used to tell us to watch French channels. None of us ever did. While I get what you're trying to say, we're at the top of the linguistic food chain and most kid's aren't going to learn squat on their own time.
However there were some radio shows that were in Irish in the evenings that did the top40 charts or whatever -- i listened because i liked the music. A lot of people would text in to the radio, surprisingly enough! I was in the country so there wasn't a lot of choice in radio if I wanted current music. I imagine that helped my listening skills.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Learning Spanish and/or French improves a child's general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. In the latter case much more so as Spanish and French are both Romance languages and can aid in the acquisition of other Romance languages far more than Irish can.

Learning any language improves general cognition. Irish has a very different structure to many European languages -- if you only learn to pick up similarish languages then you might struggle when learning a vastly different one. I was one of the better students in my French class by the way -- so I imagine I wasn't held back by doing Irish.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A child thought Irish really well from a young age will be at a disadvantage learning French than a child thought Spanish really well from a young age.

There is no argument for Irish immersion learning over immersion learning in a useful language.

When learning Korean I seemed to pick up different concepts quicker than my other English speaking peers. That's anecdotal of course, too narrow a sample also. Korean and Japanese follow an somewhat reverse structure of Irish/Welsh with the verbs always being last instead of first, while Arabic follows the general Verb-Subject-Object structure like Irish does.

Of course I only discovered this by going further afield. Most Irish don't try learning these languages (compared to french/german) but with every language I learn I always find myself subconsciously comparing it to Irish and not just English. How well you learn a language is always affected by prior knowledge. The languages I listed are also considered some of the most difficult of English (SVO) speakers to learn.

I'm fine with making Irish optional btw but there's plenty of parents willing to have their kids learn Irish too. You don't have to understand that - a lot don't. Most people simply want reform.

Sh1tbag OToole

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

While the US multinationals who fuel the economy have to import staff. This attitude is exactly why so many people have had to emigrate.

They're only here for the tax dodge, or so we're told any time someone mentions closing the various loopholes. Don't fool yerself into thinking they're here because we're such great workers anyway.

If you subscribe to the 'prepare kids for the corporate world' theory, maybe sending passive-agressive emails and pestering people for 'updates' should be a leaving cert subject

BMMachine

i think its useless and dont care for it. i see the point in it, but i dont like how forced and boring it is. It really pissed me off that there was no option not to do it

gormdubhgorm

I don't hate irish I respect it as part of our culture. But I can see why some people hate it:

1) Lack of proper education and effort while at school

2) Identifies more with Britain/America then Ireland and sees Irish as antiquated.

3) Some zealots who love Irish sneer at people who attempt to speak Irish that are not as good as them and they nearly enjoy the sneering as much as speaking Irish!

Sh1tbag OToole

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

2) Identifies more with Britain/America then Ireland and sees Irish as antiquated.

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

Why must it be a symptom of inferiority for Anglophones to associate themselves with the wider Anglophone world?

As a group we consist of some of the most powerful, socially advanced and influential nations in the world. Our impact on humanity and the wider human community has been immense. To be proud of this is to suffer an inferiority complex?

Hispanophone and Francophone nations seem to be much more willing to celebrate their shared culture.

BoatMad

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

its long been a case that a small island like Ireland, once part of the Union, would tend to look to the UK and or the US as a role model. It in no way make one inferior , its a function of geography and history

I would suggest in my opinion that very few people " hate" irish, most simply think its irrelevant and that forms their opinion

Hate is too strong a word, I see no campaigns here to deny people access to the language that want to access it. I do see campaigns to allow those that feel its irrelevant to avoid any compulsory aspect of its teaching and I think its a fair point

The language advocates then try to paint such people as " haters"

Edit : people often say they hate the way it was taught etc , thats different to accusing them of " hating " the language

esforum

heroics wrote: »

Hated learning it in school. Could not see the point. The way way it was thought was also a joke. Not relevant at all. I got a lot better results in German than Irish even though only learned it for 5 years.

I also resented that it was compulsory as I am not language orientated but would have preferred to do an additional science subject for the leaving cert instead.

I could understand maths and English being compulsory as they may have some use in the future but unless you want to teach Irish what's the point.

This. Never actually needed Irish and pretty ****ty at languages in general but yet time after time Irish bit me in the ass.

Even now its causing me grief because its considered an important aspect of getting promoted in the public sector

esforum

esforum wrote: »

This. Never actually needed Irish and pretty ****ty at languages in general but yet time after time Irish bit me in the ass.

Even now its causing me grief because its considered an important aspect of getting promoted in the public sector

Not really, in my experience. There's separate streams and competitions if you want to do it that way but it wouldn't block anyone going through normal competitions. Essentially a bonus to have it, just like the leaving cert.

esforum

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really, in my experience. There's separate streams and competitions if you want to do it that way but it wouldn't block anyone going through normal competitions. Essentially a bonus to have it, just like the leaving cert.

You are required to have passed the civil service Irish competency exam to be promoted.

Probable there is certain waivers for the civil service in regards a high enough mark in the leaving for example, for Gardai if you get over 50% in your oral exam in Templemore you are considered 'competent' enough for promotion without taking the competency exam but for the thick fools like me, its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs and have never used it!!!

BoatMad

its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs!

err , it has a reason, its just you disagree with it.

age is no barrier to exams by the way

starry_eyed

The teacher we had was a very nice woman but realistically listening to her meandering aimless woes on her adolescence slightly put me off the actuality of learning. The therapy she received from out vacant faces would have otherwise cost her thousands. Still did quite well though and never hated Irish once I grew up and realised my heritage.

esforum

BoatMad wrote: »

err , it has a reason, its just you disagree with it.

age is no barrier to exams by the way

I said no real reason, being Irish is not a reason to force the language on me. What, for you, is the genuine and reasonable need to make me sit another exam in the Irish language? Surely to god my abilities to perform my actual job mixed with my existing skills and attributes should decide if I can apply for promotion, not a poxy language I have no desire or need to speak.

My age reflected how long I have survived without Irish. I have used French, Spanish and even the very basic German I know more than Irish.

BoatMad

esforum wrote: »

I said no real reason, being Irish is not a reason to force the language on me. What, for you, is the genuine and reasonable need to make me sit another exam in the Irish language? Surely to god my abilities to perform my actual job mixed with my existing skills and attributes should decide if I can apply for promotion, not a poxy language I have no desire or need to speak.

My age reflected how long I have survived without Irish. I have used French, Spanish and even the very basic German I know more than Irish.

I know, I know, but the fact is the job has that requirement and you are required to demonstrate that competency,

Should it have it, thats a debate , there are many issues involved in deciding promotion , not all are based on "existing skills and attributes", many people do whole postgraduate degrees for example just to bolster their promotion abilities even though on the face of it , its not required

esforum

esforum wrote: »

You are required to have passed the civil service Irish competency exam to be promoted.

Probable there is certain waivers for the civil service in regards a high enough mark in the leaving for example, for Gardai if you get over 50% in your oral exam in Templemore you are considered 'competent' enough for promotion without taking the competency exam but for the thick fools like me, its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs and have never used it!!!

Never came up for me yet but jaysus now you have me worried, where's me folens

Insect Overlord

Warning: 7 pints in. Not going to read 200 other posts at this stage. Apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said.

I quite like Irish. It came fairly easy to me, but I had no particular advantages. My dad only knows "bainne" and "scian", and my mother didn't have much more than that until she started helping us with homework. I was also born and raised in a city where Irish hasn't been the primary language for centuries.

I have friends who did Pass Irish for the Leaving Cert but they could have had great conversations in Irish if they were allowed to do the exams drunk.

Once people relax and just try to communicate it all becomes much easier. Forget the prose and poetry (unless you like them! I adored "Oíche Nollag na mBan") and just try to chat with other people, or do impressions of the tape test, or whatever. You'd be pleasantly surprised at how much of the thing you can still use.

There's no need to bring buzzwords like culture/politics/funding into it. Communication is the key.

Wanderer2010

It's a dying language that you only really need to be familiar with if you are working in certain jobs but outside of that you can have a perfectly normal life and not know a word of Irish. With the fading credibility of religion in our world I'm still surprised that our language is forced down the throat of our pupils and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of students never speak a word of it after their Leaving Cert. Despite what obnoxious reps of the Irish language would say, it really is dying and give it another generation or two and it will be irrelevant.

esforum

BoatMad wrote: »

I know, I know, but the fact is the job has that requirement and you are required to demonstrate that competency,

Should it have it, thats a debate , there are many issues involved in deciding promotion , not all are based on "existing skills and attributes", many people do whole postgraduate degrees for example just to bolster their promotion abilities even though on the face of it , its not required

Theres a difference between gaining a greater or higher education in a chosen field to give yourself an edge and making a needless subject mandatory. I would be very surprised if it became mandatory for someone in the shipping industry to have a degree in sociology as an example whereas it may be beneficial but optional to have a degree in freight and logistics.

Anyway, regardless its still a pain in my arse and a reason why I hate Irish.

Deleted User wrote: »

Never came up for me yet but jaysus now you have me worried, where's me folens

Perhaps you were one of the brainy ones? Ya bastard!

Its as said above, its being forced down my throat and at this stage I have developed such a dislike for the language I am hostile towards it. Maybe if it had been optional I might have been more receptive to learning it.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why must it be a symptom of inferiority for Anglophones to associate themselves with the wider Anglophone world?

As a group we consist of some of the most powerful, socially advanced and influential nations in the world. Our impact on humanity and the wider human community has been immense. To be proud of this is to suffer an inferiority complex?.

...well its good to see the 19th century mindset is still thriving. What were we saying about Irish? 'old fashioned useless nonsense' was it?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

...well its good to see the 19th century mindset is still thriving. What were we saying about Irish? 'old fashioned useless nonsense' was it?

A language is a tool of communication, if everyone who speaks Irish also speaks English then the language is by definition, useless.

Insect Overlord

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

With the fading credibility of religion in our world I'm still surprised that our language is forced down the throat of our pupils

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Despite what obnoxious reps of the Irish language would say, it really is dying and give it another generation or two and it will be irrelevant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A language is a tool of communication, if everyone who speaks Irish also speaks English then the language is by definition, useless.

The usual reductionist "what use is it" mentality that one can expect. Must be one of the benefits of being so proud of being an "Anglophone".

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

The usual reductionist "what use is it" mentality that one can expect. Must be one of the benefits of being so proud of being an "Anglophone".

English is my language, and it just so happens to be the most useful language in the world. I assume you aren't against you own first language?

Wanderer2010

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

With the fading credibility of religion in our world I'm still surprised that our language is forced down the throat of our pupils and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of students never speak a word of it after their Leaving Cert.

I'd say religion is flourishing in the Americas, Africa, lots of formerly Communist regimes etc.

But whether it is fading or not...what on earth is the connection between that and our language?

Galwayguy35

Peig Sayers.

That miserable oul wan put me off it for life.

At 16 being forced to learn about her depressing life on some island off the coast, no wonder everyone around her died she probably bored all of them to death.