Why do you hate Irish?

Trump4Prez

I think the best way to learn a language is to grow up around it. People learn languages out of necessity in their need to communicate. In Ireland we speak English, So Irish is unnecessary for us to communicate with each other in our daily lives so we have no need to learn it.

If you, For Example, had to live in China, You would learn Chinese because you need to in order to, communicate, live, survive in society.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Peig Sayers.

That miserable oul wan put me off it for life.

At 16 being forced to learn about her depressing life on some island off the coast, no wonder everyone around her died she probably bored all of them to death.

Did we read the same book?

I wouldn't say she was Little Miss Sunshine, but hardly miserable.

As for her life being depressing, was it? It was tough, it was simple, but depressing?

Galwayguy35

Deleted User wrote: »

Did we read the same book?

I wouldn't say she was Little Miss Sunshine, but hardly miserable.

As for her life being depressing, was it? It was tough, it was simple, but depressing?

My point is no teenager should have been forced to learn about it, same with poems that meant nothing to me.

As for Peig all she did was moan.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

My point is no teenager should have been forced to learn about it, same with poems that meant nothing to me.

As for Peig all she did was moan.

Ach, was forced to do maths, English, religion, geography, Irish etc for years in national school. After that, had more choices, but still had to do English, maths, Irish and the limitations in the school meant other subjects were pretty much prescribed.

I didn't grow up with some hatred for those topics at all. Nor do I resent them still. I just kinda got on with it and accept that part of a curriculum will usually be prescribed.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

Ach, was forced to do maths, English, religion, geography, Irish etc for years in national school. After that, had more choices, but still had to do English, maths, Irish and the limitations in the school meant other subjects were pretty much prescribed.

I didn't grow up with some hatred for those topics at all. Nor do I resent them still. I just kinda got on with it and accept that part of a curriculum will usually be prescribed.

If irish was given as much time as maths, english, religion or geography I wouldn't have as much problem. But in my school for example 50% or more of the day went to irish.

Also all those subjects are useful. Irish literally has no purpose.

Shep_Dog

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

Or perhaps such people are broad-minded and favour a language that allows them to communicate with a great many many people outside of Ireland.

Some of the arguments I see here for learning Irish come from 'Little Irelanders' who draw comfort from the populist chauvanistic slogans of the Gaelic Revival and its invention of a fictional Celtic master race, supposedly aesthetically and spritually superior to the Anglo Saxons.

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If irish was given as much time as maths, english, religion or geography I wouldn't have as much problem. But in my school for example 50% or more of the day went to irish.

Also all those subjects are useful. Irish literally has no purpose.

Jesus!

I can never remember it being more than an hour a day! I'd be certain that that was to do with your teacher rather than prescribed.

I guess you got that in national schools, depending on the preference of the teacher. My wife went to a school where they pretty much did nothing but music and singing all day.

Irish has been as much use to me as the maths and English I learned, more useful than geography, religion and so on.

Shep_Dog

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Some of the arguments I see here for learning Irish come from 'Little Irelanders' who draw comfort from the populist chauvanistic slogans of the Gaelic Revival and its invention of a fictional Celtic master race, supposedly aesthetically and spritually superior to the Anglo Saxons.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Could you identify them? Thanks. Otherwise your post sounds a bit passive aggressive - "some people are such and such, but no no not you",

Qualitymark

There's an agenda among the post-colonial self-haters who "hate Irish". What was it George Orwell is often quoted as saying: "The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

Iwasfrozen

Qualitymark wrote: »

There's an agenda among the post-colonial self-haters who "hate Irish". What was it George Orwell is often quoted as saying: "The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

I haven't seen one person here write they "hate" Irish. Many hate the way its taught, many [including me] hate the money spent on it or the time spent learning a useless language in school but I'd like you to show me one poster who said they "hate" the language.

Huntergonzo

It's a dead language with no practical use (bar the giddy tingle of thinking you're somehow more irish if you know cupla focal) and it's wasting time that could be better spent in the classroom, not a lot to like in fairness.

I'm all for choice though, if you like it then fairplay, that's your call but give me one practical reason why it should be compulsory rather than optional?

Qualitymark

Huntergonzo wrote: »

It's a dead language with no practical use (bar the giddy tingle of thinking you're somehow more irish if you know cupla focal) and it's wasting time that could be better spent in the classroom, not a lot to like in fairness.

I'm all for choice though, if you like it then fairplay, that's your call but give me one practical reason why it should be compulsory rather than optional?

Exactly what was said about Latin when it was taken off the curriculum.

Huntergonzo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Exactly what was said about Latin when it was taken off the curriculum.

In fairness I read your nonsense above about some post-colonial self hating agenda yadda yadda yadda. I'm very happy with being Irish, so much so that I don't feel the need to learn the language just for extra assurance. I'm as Irish as you'll ever be and always will be, deal with it

Shep_Dog

Deleted User wrote: »

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Could you identify them? Thanks. Otherwise your post sounds a bit passive aggressive - "some people are such and such, but no no not you",

Conradh na Gaeilge, a radical group, founded over a hundred years ago and which even today has many active cells, is dedicated to replacing Englsh with Irish as our common language, contains many such people. Take a look too, at the writings of one of that group's founders: Douglas Hyde. One can also look at the more militant elements of Sinn Fein for evidence of insular mindsets. Hint: the clue is in the name.

The whole premise of this thread assumes people hate Irish, but the OP offers no evidence of this.

Hotei

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But in my school for example 50% or more of the day went to irish.

That sounds rather implausible to be honest.

threein99

It's how they teach it is the problem, you just learn to pass tests you don't actually learn to speak the language. Number 1 strategy for passing Irish exams, looking for the question in the text it's based on, write down from the line before it starts to the line after it.

The King of Moo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Except we can. Immersion is not place names on signs, immersion is access to media, and we have access to Spanish and French media. Much more so than Irish. What everyday Irish do children pick up outside school? I can't think of any.

Learning Spanish and/or French improves a child's general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. In the latter case much more so as Spanish and French are both Romance languages and can aid in the acquisition of other Romance languages far more than Irish can.

A child thought Irish really well from a young age will be at a disadvantage learning French than a child thought Spanish really well from a young age.

There is no argument for Irish immersion learning over immersion learning in a useful language.

You want to perform some pretty impressive gymnastics to avoid Irish being taught.

First of all, Irish is not so different from Romance languages, especially Spanish. It just sounds very different. But children are probably learning languages with notable differences as it shows them that languages are systems and not copy-and-paste jobs, and improves their general mental flexibility.

Now, what you're talking about isn't really immersion. Of course children can access content in any language online, but how many children or parents are going to actively seek that out? And if they have to seek it out, it's not immersion. There's no harm in extra learning like that, of course, but if a child comes home and their parent takes out the laptop, sits it on front of them and says "Ok, now let's watch this fun cartoon en francais!" a lot of children will see that as an active learning experience where they're conscious of learning something. That will inhibit their learning and will put a lot of children off it. And that's all down to whether or not parents take the time to do that.
As I said before, it would be great if parents and teachers actively used resources like TG4, but children can still passively absorb a lot of Irish without that. Hearing a few words in Irish as they flick through the channels helps, as it shows them that it's a language that can be used in the everyday situations they're familiar with, without it being presented in an obvious learning environment. It's the same with children's characters on RTÉ throwing in the odd Irish word, which happened the last time I checked.

And there's the other forms of passive absorption, like seeing it on every sign and official document they come across, and occasionally hearing it used (if there are any parents here concerned about their children not learning well enough, use it at home: even if you only remember a few words and make mistakes, ask your kids some basic questions in Irish when they get home - it makes a big difference).

That's not full immersion, but it's still close to how other Europeans encounter English, through the English words they use, music, and film and TV to an extent. It's why Belgians generally have a higher standard of English than the French - they get a lot of American films with Flemish and French subtitles to cater for everyone, unlike in France where they're usually dubbed into French.

But if you're really set on French immersion, we'll need to change a few things. Having All - French schools is the obvious and best move. I'm sure it's not hard to find teachers qualified to teach every subject through French. You'll need French TV and radio stations readily accessible for children to passively encounter. You'll have to change all the Irish on signs and businesses to French, and have people actively speaking French in there daily lives from children to pick up.
And we'll still have to overhaul how we train teachers to teach languages. This is a massive problem with how Irish is often taught, and there'll be no point changing Irish to French if we're not going to focus on engagement, passive grammar learning, production through speaking and consolidation.

Apart from that, there shouldn't be any problems massively changing our country to ensure children are immersed in French.

Vive l'immersion!

Qualitymark

Huntergonzo wrote: »

In fairness I read your nonsense above about some post-colonial self hating agenda yadda yadda yadda. I'm very happy with being Irish, so much so that I don't feel the need to learn the language just for extra assurance. I'm as Irish as you'll ever be and always will be, deal with it

And every nursery rhyme you teach your children is English, every weather saying, every proverb…

mickstupp

Qualitymark wrote: »

Exactly what was said about Latin when it was taken off the curriculum.

It wasn't. It's still taught. Granted in very few schools, unlike on the continent. But it's still taught, you can do it for the Leaving last I checked.

I only have a year of Latin, but I know far more of that than I do after thirteen years of Irish. Five years of French and five of Greek and it's the same story there. I was going to say I hate Irish, but a poster a page or two back was more accurate. I don't hate Irish, I hate how it was 'taught', and I hate how it was forced on us, with no thought to explaining things properly.

I don't know if text books or teachers have improved over the years, but it wasn't until two years ago, randomly on a bus, that I heard Irish had a genitive case. Twenty years after my leaving cert. I know from studying other languages that grammatical understanding helps me personally learn a lot more. But the way I was taught Irish, it was like I was expected to learn it by some magical osmosis, just somehow tap into my native Irishness and let the language loose! No.

Huntergonzo

Qualitymark wrote: »

And every nursery rhyme you teach your children is English, every weather saying, every proverb…

So? I don't have children btw but if I did surely it wouldn't matter what language I teach them in once I'm teaching them to be good people. Anyway language is just a verbal form of communication, why the emotional attachment to particular ones?

Qualitymark

mickstupp wrote: »

I only have a year of Latin, but I know far more of that than I do after thirteen years of Irish. Five years of French and five of Greek and it's the same story there. I was going to say I hate Irish, but a poster a page or two back was more accurate. I don't hate Irish, I hate how it was 'taught', and I hate how it was forced on us, with no thought to explaining things properly.

In what way were you taught the different languages differently?

Huntergonzo wrote: »

So? I don't have children btw but if I did surely it wouldn't matter what language I teach them in once I'm teaching them to be good people. Anyway language is just a verbal form of communication, why the emotional attachment to particular ones?

Do you think the whole world should speak English?

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Did we read the same book?

I wouldn't say she was Little Miss Sunshine, but hardly miserable.

As for her life being depressing, was it? It was tough, it was simple, but depressing?

In fairness I had to suffer it back in the early 80's, but yeah it was pretty depressing, for me and my peers anyway. It had zero relevance to our urban lives. TBH that's what most of us felt about Irish itself. It was this rural thing, somebody else's thing. Peig's life was about as relevant as reading of some south sea islander, only the latter at least would have been exotic and sunny. Today there has been a fair attempt to make Irish relevant to people and that's a good thing.

ted1

Huntergonzo wrote: »

It's a dead language with no practical use (bar the giddy tingle of thinking you're somehow more irish if you know cupla focal) and it's wasting time that could be better spent in the classroom, not a lot to like in fairness.

I'm all for choice though, if you like it then fairplay, that's your call but give me one practical reason why it should be compulsory rather than optional?

Utter rubbish. In garlscoils no time is wasted on leaving the language. All subjects are taught through Irish, immersion is the best way to teach a language.

Qualitymark

Those who say the way they were taught Irish turned them off it: how should Irish be taught?

xband

It's all about how it's taught.

Language teaching here generally is abysmal given that people come out of school with 6 years of continental languages and are often unable to hold even the most basic conversation.

My experience of Irish learning was pretty poor. I just remember starting out not understanding the grammar, nobody explaining the concepts, teaching grammar by rote and chanting and general bad humoured, dull methods.

Language needs to start with talking. We still tend to teach it from an overly technical point of view.

Also Ireland is far too language heavy on college entrance requirements. I know two people who went to university abroad because they were scientifically / mathematically oriented but were being forced to do English (literature mostly at HL), Irish and a modern European language.

They got A1 in maths, physics and applied maths but didn't get into university here to do a degree in physics!!

In one case failed pass Irish and the other failed French.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Qualitymark wrote: »

Those who say the way they were taught Irish turned them off it: how should Irish be taught?

As a language to be enjoyed and not as a school subject to pass exams in. Simple.

Also don't force it on them. Teenagers do not react well to something fits in them. If you HAVE to force it, think about it: 'why is it nessecary to force it?'

(Also, stop using **** like shrugging off colonialism and shared identity and history: that's just condescending and puts us all off it)

HIB

Hotei wrote: »

That sounds rather implausible to be honest.

Its actually not. I can back up this claim. I still remember how the day went in my NS.
9-11 Irish
11 - 11.15 Small break
11.15 - 12.30 Maths
12.30 - 1 Lunch
1-3 English, Geography, History, Science&Nature,Religion. This was rotated around. One of these was done each day. In communion/confirmation years, it was almost always religion.

So out of 5 teaching hours, we spent 2 doing Irish. So 40%.
I wouldn't say learning Irish is a total waste, but 40% of the day, everyday .....ridiculuous. I hope it has changed.

ted1

The King of Moo wrote: »

I covered that: you can't get immersion in French and Spanish in Ireland. Unless we change the Irish on every sign and import lots of French or Spanish speakers, we won't be able to teach either language effectively.
It simply makes most sense to teach Irish at primary level (only as a compulsory subject then, optional at Second level) because there's more everyday Irish for children to passive absorb, which is essential for children. It's basically the principle behind gaelscoils and summer schools in the Gaeltacht in a much broader sense.

There's plenty of time for children to be learning languages for business and work reasons when they're teenagers. Before then it should be about improving their general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. A child taught Irish really well will probably learn French better over five years as a teenager than one who had to learn it from four or five-years old.

My niece goes to a Frwnch primary school in Dublin. She's immersed in it and is fluent, the same way that my kids and their other cousins are fluent in Irish from Gaelscoils.

Once you have a second language it's very easy to pick up other languages. As the main part of being fluent is being able to understand how to think in the language as oppose to trying to translate the language from your first language

HIB

esforum wrote: »

You are required to have passed the civil service Irish competency exam to be promoted.

Probable there is certain waivers for the civil service in regards a high enough mark in the leaving for example, for Gardai if you get over 50% in your oral exam in Templemore you are considered 'competent' enough for promotion without taking the competency exam but for the thick fools like me, its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs and have never used it!!!

Wow. I never knew that. That is seriously unfair.

Qualitymark

HIB wrote: »

Wow. I never knew that. That is seriously unfair.

It's seriously unfair not to hire people who've studied a subject for 13 years without learning it for a job that requires intelligence? Surely it's not really setting the bar that high