Why do you hate Irish?

ToddyDoody

LeinsterDub wrote: »

More needs to be said because that post means nothing. What is it you think my username is implying about Irish?

I'm sure this has changed a bit in the last while but generally the perception has been that no-one in Dublin has any time for Gaeilge.

kefir32

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Somebody ignorantly spoke on behalf of the entire country, and I was telling him he was incorrect. How is that fighting? Is that all you want to do, win, for your ego?

You are incorrect !!!Ego ? Wrong!!!!!!!!! Pragmatic yes!!!!!!!!

Dirty Dingus McGee

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Fair enough, but any time I hear someone taking out national pride I always laugh and think of this quote:

https://louiseinperson.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/most-enjoyable-george/george-carlin-quote-on-ethnic-and-national-pride/

It's not about having pride in being born somewhere for that reason alone.

It's about having pride in your surroundings and wanting to make it as good as it can be.

I am sure most people would look unfavorably upon families who would allow their children to go to school poorly clothed or having their house looking in a shabby condition.

The same applies on a larger scale on not wanting the country you live in to be as good as it can be.

HIB

Del.Monte wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Surely, if you bothered to read my post you would have understood what I meant?

Ireland consists of people from many different backgrounds - never more so - and the Irish language is the national language of those who are descended from 'genuine' natives (if there is such a thing). How is the Irish language the national language of the descendants of Norman, Planter, Cromwellian or Williamite stock? I know that it's not PC to hold this view but it's doesn't invalidate it.

And for that matter, the thousands, probably tens of thousands of Irish children born to foreign parents. Eastern Europeans etc.
I suppose the gaelgori would have us believe that to truly identify with the country of their birth, they must know their lioms from their leats and leos.

ligertigon

I hate it because its like American English. The language "Irish" is Gaelic, and spoken in Scotland. Here, we have commondeered it as our own language, and called it Irish. Its not, its Gaelic

Dirty Dingus McGee

ligertigon wrote: »

I hate it because its like American English. The language "Irish" is Gaelic, and spoken in Scotland. Here, we have commondeered it as our own language, and called it Irish. Its not, its Gaelic

What is wrong with American English? It's not much different to the version of it we speak in Ireland.

Gaeilge is the name of the language and Irish is just the English language/colloquial name given to it.

Caoimhgh1n

ligertigon wrote: »

I hate it because its like American English. The language "Irish" is Gaelic, and spoken in Scotland. Here, we have commondeered it as our own language, and called it Irish. Its not, its Gaelic

Scottish people call it Gàidhlig (Pronounced Gaelic), usually, or so I was told by a Scottish friend of mine.

Irish is Irish.

Huntergonzo

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It's not about having pride in being born somewhere for that reason alone.

It's about having pride in your surroundings and wanting to make it as good as it can be.

I am sure most people would look unfavorably upon families who would allow their children to go to school poorly clothed or having their house looking in a shabby condition.

The same applies on a larger scale on not wanting the country you live in to be as good as it can be.

Fair enough, I see what you're saying, we all want the best possible society so we can all benefit. We have a good standard of living in Ireland no doubt but I certainly wouldn't be proud of this country given some of our very harsh conservative laws and widespread religious discrimination in our publicly funded schools, in fact I'm ashamed of our country on those fronts.

We have potential but there's a long why to go for this country and anyway I think excessive pride can lead to complacency, there's always something that can be improved.

BTW I'm not sure about looking down unfavourably upon families who allow their children to go to school poorly clothed or having their house looking in a shabby condition. I know on the surface it may look like neglect and quite often it is (which deserves little sympathy for the parents) but also you never really know their circumstances, they may need help rather than judgement!

Iwasfrozen

smurgen wrote: »

it's the very definition of collective achievement.contries do not become great by accident.we are regularly in the top 10 for index of livings.I am happy that I am irish.

Well no. It's more a fluke of geography than colkective achievement of the inhabitants. If Ireland were an island off the coast of Tanzania it would not be such a good place to live Guns Germs and Steel is a very good book on this topic.

Am I supposed to be proud the dice landed in my ancestors favor. Yey I guess?

ligertigon

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

What is wrong with American English? It's not much different to the version of it we speak in Ireland.

Gaeilge is the name of the language and Irish is just the English language/colloquial name given to it.

Agreed, its just the disingenuous way we proclaim it as ours, unique, no one elses.


The original spelling of the chemical element sulfur, was sulphur (english) the americans used sulfur. The international IUPAC chemical society needed only one version.... they chose sulfur. The original language lost out. However, aluminim was outlawed for aluminium, but the yanks refused.

Coles

@Wibbs, Your standard of debate is very poor. You're like some hysterical auld one lashing out with insults and ignorance.

It's funny, but not very constructive.

I have no interest in debating at that level for the obvious reasons. Calling me a 'Little Irelander' for pointing out that there is a strong correlation between poor academic grades and a hatred for a subject is a bit off. And what does it achieve to say that I have a 'blinkered worldview'. You don't know my 'worldview', and I'm not the one preaching hate and ignorance, the very defining characteristics of a 'blinkered worldview'!

You constantly equate Irishness with negativity and backwardness. It's odd to see that kind of self loathing but to be honest, I can't help you. I can love my heritage and my country while also loving other cultures.

Anyway, less insults. More debate.

Huntergonzo

@Coles

You don't seem too interested in debate yourself Coles and you don't seem to have a real problem with insults either, I pulled you up on a post earlier and you never got back to me. Here they are if you're still interested:

You:

If you said that you hated History or Geography most people would dismiss you as being an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability. I think the same is true about people who say they 'hate Irish'.

My response:

Ha you see, didn't take long for somebody to get upset. "Most people" is a huge presumption on your behalf btw, how do you know how "most people" on this Island would react???

So anyway what you're telling me is you've never met anybody who wasn't "an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability" say the words, 'I hate x (enter subject)", can't say I believe you Coles, I think you're lying to me!

Coles

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ireland consists of people from many different backgrounds - never more so - and the Irish language is the national language of those who are descended from 'genuine' natives (if there is such a thing). How is the Irish language the national language of the descendants of Norman, Planter, Cromwellian or Williamite stock? I know that it's not PC to hold this view but it's doesn't invalidate it.

Because those lines of your ancestry are extremely diluted now! I'm not saying that to hurt your feelings, but it's true. Of course you can select the line of your ancestry to push to the fore, but you should also be aware of the ancestry that you are choosing to push away from you. If you go back 15 generations (just 300 years) you have 33000 distinct lines of ancestry. It really doesn't matter if you now choose to regard yourself as 'Cromwellian', most of those lines of ancestry spoke Irish!

'Stock'! Lol!

Coles

Huntergonzo wrote: »

@Coles

You don't seem too interested in debate yourself Coles and you don't seem to have a real problem with insults either, I pulled you up on a post earlier and you never got back to me. Here they are if you're still interested:

You:

If you said that you hated History or Geography most people would dismiss you as being an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability. I think the same is true about people who say they 'hate Irish'.

My response:

Ha you see, didn't take long for somebody to get upset. "Most people" is a huge presumption on your behalf btw, how do you know how "most people" on this Island would react???

So anyway what you're telling me is you've never met anybody who wasn't "an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability" say the words, 'I hate x (enter subject)", can't say I believe you Coles, I think you're lying to me!

Listen son. Normal adults don't actually say that they 'hate' subjects. Kids say things like that and when they mature into big people they realise their failure was their own fault.

Huntergonzo

Coles wrote: »

Listen son. Normal adults don't actually say that they 'hate' subjects. Kids say things like that and when they mature into big people they realise their failure was their own fault.

Haha righteo so, whatever you say horsebox :-)

kefir32

Coles u sound like the biggest haemorrhoid goin pal

Huntergonzo

kefir32 wrote: »

Coles u sound like the biggest haemorrhoid goin pal

Nah give him a like, the man is clearly a genius

kefir32

Ha too true ! The man sounds like a complete prodigy

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

@Wibbs, Your standard of debate is very poor. You're like some hysterical auld one lashing out with insults and ignorance.

Good god, you're actually serious. :pac: Man there's an awful lot of projection fulfilment going on here. OK, let's break out the crayons…

Point out one instance where I said I hated Irish, never mind preached same. Just one will do and no, "speak" doesn't have the same meaning as "hate".

And what does it achieve to say that I have a 'blinkered worldview'. You don't know my 'worldview',

Your worldview is about the most obvious thing about you in this thread. Regardless, when somebody assumes that another hates something in the face of actual text to the contrary just because it fits their narrative to do so, what would you call it?

You constantly equate Irishness with negativity and backwardness.

Again show me where I do this. Unlike in your worldview I don't equate the Irish language as an essential part of what it is to be Irish, so maybe that's where your confusion stems? Though I have never, in any of these dopey threads that come around like night follows day, said that I wanted the Irish language to die. Indeed I have more than once stated that IMH it won't for the foreseeable future. The only thing I have said about the Irish language was that it was of little or no relevance for me or my peers beyond our schooling. And I'd hardly be alone in that.

Huntergonzo

kefir32 wrote: »

Ha too true ! The man sounds like a complete prodigy

Either way he's out of our league, right I'm off to stick a few pencils up me nose and pot on me head and give it a few bangs of a spoon, I've been intellectually floored!

LordSutch

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ireland consists of people from many different backgrounds - never more so - and the Irish language is the national language of those who are descended from 'genuine' natives (if there is such a thing). How is the Irish language the national language of the descendants of Norman, Planter, Cromwellian or Williamite stock? I know that it's not PC to hold this view but it's doesn't invalidate it.

That's a very good point indeed, and when we exited the UK in 1922 we had more or less settled on English as a collective language for all of us, no matter what cultural background we had, be it Norman, Planter, Cromwellian, Williamite, etc . . . . then in the 1920s it was decided that we would all be Gaelic, and that Irish (not English) would be our 1st language :cool:

The ninety year old experiment has not worked.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

That's a very good point indeed, and when we exited the UK in 1922 we had more or less settled on English as a collective language for all of us, no matter what cultural background we had, be it Norman, Planter, Cromwellian, Williamite, etc . . . . then in the 1920s it was decided that we would all be Gaelic, and that Irish (not English) would be our 1st language :cool:

The ninety year old experiment has not worked.

We did? There was a vote?

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

We did? There was a vote?

Are you suggesting otherwise?

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Are you suggesting otherwise?

But there was no group decision and no vote. The language was systematically discriminated against for centuries, became associated with rural poverty and backwardness, and was decimated by emigration. This "we had more or less settled" line is a load of crap.

LordSutch

English was by far the main form of communicatiuon in Ireland in the 1920s, surely you can't argue with that? I think you're heading down a dead end there Noddin. Del.Monte is right.

TheBigEvil

I wouldn't say I hate Irish, certainly i didn't enjoy it in school.

We are naturally English speaking, and I don't think it should be bothered with anymore, even at school level. If people want to learn it, then let them go to the schools in the Gaeltacht which cater for it properly, immerse themselves in it, and learn it way better than they would in school here.

I just find it a pointless language, and has no application other than for people to say it's part of or culture/heritage. It can never be used outside of this country. No one in Europe is going to want to go and learn Irish as a second language, unlike us looking to learn French, Spanish, German, etc as a second language.

If this country had back in the 1920s removed English as our first language, via the educational system, and made Irish our first language (speaking it, writing it all the time), then we would be a back-water country on the periphery of Europe and would not have any of the investment and jobs from the English speaking world that we enjoy today. All of those jobs

It annoys me the amount of money this country wastes in having things in Irish and English, from road signs, to government documents, legislation and things like passports and driving licences etc.

English is our National language and I for one am glad it is!

SMJSF

I could never understand it in school.
To me it was utterly pointless because you don't actually need it for anything except: teaching or the gardai.

School is to learn stuff for secondary school, secondary school is for general knowledge and college, college is to learn a way of learning (degree) and for a profession.

Everything else in school is what we are going to use at sometime in our lives: maths, geography, SPHE, CSPE, Home ec, etc.

Sure in LCA I learnt more Spanish in a 2 hour class every week for 5th year than I learned Irish in the previous 13 years!

Hammer89

Is mise Bart Simpson.

Dirty Dingus McGee

SMJSF wrote: »

I could never understand it in school.
To me it was utterly pointless because you don't actually need it for anything except: teaching or the gardai.

School is to learn stuff for secondary school, secondary school is for general knowledge and college, college is to learn a way of learning (degree) and for a profession.

Everything else in school is what we are going to use at sometime in our lives: maths, geography, SPHE, CSPE, Home ec, etc.

Sure in LCA I learnt more Spanish in a 2 hour class every week for 5th year than I learned Irish in the previous 13 years!

Anything above primary school level in those subjects you don't need . CSPE is a complete and utter waste of time and i never did SPHE but from reading a brief description of what it sounds like something your parents should be passing on to you not the education system.

Dirty Dingus McGee

TheBigEvil wrote: »

I wouldn't say I hate Irish, certainly i didn't enjoy it in school.

We are naturally English speaking, and I don't think it should be bothered with anymore, even at school level. If people want to learn it, then let them go to the schools in the Gaeltacht which cater for it properly, immerse themselves in it, and learn it way better than they would in school here.

I just find it a pointless language, and has no application other than for people to say it's part of or culture/heritage. It can never be used outside of this country. No one in Europe is going to want to go and learn Irish as a second language, unlike us looking to learn French, Spanish, German, etc as a second language.

If this country had back in the 1920s removed English as our first language, via the educational system, and made Irish our first language (speaking it, writing it all the time), then we would be a back-water country on the periphery of Europe and would not have any of the investment and jobs from the English speaking world that we enjoy today. All of those jobs

It annoys me the amount of money this country wastes in having things in Irish and English, from road signs, to government documents, legislation and things like passports and driving licences etc.

English is our National language and I for one am glad it is!

Or we'd be a completely bilingual country.